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Demand quality from your Guru

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Demand quality from your Guru
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1/29/16 3:26 PM
Demand quality from your Guru

Muzika wrote:

>Like Krishnamurti he blames his students for not getting what he offers. It just takes a long time, perseverance, and earnestness on a path of self-exploration...He needed to emphasize that there is no truth in words, including his, because words cannot convey his state. All words cause problems until and even after one has entered emptiness... The exact same criticism can be leveled at Ramana. He had a simple and clean awakening to the nature of his existence, but because he did not see through words and concepts...

Baba wrote:

- The criticism of teachers or gurus not being able to "deliver" is a universal problem. The factors of this are quite simple:

1. Teacher does not understand what awakening is or how it happens, even if he (or her) himself is awakened. Therefore,
2. He has no clarity and enough skillfulness in his ways to convey it through exact verbal descriptions and
3. The particular techniques aimed to generate awakening might be altogether irrelevant or only vaguely relevant.

- So if the problem is in the teacher and his methods... and he blames the students for not getting awakened... What does it tell about the teacher? This is professional imcompetence. In every other profession, they'd be kicked out for not being able to do their job. Right?

- Imagine a school teacher shouting at the kids that, "I have been talking about learning to read for you for so long but you idiots are not learning any! What kind of idiot basterds are ya!?" That doesn't happen because the teachers know the basic methods of pedagogy and the ways how reading is taught to kids. It would be considered completely amateuristic on behalf of the teacher not being able to get the kids reading, writing or whatever. This happens all the time in the spiritual scene because of the incompetence of the teachers. Incompetence of the teachers is caused by there being no valid training system to produce teachers. It is not OK for spiritual teachers not being able to get their students awaken because that's the most basic thing! It's the teachers job! And responsibility.

- This problem, which crosses right through the whole spiritual/nondual/mind training scene, covering thousands and thousands of people all over the world. There is lack of clarity in thinking and analysis here (2.). Because the teacher don't understand his or her own awakening, he cannot pass it to others. This happens in all traditions. I am not blaming any of them, as I have also done training under several teachers of various traditions. I am just saying that hello, we ought to do better. Much better!

- It is a pity that there is no culture of rationality within spirituality. I mean, when we go to school we already know the syllabus. We know what we are going to get. If the syllabus said, "We're just going to wing it and teach the kids something vague with a vague outcome", people would tell us to take a hike. In spirituality we are told, "Oh yes, of course, you will get awakened and enlightened. Of course!" but we aren't explained what it means and how it happens. We might be laughed at for asking such questions and the guru might say, "Don't be such a naive child asking that question because you cannot understand awakening". And then the crowd laughs together at such silly question. Wrong! It is the teacher that does not understand awakening if he can't explain it. All things can be verbally explained, in detail. The words, concepts and terms are not the thing itself, of course, but an indispensable and skillful (or skill-less) way to convey the teaching. Verbal means are as important as non-verbal ones. This should be understood. And this all makes sense.

- Be cautious about a nondual/spiritual teachers who don't clearly explain you things. Many people have ended up going to meetings and teachings, year after year, dollar after dollar, not getting anything right, just learning distorted concepts that they then carry around with them, still being miserable and confused about their true nature. I've seen this happen over and over. Enough of that. Demand some craftmanship from the teacher as you do from the guy who fixes your car. You'd never accept a car that is still broken after a while at the carage while still having to pay!

Cheers,
Baba Kim Katami

Open Heart,
www.openheart.fi

RE: Demand quality from your Guru
Answer
1/30/16 3:17 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I agree with all of the above. 

Of particular importance, I think, is a teacher's ability to guide students past 2nd path.  A surface-level survey of traditions has suggested to me that awareness practices such as Mahamudra and Dzogchen may be best for this.  In terms of the pragmatic dharma scene, a teacher who can distinguish between 'technical 3rd/4th path', and the openings that do occur for people after these shifts, is also very valuable.  Cool stuff.

RE: Demand quality from your Guru
Answer
1/30/16 3:45 AM as a reply to Noah.
Noah:
I agree with all of the above. 

Of particular importance, I think, is a teacher's ability to guide students past 2nd path.  A surface-level survey of traditions has suggested to me that awareness practices such as Mahamudra and Dzogchen may be best for this.  In terms of the pragmatic dharma scene, a teacher who can distinguish between 'technical 3rd/4th path', and the openings that do occur for people after these shifts, is also very valuable.  Cool stuff.

I have to check what all you guys here mean with these terms 2. Path or technical 3./4 path. I never practiced the way most here so I am not familiar with what you mean with these.

Still cool anyway, ha.