Hi 

I came across this document on the internet.. where it states that the unconsciousness could happen anywhere between few minutes to few days... "non-being" 
However, could this happen just like  less than even a 1/2 a second "lights off and back on" in speed.. ?

If one can repeat this same experience but the duration is as speed, very fast.. 

Then what is that?

The Duration of Fruition thing...

Bill Hamilton used to talk about this. Apparently, he could stay in Fruition for up to about an hour, if memory serves.

For the vast majority, Fruition is very, very quick, a monent or two, nothing more. For a few who have very strong concentration and the talent for it, it can last longer.

Not everyone can get Fruitions that last any appreciable duration. I myself might have done this a few times in the late 90's when I was really striving for such things, but I can't be certain, as there is no sense of the passage of time "during" a Fruition, as there is no sense of anything at all, but one can get a sense of the amount of frames edited out when things glitched out by external factors. Duration clearly isn't among my natural talents.

However, to be really certain, it either has to last for a substantially long period such that the external difference in circumstances is so glaring that one couldn't miss that "duration" has occurred, or one has to do something like attain to it while contemplating a clock face or digital clock, such that one can see the change in the hands or the numbers when reality reboots.

Thank you Daniel.

The less than 1/2 second theory was just an illustration but yes, the time cannot be measured as there is "non-being", it's like the computer just blanks off and restart again sort of a thing.. but because it happens very very quickly one feels one's consciousness is there...(one is aware before, then ----, and then back on aware again)  but in fact not there... like falling into a pit and back again in a less than 1/2 a second or even less (few moments). 

Can you give any practical methods to make the duration a little longer?

Appreciate it very much your response. 

Thanks
Anna 

Mahasi Sayadaw recommends that, if one has sufficiently strong concentration and mature level of insight, one simply needs to set a strong resolution to stay absorbed in the fruition for a certain period of time - and then that´s what happens. I am really curious to find out if it can work that way...

re: Caro (1/21/16 10:59 PM as a reply to ANNA AIYAR)

"Mahasi Sayadaw recommends that, if one has sufficiently strong concentration and mature level of insight, one simply needs to set a strong resolution to stay absorbed in the fruition for a certain period of time - and then that´s what happens. I am really curious to find out if it can work that way..."

This resembles that one of the "5 masteries of concentration (jhana)" in the Visudhimagga (Vism. V.131-134) – mastery of resolving, or determining at entry the exact duration of absorption. Pa Auk Sayadaw, for one, teaches this, and one of his students (Shaila Catherine) vouches for that kind of mastery.

Someone (I think it was Thanissaro Bhikkhu) recounted how a very experienced monk used jhanic absorption in lieu of ansethesia for a major surgery. He asked before how long it would take, and programmed his absortion for that time. The procedure ended up taking longer. He emerged at the predetermined time, and, finding it not finished, asked how much longer, reset his resolve, and went back "under" for the duration.

Now I know the topic here is fruition, not jhana (of the absorption variety) per se, but there is that peculiar Abhidhamma notion of "change of lineage" of the mind's object, that takes place as the final javanna phase of the "cognitive series" of micro mind-moments thatmake up discrete citta moments/processes. This is said to occur only in two specific citta-s:
1) jhanic absorption, where the "limited (sense-sphere)" lineage is transcended into the "exalted (fine-material-sphere)" lineage (Vism. IV.74); and
2) "fruition attainment" (Vism. XXIII.6-7), "change-of-lineage … through insight" – it looks like it's when the mind takes nibbana as object, so to speak.

Mahasi Sayadaw does consider vipassana khanika samadhi, at it's best, as fully equivalent in intensity of concentration to jhanic concentration (the two as alternative approaches), and that level of vipassana is likely at hand at such path moments. So perhaps an analogous sort of "mastery" is what he's referring to.

1) jhanic absorption - where the "limited (sense-sphere)" lineage is transcended into the "exalted (fine-material-sphere)" - this experience is like a "take off", again happens unexpectedly when it sort of jumps from one step to another but awareness remains throughout the transition,  and different to Fruition attainment "I" think.... 

2) "fruition attainment" (Vism. XXIII.6-7), "change-of-lineage … through insight" – it looks like it's when the mind takes nibbana as object, so to speak. - According to Vism. "when the mind takes nibbana as object" what does it mean? can you explain this in a little more detail.

My take is that SE is very early stage on the path, so would a Yogi be able to just enter repetitive Fruitions straight away? without mastering it properly... 

Does Vism has some kind of a "test" to find out oneself?

Daniels MCTB fruition section one line says "Reality stops cold and then reappears." which makes sense... (http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+15.+Fruition) but can a SE be able to repeat over and over on each meditation sitting ?



 


 

Hello Anna,

Cessation or nirvikalpa samadhi was a hot potato for years for me. At some point I had an aha moment when I realised that I had had short cessation for thousands and thousands of times all throughout my childhood and youth. For almost 3 decades I didn't know what these moments of complete cessation were but the profound effect I was able to notice. Sometimes I even thought I was going crazy as after the lights came back familiar things and their concepts seemed unknown to me.

In my case cessations kept happening spontanously for years even during when I practiced a lot of sitting meditation (zen and later tantric yoga)every day. It didn't happen during practice which is kind of interesting. The first longer cessation took place when stream entry took place. Afterwards I found out that it lasted for about 1½ hours.

I've noticed a change in the quality of these cessations. During childhood, teen years and all the way up to few years ago (I'm 36 now), it was a dramatic shift. As if very dramatically electricity goes out in a media building... and then comes back on like a drowning person gasps for air. There was this treshold to it and from it that was steep. But this treshold was worn off during the last few years. Now it is barely noticeable but subtly there. Last summer during a retreat with close students, there was longest so far cessations which lasted for about 3 hours in a row.

In yoga they speak of two kinds of cessation: 1. kevala nirvikalpa samadhi and 2. sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. Simple translations 1. yogic cessation and 2. natural cessation are descriptive. The state of cessation is the same but the way how it happens because of the treshold wearing effect of the previous cessation, is where the difference is. I heard Tulku Urgyen say about the original state/the mind of a buddha, that there is  "no arising and no cessation". In my understanding this no cessation is the same as natural cessation as there is no more cessation taking place.

If you are interested in a specific technique that I practice and teach others for (partially) this purpose, go here and read the two texts on Space Gazing:
http://guruslight.blogspot.fi/2015/11/more-secret-instructions-on-space-gazing.html


Sure but I'd say that "strong" concentration gives a bit false idea how to go about it. If you clench your fist and tighten your asshole to have a "strong" intention to make cessation happen, you might end up getting hemorrhoids instead of cessation, ha. Mature level on insight? Surely so.

I don't know the Vedantic systems  but will check the link out. Thank you for sharing.. 

regarding the cessations happening at longer periods 3 hrs etc. I heard that this is Nirodha Samapaththi in Theravada maps and only an Anagami or an Arahat can get into this state. 

Stream Entry attainment cessation is I tend to agree with Daniel as follows - an instant moment only. 

so nirvikalpa samadhi meaning the same thing? 
 

Interesting. I think I see what you mean. I was recently at a meditation centre in the Mahasi tradition in Burma. The monks there put a very strong emphasis on concentration, not only momementary concentration but also deep samadhi. To me that gave a new depth to the vipassana practice. I would guess that these monks can do the extended absorption in fruition.

That´s not what I meant with strong concentration. Maye "deep concentration" would be the better term: a type of concentration that requires specifically that one gives up the "clenching of the fist".

Anna,

The practice of space gazing described in the text is also practiced in dzogchen identically.

"Nirodha samapatti" works equally well for nirvikalpa or cessation. It's the same thing, not matter which school of philosophy one prefers. And me personally am not a fan of vedanta/hinduism, at all.

Having had numerous short cessations since being a kid, I draw the conclusion that cessation doesn't always result in stream entry. I don't know if anyone ever claimed that by in my experience, it doesn't.

Right, of course. Also the explosive fist clenching type of concentration exists. Here we are dealing wih subtle concentration, effortless concentration/mindfulness.

Pawel,

If it wasn't clear enough, in my view nirvikalpa samadhi is the same what buddhists call nirodha or cessation. And which in my exp has two stages. Now that I think about it I see why this term of nirvikalpa samadhi might be seen as hinduist. I remember that is has hindu vedanta connotations to it. But... in my mind it has nothing to do with hinduism. I have just used it as a non-sectarian term.

However, whatever hindus say nirvikalpa is, it should refer to the same kind of cessation as in buddhism. If they say it is something different, they are mistaken. But talking about the confusion of the hindus is a whole another discussion...

re: ANNA AIYAR (1/22/16 1:42 PM as a reply to Chris J Macie)

"1) jhanic absorption - where the "limited (sense-sphere)" lineage is transcended into the "exalted (fine-material-sphere)" - this experience is like a "take off", again happens unexpectedly when it sort of jumps from one step to another but awareness remains throughout the transition,  and different to Fruition attainment "I" think.... "

Clearly it is different. Jhanic absorption involves an unmistakable change of dimension, so to speak, but holds mindfulness all the way through.

"2) "fruition attainment" (Vism. XXIII.6-7), "change-of-lineage … through insight" – it looks like it's when the mind takes nibbana as object, so to speak. - According to Vism. "when the mind takes nibbana as object" what does it mean? can you explain this in a little more detail."

That is a manner of speaking about an experience that can be spoken about only 'apophatically' -- by way of what it's not. "Take nibbana as object" is s/t used as a sort of metaphor. It is found in the Abhidhamma schema that there are 4 "ultimate realities" of experience: 1) material (rupa), 2) mental qualities (cestasika), 3) discrete mental states/processes (citta), and 4) th eunconditioned (nibbana). The mind directs itself to the 1st three as 'objects' of self-reflective observation. The 4th is 'touched', with a cessation of normal mental directed action, suspension of intention (kamma) altogether – release, unbinding. Books have been written about this, with all the various sutta descriptions. E.g. Chapter 7 of Thanissaro Bhikkhu's The Paradox of Becoming (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/paradoxofbecoming.pdf).

"My take is that SE is very early stage on the path, so would a Yogi be able to just enter repetitive Fruitions straight away? without mastering it properly...  Does Vism has some kind of a "test" to find out oneself?"

I favor the understanding that judging such things happens usually in working closely with a teacher who knows the territory; that the Pali Canon (suttas, commentaries incl. Vism., etc.) are all memory aides evolved in what has been (and still is) basically an oral, person-to-person tradition.

Also, the notion of "cessation" is thrown around in a lot of different senses these days, as, for instance, in this discussion thread.

There is this Sutta called 

Cula-suññata Sutta where Buddha talks to Ven. Ananda and describes how himself abide in this voidness all the time.. on a day to day basis in the oridinary life activities... 

It's a very deep Sutta and trying to put into words and explain could be a challenge... however if anyone has experience and the knowledge one can sort of get an idea what Buddha trying to say in this Sutta. 

actually if one can through one's own experience and through one's own understanding of the theoratical wisdom can explain this sutta in simple details, I think many can benefit. 

Pawel,

Now. Who told you those definitions of those samadhis? God? Ecstasy? Seriously, dude... I find such definitions of nirvikalpa samadhi very misleading, like all the stuff from hindu swamis and paramahamsas. They clearly didn't know what they were talking about. Like Sivananda and many others.

To underline my point, I use nirvikalpa as a synonym for cessation or nirodha.

No, kundalini per se is not produced in the sahasrara (or in the centers above the crown). There indeed is energy which does rise up in the central channel and that is called kundalini. However, there is another kind of energy called shankali or call it what you will that does descend from the centers above the crown and further into the heart (below the crown). These two, the ascending and descending current meet and become mixed, when the kundalini rises up the spine and high above the crown, meets with shankalini and then come down together, to take a seat in the heart and from there vanish altogether. After this event, there are no sensations of rising or coming down in the spine. This is how I have experienced it. That's also what my teacher Sivakami and Ramana Maharishi have said.

To destroy parts of the mind? Well... that sounds healthy.

Who do you refer to as "inventors of hinduism"? And where is the nirvikalpa definition from?

I don't mean to start a pissing contest nor twist arm about points that we might simply disagree but... I studied closely with several mahasiddhas from the hindu tradition for years and at some point was asked to teach others. I had a physical guru who put me into connection with these non-physical master, mahasiddhas. I received instuction, advice and numerous different kinds of transmission from them. So I'd say I have a quite clear picture what the founding or "inventing" mahasiddhas of the hindu tradition mean or don't mean. Actually, my definition of kevala and sahaja states (above) are from one of them called Babaji (the same who was featured in Yogananda's autobiography). I've also studied the hindu scene and it's many teachers of the last 150 years in significant detail. The non-physical mahasiddhas are one thing but the physical teachers, gurus, sadhus and whatever are another one... completely. It is a rarity to find a swami, paramahamsa or whatever guru who is even awakened. They sure have ways of developing powers but they are still entirely deluded. The situation is really bad there and has been for a long time.

Just last December I went to India to visit an ashram there, Amritapuri which is the Hugging Saint's place. There were about 20-30 different swamis there from both the house organisation and visiting ones. To me it seemed, studied from distance all these monks, that only one among all of them was awakened. He was an Italian born sadhu who had spent all his life in India. We had a nice exchange with him, as we knew each other from a previous life, a joyful connection. He also remembered it. But anyway.

I used to take all those hindu swamis like Sivananda, Vivekananda, Yogananda, Swami Rama and many others really seriously... until I found out that extremely few of them had even initial insight.

The final point is that based on my studies with both several hindu and buddhist mahasiddhas, I express the view that nirvikalpa is the same as nirodha. I do not say this based on the religious or philosophical literature or doctrinal debate of this topic but on teachings received directly from the masters, from both "camps". That's it.

 
 

Pawel,

Awakening is an insight into the empty nature of the self. To be more descriptive, a perceptional shift takes place when the sense of me or I is seen to be a mere stubborn delusion and when this delusion drops off. I have written about this at length in my posts.

By talking about my connection with non-physical masters I don't mean anything "special" by it. At the same time I am aware that it is quite rare for people to have such a connection and a "direct line" to masters such as Machig Labdron, Babaji and others where I can receive teachings and information from them as people ordinarily do from live teachers.

My connection to such mahasiddhas began when I was a small kid of just few years old. These masters kept coming to me in the form of powerful energetic presence and clear awareness (which physical mahasiddhas also have) that I felt in my bodymind, as an answer to my prayers for peace in my family and world peace. Nobody taught me how to connect with them or how to pray and do breathing practices. I just started doing them when I was about 4 years old.

The mentioned Babaji was the primary master who kept answering my prayers and came to give his support when I felt deep sadness and pain because of the people around me. During those moments of pain, I went to sit at my bedside, started praying and *zap, the room would become filled with bright light and my mind state shifted altogether. This happened perhaps once or twice every week all through my childhood and youth. I also had short cessations (nirodha) happening numerous times. However I didn't understand what happened during these moments of mahasiddhas coming to shower me with their blessings or when cessations took place...

...Until several years into tantric practice at the age of about 28 years old. When I got to know of Babaji, guru yoga and started doing his nama mantra whicj instantly filled my bodymind with that same energy and shift of mind, I figured that he had been with me at all those numerous times from childhood. And that he specifically had guided me through all kinds of takes and turns along the way which he did silently.

I was already in telepathic verbal connection with Babaji and some other mahasiddhas, when I finally found my heart teacher, Sivakami. She was a hardcore mystic and a yogini who had purified her mind through a series of deep samadhis. I say that she was a hardcore mystic because to her meeting yogis, teachers, lamas and gurus from all traditions both while she was awake and in sleep were like having a cup of tea is for us. She was a virtuoso in that sense. So, she helped me also in this regard and verified my experiences, as did a couple of other known yogis who had connection particularly with Babaji. This was in 2007-2009. I was her close student for about three years before she left her body 5-6 years ago.

So up until today I have had the fortune and pleasure to spend intimate time with many mahasiddhas. And by mahasiddhas I mean beings that are real masters and buddhas, not just any "spirits" or whatever non-physical beings which are many. My communication with them has gone through some development but the core of it is tantric guru yoga which means to be in vibrational unison with the master.  Essentially, anyone can do this simple form of guru yoga by calling the master to come. Nowadays I, and my wife who is also a teacher, know several masters well enough to recognise vibration typical to them to know who they are. The teachings or advices appear into my mind through effortless thought transference. For sure, all transmissions throughout the years from these masters are the core of my own understanding and the basis of what and how I teach my students.

So to me after many years of being in alive connection and communication with them, this is an ordinary thing, nothing special. When Sivakami passed aways, I wanted to find a physical lama or a guru with whom to study and I have joined many teachings of many teachers and lamas, but eventually I figured that mahasiddhas are extremely rare in the physical. And those who are here, are close to impossible to study with as intimately as I have done, for one reason or the other.

One of the things Sivakami wanted to be sure of passing to her students was that she wanted to make sure we understood that the blessings and actual spiritual help of the non-physical masters are always, at any time or place, available to anyone. One just needs to know how to do the tuning in with them. It is very simple. I have taught this, among other things for years, which is the essence of tantric guru yoga. And my students have reaped tremendous benefit from it.

Cheers,

Baba

Open Heart,
www.openheart.fi

Pawel,

Do you understand that buddhas (buddha/mahasiddha bhumis) and bodhisattvas (bodhisattva bhumis) are two very different things? There is a significant difference there in clarity and expansiveness.

I desperately cling to the feet of my lamas hoping that one day they will grant me buddhahood. tehehe.

Pawel,

I am not involved with Kagyu or any other sect of Tibetan Buddhism, so I am not talking about their bhumi model, though the model I present here (posted it just a few days in another thread) probably has similarities.

Previously posted on Question to all Arahants:

I will explain my model in short squeezing several different traditions into one model.

1. Awakening/stream entry/insight into the empty nature of me-ness, sense of subject. Bhumis 1-5.
2. Purity of mind/arhat/siddha/insight into the empty nature of the whole personal psychology. Bhumi 6.
3. Bodhisattva, 4 different stages. Bhumis 7-10.
4. Buddhahood/mahasiddha/spiritual master, 3 different stages. Bhumis 11-13.

1. Awakening. As I have written and talked about this on many occasion, I
will keep this bit short. Seen energetically awakening, or insight into
the non-solidity of me-subject, takes place at the area behind one's
eyes inside the head. When the delusion of me as an independent separate
entity drops off, this area opens up energetically and the eyes get a
natural, relaxed bright look to them, especially right after the insight
for some time. In the system I am involved with this initial attainment
open the first (1.) ground or "bhumi" which refers to the energetic
location at the level of the eyes in the spine. From awakaeing onwards
that chakra is open and will not close down except momentarily when
strong emotions that have not yet been seen through arise from the
subconscious mind. When the purification of the mind progresses in the limbs, the ground/bhumi rises inside the head until a completele purity of the bodymind is reached.

2. Purity of mind. In the model that I use and
have learned from the mahasiddhas, the next irreversible stage of
attainment, is complete purity of mind. Seen energetically this refers
to energy centers or chakras in the area of the whole physical body,
including and especially all four limbs. This means that the energy
systems, including channels and centers in the space inside the physical
body are entirely purified. Me being a tantric, this is done by
specific energy practices utilising mantras and other techniques, most
important of which are tantric guru yoga and simple deity yoga. I say
simple deity yoga because complex deity visualisation is not required
here.
When energetic purification or in other words "insight"
progresses and the limbs keep getting clearer energetically, steadily
the "ground/bhumi keeps rising inside the head. There is a pile of six
centers on top of each other between the eye level and the crown which
become clear and open, when the energetic purification in the limbs
progresses. When purity of mind is finished, the ground rests at the
crown, at the top of the head which means ground number six (6.).
Sometimes it has been said that the root chakra of a liberated saint
(jivanmukta) is at the top of the head. That's how I have experienced
it.
My observation is that very few yogis, teachers, gurus, swamis
or zen masters get here. Every once in a while somebody who has gotten
here comes across which to me is always a joyful occasion. Most teachers
out there are somewhere between the first-second-third-fourth ground
which means that they have energetic imprints in the extremities of
their limbs, translating into dualistic illusion, in their subconscious
mind. 

From here the ground keeps rising up. The area of the
body has entirely and irreversibly been purified but there is more to
go. The further progress (after the theravada Fouth Path) is possible
because there is a system of seven centers above the crown which are yet
to be tapped. And here is where the true maturation begins.

3. Bodhisattva, 4 stages. The first four centers or grounds above the crown
are not yet grounds of mahasiddhahood or buddhahood. From my own
experience I'd say, now on ground number eight (8.), that at this stage
all the personal, me-based or me-coloured content is clear. And like
Daniel Ingram has described from his own experience, it might not seem
so different when observed from the outside but it feels very different
to awakening and whatever it has felt duting the (arduous) process of
mind purification. All that is done at this point. But, there is more to
go and the first big task that has come along my way is what I call the
"interface of the energetic mind-system with the collective
subconsciousness". It seems that some Tibetans call this with the term
"kun gzhi" but all them who use this term don't mean the same thing. I
have also heard that the bodhisattvas encounter "subtle obstacles". To
me it sounds like a fitting description.

This interface to the collective subconscious mind has to me brought along some interesting
finds. It feels like the energy of the collective subconscious, which
can be felt outside of the physical body space, especially under the
feet, blows energy like a wind into my personal body space giving some
twist for the dualities/impurities/samskaras that were active in my own
mind before but are not so anymore because all that has stopped before.
Being at this stage I've also had some other interesting experiences
with beings external to my own bodymind but I won't go into those
matters here. If someone is interested, email me. That's pretty much all
I can say of the bodhisattva stages at this point of my progress. Bodhisattva bhumis cover the chakras from the first center above the crown upwards to the fourth one (10. bhumi).

4. Buddhahood. Obviously I am not yet there so I cannot say much about it,
except what has been transmitted to me by the mahasiddhas that I've had
the pleasure to work with for several years. In case there are people
here who have received introduction and initiation to tantric guru yoga
connecting them to some or few mahasiddhas like Shakyamuni,
Padmashambhava, Jesus, Machig Labdron or others, and have practiced it
skillfully and in-depth, and/or if you have practiced Sky/Space
Gazing as is done in Tibetan dzogchen, then you already know that there
are very subtle yet significant differences to the clarity that the
clear and empty mind has. A simple analogy for this is to consider a row
of clean windows next to each other. All of them are clean but the
quality of the glass is consecutively better in the next glass. That's
how I have experienced it through numerous guru yoga sessions and
special pointing out sessions with my masters.
I've also had some
pre-taste, momentary experiences of the buddha/christ-state in relation
to the energy channel system expanding beyond the personal field/aura.
In these couple of expereinces which were transmissions of specific
experience from particular mahasiddhas, I felt all the numerous numerous
channels, nadis, extend outwards and beyond my personal aura. There
these tubes actually meet all other beings. Through these experiences I
figured the importance and relevance of the bodhicitta-motivation in
many religions and practices.

What I have been told by the mahasiddhas is that one becomes a mahasiddha, a living buddha, when
one's ground/bhumi reaches the fifth center above the crown. It is at
the height of about 3 meters above the crown. When one hits and becomes
grounded in that, then one is eligible to be called a mahasiddha or a
buddha. Having (energetically) studied different teachers, gurus, lamas
and His Holinesses for years, on the basis of many many special
teachings and transmissions from real masters (mahasiddhas) I have
become disillusioned about 99% of gurus and "masters" around. I don't use this title lightly which reminded me...

Pawel wrote: "I always thought one becomes Buddha by process of..."

All right. Yeah, it might be good for you to go to Karma Kagyu. Or not. It's one of those things you have find out for yourself.

Now, actually becoming a buddha is extremely rare. And when we talk about such things we have to have a realistic and honest view about it. It is simply not realistic to say that anyone can become a buddhamahasiddha in this life. Theoretically, maybe kind of yes, but in reality it requires conditions that very few have and even those who have such conditions, might not make it. I'd say, that the company of a buddha/mahasiddha is an essential requirement for this, or at least the company of a matured bodhisattva (higher bodhisattva bhumis). I find tantric practice good because that is the most direct and easiest way to have access to such company.

Cheers,
Baba

You mentioned "ecstasy and bliss" earlier too. I am not so sure about that. Those are not well descriptive words in my exp. They sound uncooked rather than well cooked.

Thank you too.

You can make resolves Like "May i experience Nibanna in this very sitting".....I was doing that after about 8 months of intensive practice under the direction of my teacher in Burma and then one day this woman was doing very loud laundry slapping the clothes against a rock so I said to myself I will just sit until 2 as its so loud.    Well I, I suppose you could say  I went into cessation ....actually i don't really  use that language  as to  say what it is is to say what it is not....... anyway at 2pm 40 minutes later conciousness came back and i didn't know where i was or who I was for a bit and that is a whole part of the story but my point here is that I always thought that I must have made an unintentional  unconcious resolve that resulted in my being extinguished  for 40 minutes and I think if it had just been a blip it might have been easier to recover from......