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EMDR - Anyone heard of this?

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EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
1/28/16 9:51 AM
howdy -
while checking out "After Death Communication" I stumbled upon EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing).

It sounds really cool and effective especially dealing with trauma.

here is a wiki link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_desensitization_and_reprocessing

and here a video discussion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDiKP29usn0

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
1/28/16 12:30 PM as a reply to tom moylan.
It's been around for a long time and has a good track record. The skill of the therapist is important, as you need to be guided to focus on memories, feelings, etc. I went through this several years ago in weekly sessions. It seemed like nothing was happening for a few months, but I am highly resistant to intervention. Finally, I did have an extraordinary emotional release during one session, which helped me deal with my divorce. I would suggest trying this for anyone who feels "stuck" in their current therapy.

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
1/28/16 2:59 PM as a reply to tom moylan.
EMDR is the best thing ever.  I did it for 6 months and permanently got over all social anxiety.  You don't even need to have 'trauma,' persay, to do it.  Just enough stressful childhood memories logged in your brain. I would say the benefits of EMDR were at least as great as that of stream entry.

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
1/29/16 8:21 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
Yep, I know of it as a PTSD therapy, in the hands of a skilled therapist (as Wardlaw notes), it is awesome. I wish a good friend of mine could have found that treatment, he might still be around.

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
1/31/16 6:26 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
I've tried havening on some miner issues. Seems like a promesing develpment of the field of psycho-sensory protocols. I've only tried tapping emt before with anxiety it worked surprisingly well. Paul Mckennas the 3 things that will change your destiny today is probably the fastest intro to the technique. Comes with a pleasant big mind trance track too.
http://youtu.be/0C1liEFCZm4
cheers

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
2/1/16 3:05 AM as a reply to Gunnar Johansson.
howdy guys,
thanks a million for your collective input.  i also made the mental comparison of this with the 'tapping' methodology which i have heard can be very effective and fast, essentially finding a physiological shortcut to the roots of certain trauma.

a lifelong friend is trying to deal with depression and the effects of trying to put medication addictions behind him.  the medical route is handing him medical solution which unsurprisingly are..more (but different) medication.

he had previously had severe alcohol addiction and got sober for the past 15+ years.  somewhere in there he was prescribed oxycontin for pain and has been addicted to that for acouple of years.  his attempt to rid himself of that monkey resulted in his current sorry state of depression and strong anti-depressant medication.

he obviously has all of the medical care his body/mind can take but i am casting about for any supportive therapy that might be less toxic, more long lasting and more aimed at a cure than symptom supression.  of course interest in this particular therapy has roots in MY assumptoin of trauma.

any insights? thoughts?

tom

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
2/1/16 8:48 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
The havening founder's first book was apparently about addiction. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0060928999/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1454337670&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70&keywords=havening

The human givens approach to addiction seems to me very sound.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1899398465/ref=mp_s_a_1_27?qid=1454337217&sr=1-27&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70&keywords=Joe+Griffin 
 
The creator of open focus Les Fehmi has written a skilful book on pain management.

Hope everything works out for your friend.

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
2/3/16 12:44 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
tom moylan:
howdy guys,
thanks a million for your collective input.  i also made the mental comparison of this with the 'tapping' methodology which i have heard can be very effective and fast, essentially finding a physiological shortcut to the roots of certain trauma.

a lifelong friend is trying to deal with depression and the effects of trying to put medication addictions behind him.  the medical route is handing him medical solution which unsurprisingly are..more (but different) medication.

he had previously had severe alcohol addiction and got sober for the past 15+ years.  somewhere in there he was prescribed oxycontin for pain and has been addicted to that for acouple of years.  his attempt to rid himself of that monkey resulted in his current sorry state of depression and strong anti-depressant medication.

he obviously has all of the medical care his body/mind can take but i am casting about for any supportive therapy that might be less toxic, more long lasting and more aimed at a cure than symptom supression.  of course interest in this particular therapy has roots in MY assumptoin of trauma.

any insights? thoughts?

tom

Hey Tom,

Has your friend considered a 12 step program?  Six years ago when I wanted to get away from drugs (including alcohol), I went to meetings and hung out with clean and sober people and did what they suggested.  There’s a wealth of practical experience available in the fellowships, and the intimacy of the empathy from people in recovery is powerfully motivating to someone trying to get clean and sober, if that person is open to it and willing to accept it.  This empathy and wealth of experience can’t be found anywhere in the for-hire therapeutic community, but it’s found in dingy basements all over the world for free.  There’s a line in the literature of one of the fellowships that can be paraphrased as “the therapeutic value of one recovering person helping another is without parallel”.  Empathy and guidance from others won’t keep anyone clean/sober forever, but it’s a powerful balm for someone just getting off drugs.  Beyond the initial burst, the steps have some powerful spiritual tools in them to give practitioners stability.  (A note: the steps as they’re usually written can be translated into language more suitable for any particular metaphysical bent, but the root principles of surrender, faith, hope, acceptance, equanimity, compassion, and love are all there.  I’ve seen too many people get turned off by the use of theistic words, which is totally unnecessary.  I've never seen someone turned off by the suggestion of a permanent, stable self LOL.  A sponsor in the fellowship can help a newcomer unpack the steps in surprisingly meaningful ways.)  Once someone is stabilized or established in a fellowship, it’s a great resource and practice area for continued development in sila, with the added bonus that finding targets for metta or karuna bhavana practice is a breeze.   My hunch is that the recovery process will work pretty much the same wherever someone is on the path, so I don’t think your friend being well advanced will have much bearing on his recovery.  Whether addiction is treatable or curable is a whole other issue that I'd like to debate about sometime, but what I've offered here is my direct experience.

Jhana Jhunkie

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
2/3/16 3:50 AM as a reply to jhana sais quoi.
@Gunnar - thanks for the good wishes and book suggestions.

@JJ - My man was a really addicted alcholic.  He went from international high-flying business man (living all over the planet, owning posh houses from Switzerland to Singapore) to a gutter puking drunk with sixty cents in his pocket in Boston with no-one to call.

He got into a good program, did the twelve steps was really strong for almost 20 years.  He was and is my absolute hero in overcoming adversity and the comeback kid.  He could definitely write a book about the twelve steps.  I mention this because I believe he has that toolset down cold yet he still fell back to earth.

I am just looking for some other tools that might benefit him.

He knows that my particular psychological weakness is for things dharma related and so asked via SMS for some meditation instructions a couple of days ago.  It was touching and humbling and motivational.

Again thanks for the good wishes.

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
2/3/16 11:15 PM as a reply to tom moylan.
tom moylan:
@Gunnar - thanks for the good wishes and book suggestions.

@JJ - My man was a really addicted alcholic.  He went from international high-flying business man (living all over the planet, owning posh houses from Switzerland to Singapore) to a gutter puking drunk with sixty cents in his pocket in Boston with no-one to call.

He got into a good program, did the twelve steps was really strong for almost 20 years.  He was and is my absolute hero in overcoming adversity and the comeback kid.  He could definitely write a book about the twelve steps.  I mention this because I believe he has that toolset down cold yet he still fell back to earth.

I am just looking for some other tools that might benefit him.

He knows that my particular psychological weakness is for things dharma related and so asked via SMS for some meditation instructions a couple of days ago.  It was touching and humbling and motivational.

Again thanks for the good wishes.
I wonder if he was reaching out for help.  I bet that encouraging him to go back to 12 step meetings is a good approach.  If it worked for him for 20 years, it would work again, although it can be tough for people with a lot of clean/sober time to come back as newcomers.  Relapsing is proof that he didn't have the steps down cold--it might be tautological, but working the steps correctly by definition precludes using drugs.  Addiction/alcoholism touches all levels of society, so it really doesnt matter if he was at the top or bottom.

Failing this, beware of using addicts/alcoholics.  Addicts/alcoholics are some of the nicest people around, but when they're on their substance they are masters at manipulating other people, through flattery or pity or sometimes even violence, to get what they want.  As for me, as someone in recovery, I was once told "if you haven't been robbed by a newcomer, you aren't in service enough." I've never been robbed of anything beyond some tastykakes, so I guess I need to step up my game, so here's this: If he can hop a train from Boston to Philly, I'll take him to a meeting.

I hope my persistence here isn't taken with any offense--I only want to help.

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
2/4/16 6:37 AM as a reply to jhana sais quoi.
hi JJ,
no offense AT ALL. your thoughts and experiences are welcome.

i certainly don't have anything bad to say against twelve step programs and although i have not polled my pal on this yet i think he knows their value much better than i do.

i, as well as his entire family and perhaps more friends, were at one point of another manipulated and lied to by my pal.  some might have been stolen from but i don't know that.  the challenge for anyone trying to help is that they need to be ready to invest time (sometimes lots of it), energy, thoughtful engagement etc.  they need to recon with loss and must always check their own motives. 

the most important factor though is whether he is ready to do the the hard work he needs to do to get clean and sober and i am concerned that he is at a point of desperate malais which keeps him in the box of choosing to stay on meds as an easier route than freeing himself from them despite the potential long term effects.

we'll see.  thanks for the thoughts.

tom

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
2/4/16 4:48 PM as a reply to tom moylan.
Tom,

I recently listened to the the Four Hour Work Week podcast where Tim Ferriss interviews two doctors on treating addiction with psychedelics. One of the doctors runs a treatment center in Mexico where the powerful psychedelic iboga is legal for medical use. The center treats a wide range of addictions, including alcoholism. A full list of what they treat can be found here...

https://crossroadsibogaine.com/conditions-treated-with-ibogaine/

The second doctor, Dr. Dan Engle, is an American M.D. who is board-certified in both neurology and psychiatry. The focus of his clinical practice is treating patients who are good candidates for psychedelics therapies. To do this he sends them to centers around the world, like the one mentioned above and seems to basically quarterback the general arch of their recovery.

He mentions statistics on recovery rates for heroin addiction in the podcast. If I recall correctly it's something like a 65-70% cure from heroin addiction after a single iboga treatment, versus roughly a 15-20% cure-rate from a single stay in a standard rehab facility. A single iboga treatment, the way it is described in the podcast, takes about one week. This includes preparation and testing, roughly 36 hours for the trip itself, and a period for reintegration after the experience, consisting of a dose of 5-MeO-DMT.

I would certainly take these statistics with a grain of salt, as they are being provided by two doctors in the business of psychedelic treatment. On the other hand, there does seem to be some phenomenally interesting work being done in this field. In Baltimore, which is the heroin addiction capital of America, there are multiple of medical trails being conducted at Johns Hopkins on the benefits of psilocybin (magic mushrooms)

Here is an article from The Guardian on the studies.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/10/baltimore-psychologist-pioneers-team-using-psychedelics-as-sacred-medicine

As well as the Buddhist Geeks podcast where Vincent Horn interviews one of the lead researchers behind one of the studies that seeks to test the effects of psilocybin on experienced meditators.

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2016/01/bg-378-psilocybin-crash-course-mindfulness/

One of the things that I find fascinating about this sudden "bloom" of research and clinical application is that the early researchers in the 70's where clearly onto the fact that these plant-based medicines had huge potential in the area of addiction treatment. For instance, Bill Wilson, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous used LSD as part of his overall personal treatment protocol. For more on Wilson check out...

http://www.howtousepsychedelics.org/addiction/

I would highly recommend checking out the Four Hour Workweek podcast on the subject, as it is a phenomenally thought provoking and insightful overview of the field. One important point that is highlighted during the course of the discussion is that iboga is one of the most powerful psychedelics on the planet and that most doctors who work in this field recommend a long-term course of treatment that builds up to this inevitably life-altering experience.

http://fourhourworkweek.com/2015/09/14/are-psychedelic-drugs-the-next-medical-breakthrough/

Best wishes to you and your friend,

-Sam

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
2/4/16 8:30 PM as a reply to tom moylan.
I would definitely suggest him going back to alanon.  Those who fall of the wagon may be embarrassed and not want to have to be a 'beginner' again but that is exactly what mode they need to get back into, the beginner mind.  At alanon, there will be lots of people who have been through similar and will be both tough and understanding.  Alanon is about moral support and group power like a retreat can be much more intense than just meditating alone.   Anyone can memorize the 12 steps but every day is relearning them in a deeper way.  Lots of people who have been on the wagon for years still go to meetings to keep themselves on track and also help others and there are also those that relapsed and had to go back. Also those people understand addiction and addicts better than any other, that is a big power of the program.  They also do not seem super picky about which substance it is.  Basically, part of the program is you admit you are alcoholic forever, which means you can never drink alcohol because you are weak to it, so you can be on the wagon but you are always an alcoholic and always welcome to the meetings.  Lots there have gotten sucked into more than just alcohol as well and the problems, mind set, etc are similar. 

Ironically I know about this because one of my friends recently fell off the wagon after over a decade of being clean and he is at a meeting right now.  I will be meeting him for dinner right after his meeting ends.  I've been to some of the meetings with him (because at first I did not trust him to go if I was not watchin!).  He's been back on the wagon for a few  months now so I've got fingers crossed that he's got it back on track now.

Anyway, so EMDR, sounds like it won't hurt and might help.  For alanon, I'd try to get him to there too, it has a long proven track record and is the gift that keeps on giving if you are an addict.  If it's an 'open' meeting, it means nonalcoholics can go along too and sit through (around here most are open). 

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
2/5/16 10:56 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
Tom:

which keeps him in the box of choosing to stay on meds as an easier route than freeing himself from them despite the potential long term effects.


The best way to think about meds, both for your friend, and for you (through the effect it may have on him), is that they are freeing for those who need them, not that they imprison/box one in.  In other words, they unburden the mind, leaving space for healing, similar to meditation.  As his brain stops firing off the wrong chemicals, it will start to rewrite itself.  I know because it has happened to me.  

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
2/5/16 10:50 PM as a reply to Shamadhi Sam.
Addiction runs deep, and it involves much more than drug (including alchohol) use.  I'm skeptical of anything that claims to permanently arrest drug addiction.  Addiction runs deeper than conditioned patterns of behavior because it is actually a defect in the mental machinery that conditions the patterns of behavior.  It's manifested as a constellation of behaviors--only one of which is drug use--by which the addict obsessively and compulsively attempts to alter their mental state. For some reason, how addicts feel seems very, very important to them.  Anything that changes the superficial levels of the mind--minor habits, conceptual/intellectual models for apprehending reality—won’t sink in deep enough to eradicate addiction.  I would wager that  anything that does not significantly and permanently alter the personality, sense of identity, and how the person relates to feelings and emotions would not be sufficient to relieve underlying addictive tendencies.  Whether or not ibogaine does that, I'm not sure.  I've heard some hype, but I'm skeptical it really provides long lasting positive change.  I'm certain LSD and mushrooms alone don't do that--go to any hard drug market and survey the users, and almost all of them will have done LSD and mushrooms many times (at least here on the east coast of the US), yet they’re doing hard drugs.  That’s not to say that LSD or mushrooms might not be a useful adjunct to therapy in getting the addict to change his or her habits and thought patterns, which can in time lead to deeper change.  In the case here, if getting third path didn't erase addictive obsession & compulsion, I really doubt that any single experience would. 

Maybe ibogaine or other psychedelics work to some degree.  Addiction is probably on a spectrum, and maybe some people just need a little push to get started and then they can go a long way on will power, but I think a lot of people in the deeper end need a comprehensive, long term approach with a strongly supportive community.  I'm all for an array of treatment modalities—especially ones that have a less strenuous requirement for adherence to treatment—but I really think the 12-step model of addiction as a chronic condition requiring persistent treatment points to something true.

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
2/8/16 6:41 AM as a reply to Noah.
howdy noah,
i'm genuinely happy that you had success with using some pharma.

you wrote - As his brain stops firing off the wrong chemicals, it will start to rewrite itself.

i think that a more accurate description of the process is:  after the natural brain chemicals are supressed or replaced by the artificial ones the body stops producing them.  they can only begin to rebuild after the artificial chemicals are withheld.

lots of people can funtion better on some of these drugs.  lots of these drugs cause addiction after only a short time and the withdrawal can be catastrophic..i've sawed on about that before here though. and so will shut up about it.

i really do appreciate all of the suggestions in the thread.  i don't think that the exotic hallucinogen based therapies would be his thing knowing him as I do but some of the 12 step methods have worked for him before and i find that encouraging as well as the cognitive and motoric methods.

we'll see what he's open to.

mille grazie

RE: EMDR - Anyone heard of this?
Answer
1/26/17 9:07 PM as a reply to Ward Law.
Hi All. I randomly stumbled upon this forum and decided to post a link to an online, at-home EMDR website that shows people how to do EMDR on themselves.

I hope this isnt a violation of the terms here.

www.virtualemdr.com 

There are a ton of articles about what EMDR does to you on the blog at that website. 

Again, hope this isnt considered spam. Just being helpful. Thanks