I went to a Vipassana retreat recently. (At least in my perception) I completed a new path, which (again in my perception) may have been 3rd. In any case, what has happened seems to be very significant to me; basically it really doesn´t matter how to number it and in which system it fits. I have been so caught by surprise by the resulting changes that I wanted to share some of my impressions.

When I left the meditation hall, I felt like I had just woken up from a dream. Like weight had been taken off me. I simply perceived ordinary life in its clear beauty. After a few hours my mind became very restless. Only when that faded, more consequences of what had happened seemed to become clear. I spent another few days literally just floating through life. Watching life unfold, hardly any emotions other than a simple joy of being and occasionally some bouts of fear. When there was something urgent that needed to be addressed, I noticed it and took action in a focused but non-hurried and non-stressed manner.

It took me a while to notice that something very obvious seemed to have changed in my brain this time. Basically there is certain thoughts, which before were common, which my brain now just refuses to think. It´s like hitting inner walls. These are thoughts like judging myself, telling myself I should be different or creating my life-story in the sense of defining my personal identity. For now, these thoughts are impossible. Even now that I write about it, resistance appears in my brain. That was kind of disconcerting at first, as I wondered if I had also lost some mental functionality. However, so far it seems like simply a lot of suffering has been erased. At the same time, much of the concept of who “I” am seems to have disappeared. It´s very difficult to put in words.

From another point of view, I am still the same. Patterns of behavior still exist. My mind still gets lost in mental chatter, mostly on practical issues. During working days some hours may pass, where I just function in the sense that I analyze, think, plan, write and talk without much mindfulness. At some point, I remember and come back to my body, my senses and to simply being present. Returning to a feeling that all is ok the way it is; that everything simply is. There is even less emotional reactivity, which had already reduced significantly in the course of the last year. When emotions arise, especially negative emotions, I notice them and just watch without perpetuating them through thoughts. Sometimes, they last for a while, but they don’t “hurt” much.

Funnily, as there is much less of an “I” to analyze what has happened, mostly I just take everything as it is. At the same time I am still amazed and I feel like the full realization and consequences haven´t really settled in, yet. The whole thing has only happened less than 3 weeks ago. At times, a “why” question comes up: why am I doing this job? Why am I living my life the way I do? Much of my former motivations have disappeared, but it still seems a bit unclear what will motivate me in the future. That process also started before, but it feels like another big step has been taken. At the retreat, I again saw clearly how everything happens as a dance of causes and conditions and that once that is clear, deep compassion arises naturally. However, that was probably an A&P type of insight; it hasn´t been stable, only some memory remains. Somehow, it feels like although my perception has changed drastically, I still don´t see completely clearly. Like having left behind the old reality but having not quite arrived in the new reality, yet.

I would be very interested to hear how others have dealt with such changes? Has your life changed? Have you changed your life in the sense of making practical changes to it?

Hi Krishna,
many thanks for your reply. I realized now, that what I wrote is probably very easily misunderstood, if you haven´t followed my occassional posts here - any maybe even if you don´t know me personally. (At least in my perception ;-) ) I had completed two full cycles of insight previously and then many leading up to this event. I have read a lot, including a lot by Mahasi Sayadaw and know the stages, so while all was unfolding at the retreat I could also watch myself in it. A few things were special this time, e.g. the very gently quality with which the fruition "descended" on awareness. (Again, at least in my perception), the review phase lasted for a bit less than a week. I do agree with you that only after a much longer time, though, will I be able to tell which changes are really permanent. I´ve indeed done mostly concentration and metta meditation since then. The ability to enter into formless realms and do all kind of funny things with my mind has further increased. However, I really didn´t want to enter into this type of conversation, as I am interested in how people deal with such sudden and drastic inner changes and what it meant for their practical life.
I I may just take the liberty to delete most of the first paragraph in the hope that it gets clearer then.
Still, thanks again for the reply.
---

Hey Caro,

Firstly, congrats, and please feel empowered to ignore any type of bs-challenging type of commentary from people here regarding whether or not your attainment meets 3rd path criteria.  It sounds legit as far as pragmatic dharma goes, and thats what matters here.   There is only so much verification that can occur via text on a public, discussion forum.
 
A couple more thoughts.  The rapid cycling you began to experience immediately after is 'Review A.'  You will be able to complete multiple cycles of insight in a given sit.  It will last for about two weeks.  How long ago was this event?  After this period, 'Review B' will begin, which will be marked by the previously rapid cycling gradually slowing down to an absolute halt.  You won't even be able to get past the first nana in a given sit.  This is the sign that a new path is beginning.  The longest Review phase I have had is 6 weeks.  I am sure there can be even more variance than that.  4 weeks is the average.

I have also experienced what you are describing as big reductions in patterns of mind that lead to suffering.  Certain symptoms of bipolar disorder have completely disappeared for me after completed insight cycles.  These changes have remained constant for over a year, so I trust that they are permanent.  The major point is to appreciate the benefits you do get, but to also realize that you have no control over specifically what gets better and what does not.  

This does sound like 'technical 3rd path', based on the fact that you completed two cycles of insight, then did many more cycles, and then had this first major opening which permanently effected walking-around perception.  There will be one more obvious one like this, which could be called 'technical 4th path.'  For me it has been helpful to think of the real 'third path' and 'fourth path' as somewhat of a myth.  Meaning, I suspect that people who engage in transformation-oriented, insight practice continue to have major, permanent shifts in perception for the rest of their lives.  There are many doors in the mind that can be opened, many sensory categories and ways those categories interact.  It might be helpful for you to think of it in this way, or it might not.  

There appear to be two categories of people for whom the pragmatic-hardcore dharma approach works.  Both groups consist of people who get two major openings after 2nd path, with the last one granting a certain intuitive sense of completion, and a diamond-like understanding of the utter relativity of all perception.  Some of these people do not pursue further permanent shifts after this opening.  They consider 'technical 4th path' the end of their insight journey.  They have been given enough suffering reduction.  For the second group, 'technical 4th path' is simply not enough reduction of suffering.  They will continue to explore insight training and the possibilities of further transformation for a long time.  

These are things that have taken me awhile to piece together that I think might be useful in terms of outlook.

Noah, it is with great care and respect i approach to say....you write cogently and gently on a topic i am still in the throes of experiencing at this very moment.  Please accept the apology of a silly cantankerous old (baby boomer, bugger it)  that has failed to see your experience.
Which i share on all levels but mostly when it comes to the "scary one" Mental illness.  These are issuses i am yet to post on my pratice log but will be doing after the weekend up grade.

  please forgive my butting in but on reading Noah's advice i had to make ammends for being a pain in the arse to him.  He knows of which he speaks says Stuie rather sheepishly.

Sorry Sir.

Hi Caro

I can definitely relate to perception having changed drastically. A couple of things that may or may not be useful from my experiences (18+ months now and still going)

It can be amazingly wonderful, dreamlike. It can be just ordinary. It can also be very odd. And that can be very frightening at times.

Much was not what I expected at all.

The portion of the “I” that is left can become both frightened and obsessed with figuring out what happened, explanations helped that part of me relax. (For me, some of the most helpful material was Adyashanti’s discussions of no-self)

There seems to be a process of really learning how to function in this new mode of being. It is taking time. And for me it took finding someone I could talk to regularly about how that was going - to be more of an occupational therapist than a teacher. I need someone that can just be there with me as I muddle my way through. More patience, compassion and insight, less a drive for further progress.

Much of what is most noticeable, most describable about it seem to be ‘experiences’ that come and go. There is also something else, less conceptual, less describable but nonetheless there.

I have worked to keep my outer life going pretty much as it was. I am reluctant to make large changes when I am still so much in the midst of this process.

@ Elizabeth P

Thanks for your reply! I can relate very well to what you describe. I am just reading Adyashanti´s "The End of Your World" and find it extremely valuable. Although my experience has less of a non-duality touch to it, a lot of what he talks about is very helpful. E.g. in my original post, I wrote about the loss of motivation and how I find that difficult. He talks about that in the book as well, that there just won´t be any more meaning and purpose in the traditional sense of the word. When reading that yesterday, my mind almost freaked out, as the idea of no-purpose is so alien to "me". Have you met Adyashanti in person?

I am also very grateful for the teacher / coach that I am working with and for having one good friend with whom I can share my experiences. Talking about it helps me to make sense of it all and – as you say – helps my mind, which loves to control life, to be a bit more relaxed.

@ Krishna

Thanks for sharing the links! I read through them carefully again (I had looked at some of these posts previously). I think I now understand better how to continue to practice. I like the parts where Daniel and others recommend to look very precisely at every instance where identification still occurs. Intuitively that makes a lot of sense to me. Funnily, it´s similar to what Adyashanti recommends in the book I am currently reading.
The agent-less perception is really interesting. Before experiencing it regularly, I always thought it must be something mystical and the idea scared me a bit. But somehow it´s very different than what I had imagined.

Thanks, Noah!
I haven´t heard of Review A and B before. The event was about three weeks ago. In the days afterwards, I strongly felt like not wanting to do any more insight meditation for a while as the past months had been quite intense and I really just wanted some peace. I still did a bit of low-key practice so I did notice the rapid cycling, the ability to jump to different insight stages at will etc. However, that lasted only about 6 days this time. Then I had 2 sits which didn´t start at A&P and where soon intense unrest and physical pain appeared. At that point, I really wanted to avoid a new path to start, as I didn´t know what lay ahead; thus I switched completely to doing only metta for a while as that seemed the safest way to avoid anything insight related. By now, I don´t mind so much anymore. What is supposed to happen will happen anyway. I am still sticking to concentration on the cushion, but if I don´t focus hard enough to stabilize the experience, an insight cycle may just happen. At times, also some weird formless realms appear without intention.



That´s an interesting perspective on the process. I guess I will find out when I get there. I find the huge potential for transformation available through meditation so fascinating that it´s difficult to imagine that my interest in it will simply stop. On the other hand, the idea of being really done with looking for something is tempting. I am working with Ron (as I think you did in the past), and I guess that there must be more potential for change beyond that version of 4th path and beyond what Daniel describes. (I think Ron is really great, so it´s not at all the point to doubt what he does in any way). Otherwise it wouldn´t make sense for e.g. the Tibetan hermits to spend decades in mountain caves

Hey Caro,

Good to hear your working with Ron.

Btw, I don't want to project, or be in anyone's business, but I'm not so convinced that what Daniel describes is the same as what everyone else is describing.  Just further thoughts.

Best of luck.

Now I am obviously curious. Why do you think what Daniel describes is different from everybody else´s experience?

Caro, sent you a pm.

Hi Caro,

Changes in motivation, agency-less-ness, reduction and changes in the content of discursive thought, and more. There seem to be lots of differences. Some things that seem most striking to me are not as prominent for others I’ve talked with or whose descriptions I’ve read. Some of their experience is there when I look but is not as noticeable for me. The prominence of each also varies time to time. One day the lack of motivation may be what I notice. The next might be dream like with hardly a thought in my head. Then it will change again.

Yet somewhat surprisingly life does continue and stuff gets done. The part that plans is still there – it just doesn’t nag like it used to. So taking time to sit ‘with it’ and figure out what needs to be done today - and then checking in from time to time (and sometimes written lists and notes) helps me get enough done.

For motivation, when I can find a connection to metta / caring / love it is easier. Duty / obligation / should don’t work very well these days. The caring related things get done – the others sometimes don’t. So I try to get out of my head and down to my heart - taking it deeper, gut, root or beyond to a place I've been calling 'bedrock' works as well.

I’ve gone to two in person events with Adya. I did an evening and one day Intensive soon after I found him – at least partly out of - I have to see how much to lean on this. That event was when I started to figure out why I was so drawn to his teaching – that it provided an explanation that would let my mind relax. I went on a retreat with him in the fall and fell even deeper into ‘something’. That ended the urgency to figure it out and any sense that ‘this’ way of being was problematic. I will be doing an event with Mukti then a retreat with Adya this spring. I am curious about just how deep the thing can go.

Noah, 

Can you say more about Review A and Review B?  Is that based on your own mapping of the thing or some other source? 

I also relatively recently (within the past month) completed a major cycle followed by a clear review phase and then a not so clear review phase, so I'm curious to hear more about this particular model.  Specifically, can you say more about how Review B presented for you?

Also, I'd be curious to know whether you experienced any "mini"-Review phases along the way, at any point.  I've often found myself in very strange and difficult to map territory, but before this latest cycle, which had some major perceptual changes associated with it, I occasionally had mini-major cycle completions that seemed to have short review phases associated with them.  That part of the process definitely had a very fractal feel to it, where it often seemed like I was cycling through mini- and meta- stages of insight all at once -- super confusing.  

After this "major" cycle, I had the nice experience of seemingly gaining access to some new toys (jhanas), which persisted throughout the initial review phase and then became much more difficult to access as time progressed.  I've never had much facility with clearly accessing jhanas, calling up fruitions, or anything else, but suddenly could, for a little while.  Then, as the reivew completed, it felt like I couldn't do much of anything.  Everything back to normal, solid, and so on.  (That's where my interest in this Review B concept comes in.)

On the one hand, I'm not seeing things nearly as cleanly as Daniel suggests in one thread discussing the differences between his Third Path criteria and that of other teachers.  On the other hand, there has been a very clear shift from focusing on further cycle completions toward developing on-the-mat techniques to see the thing more cleanly and clearly as it is right now.  That's been interesting and has eliminated an enormous amount of stress associated with the practice.  Finally, I could just sit and meditate, rather than worrying about cycles.  During what you might call Review A, it felt like my mind was picking and applying the technique, while I just sat there -- very effortless and nice.  

As what you might call Review B started, I wasn't so concerned with cycles, but I felt stuck, with a major sense of "what to do next?" creeping in and all of the stress associated with that feeling of being lost coming along with it.  Obviously, I investigated that, but it still felt like I was up against a new, much more solid wall.  I hadn't thought of it as being part of another Review phase.  Rather, I assumed that I was just facing whatever had to be investigated next.  

As far as my meditation is concerned, I've gone back to the basics, the breath.  I often used the breath as a launching point for concentration before beginning open, all-inclusive noting to power the cycles, but that's felt less useful to me lately than just really getting to know the breath.  That's how I felt last night at least.  Tonight I could find myself practicing some light self-enquiry while standing on my head and singing kumbaya.  It's been hard for me to stick to a single technique lately.  Still, I feel like working with the breath very closely holds the latest clues to figuring the thing out.  We shall see. 

Thanks, amigo!

Hey Chad,

This is all basically my opinion, but some of it might be helpful.

I got Review a & b from Kenneth Folk.  Heard it on the old KFD archives, some of which can be accessed here and here .  I got further details from a teacher who was a student of his.  Try searching for some of it, I am not sure exactly where I heard it first.  

My experience of the paths and reviews was fairly clean/neat because I was meeting with, and noting for, a teacher, every two weeks.  So there was some degree of structure/conceptual framework to my practice.  I actually consider this to not be a placebo or some watering-down, but rather a necessary part of the full Buddhist training that includes things like Right View and Right Resolve.  However, I would guess that I would have noticed more variance from the neat formula of 'full path->full review->new path' etc., if I had not structured my practice so.  In other words, things like mini-reviews, especially past 2nd, probably do exist.  I think of the maps as more of a statistical average with standard deviations, rather than the territory that includes the messiness of all the outliers.

In terms of the idea of 'major' cycles and 'minor' ones:  I think people tend to get confused about the nature of cycling, which occurs on and off cushion, all day long, rather than across a period of days or weeks.  Meaning, one is usually only in a given nana for a short period of time, but the afterglow of that nana may cause one to feel as if they are still in it.  This can create the impression that one is continually floating in a given nana for days at a time, when really they are cycling between mind & body and their cutting edge.  So really there are only minor cycles.  

My experience of fractals is that each nana basically has different levels of maturity of the insight it has to offer, and one must pass through each of these sub-levels in order to progress to the next nana.  One way to model these levels of maturity is to call them 'sub-jhanas', with immaturity corresponding to .1, early maturity corresponding to .2, middle maturity corresponding to .3, and late maturity corresponding to .4.  I found this to be helpful, although the details I wrote above are my own interpretation.

In terms of the relevance of cycles vs practice being independent of cycles, I would say that there is basically a divergence after 2nd path.  There is definitely a divergence after 'technical 4th path.'  I like the idea from awareness based practices (i.e. mahamudra, shikantaza), rather than investigative ones (i.e. vipassana), that things are being revealed when certain hindrances/filters are subtracted, rather than things being added on.  I guess the concept of numbered paths has that connotation, for me, that one is adding on a new aspect of mind, which is discovered by digging through the nanas to the center of the earth (lol).  I don't necessarily think that there is a center of the earth, and it seems like more and more things could be revealed, after the breakdown of linear progress (either post 2nd or post 'technical 4th'), that would be further reductions in suffering.  I would imagine that after each new 'revelation,' there would be some sort of Review-like symptom occuring, whether or not one was focused on the cycling.  This is a total guess, however.

Thanks for the detailed response, Noah.  I love the chart.  I think I'm conceptualizing cycles somewhat differently, but may well simply be butchering commonly used terminology and/or not really seeing these things clearly.  I always appreciate your perspective on these things.  I'll keep investigating and report back if I have anything useful to add.  

Hi Elizabeth
I haven´t been at the forum a lot recently but still wanted to thank you for your reply. I find it very helpful to hear other people´s experiences and comforting that life can indeed continue well even if it´s very different.
I am still trying to figure out how to deal with my job which is stressful and requires a lot of analytical thinking. At the same time, the whole process of change just seems to continue by itself. At times, the struggles and dark night phenomena are back (and then it also gets very difficult to connect with feelings of caring or love). At times, a deep stillness comes over my mind and the resulting space can either be empty or filled with relaxation and with an appreciation and quiet happiness which is beautiful...

Hi Caro,

I’m glad my post was helpful. I’m just back from satsang and a silent retreat day with Mukti. (wonderful!) What seems to be emerging from that is a closer look at the ways my mind tries to frighten me.

There have been specific moments where my mind noticed how different things were now and got scared and then ran with it.  e.g. waiting at the gate to board a plane and so immersed in the sensations of the moment that I watched the boarding process for a while before connecting that this was my plane and I needed to move. But I did realize it, move and get on the plane. It was ok.

All the other times were like that. It was fine in the moment, It turned out ok and but some part of me got scared and used it as part of its ongoing argument that something wasn’t ok and that disaster was looming. Just seeing that has let everything settle into a deeper level of peace.