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dharma marketplace : ladyfrog : 1/29/16 7:26 PM
RE: dharma marketplace CJMacie 1/29/16 8:48 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Stuie Law 1/30/16 5:08 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Darrell 2/8/16 10:53 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Vince 2/9/16 11:33 AM
RE: dharma marketplace CJMacie 2/24/16 5:15 AM
RE: dharma marketplace CJMacie 2/22/16 2:01 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Shamadhi Sam 2/9/16 11:12 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Kim Katami 1/30/16 8:25 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Eva Nie 2/23/16 11:43 PM
RE: dharma marketplace CJMacie 2/24/16 5:13 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Eva Nie 2/24/16 10:04 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Kim Katami 2/25/16 3:10 AM
RE: dharma marketplace neko 2/25/16 4:03 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Kim Katami 2/25/16 5:55 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Chris Marti 2/25/16 7:10 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Kim Katami 2/25/16 8:20 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Chris Marti 2/25/16 8:54 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Kim Katami 2/25/16 9:46 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Chris Marti 2/25/16 11:35 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Darrell 2/25/16 1:22 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Darrell 2/25/16 1:30 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Kim Katami 2/25/16 2:16 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Eva Nie 2/25/16 4:38 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Chris Marti 2/25/16 5:18 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Darrell 3/1/16 3:29 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Psi 3/1/16 5:42 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Darrell 3/1/16 9:27 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Eva Nie 3/1/16 9:23 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Chris Marti 2/25/16 5:19 PM
RE: dharma marketplace neko 2/25/16 2:03 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Kim Katami 2/25/16 2:12 PM
RE: dharma marketplace neko 2/25/16 5:41 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Pablo CEG 2/25/16 11:59 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Eva Nie 2/25/16 2:19 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Kim Katami 2/26/16 1:41 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Chris Marti 2/26/16 6:48 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Eva Nie 2/26/16 10:39 AM
RE: dharma marketplace C P M 2/26/16 12:09 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Kim Katami 2/26/16 1:31 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Chris Marti 2/26/16 2:29 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Kim Katami 2/26/16 3:19 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Chris Marti 2/26/16 5:12 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Eva Nie 2/26/16 10:30 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Chris Marti 2/27/16 10:58 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Eva Nie 2/27/16 10:49 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Derek 3/1/16 4:58 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Eva Nie 3/1/16 10:01 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Derek 3/2/16 5:57 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Eva Nie 3/2/16 10:31 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Derek 3/3/16 10:33 AM
RE: dharma marketplace Eva Nie 3/3/16 7:54 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Chris M 3/8/16 5:23 PM
RE: dharma marketplace Kim Katami 2/27/16 12:02 PM
dharma marketplace
Answer
1/29/16 7:26 PM
how about a separate section for people who want to advertise spiritual services?  could be a paid  directory for people wanting to distribute links to their own websites.  any funds raised could go to the burmese monastery of choice?  ads would be conveniently located in one place, and for clarity could be kept separate from those appearing in the “recent discussions” tab...

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
1/29/16 8:48 PM as a reply to : ladyfrog :.
What? Cast the money-changers out of the temple? That tactic doesn't have a very good track-record.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
1/30/16 5:08 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Shit i wish there was a like button here....cheers

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
1/30/16 8:25 AM as a reply to : ladyfrog :.
Hello,

I realise I do marketing of midn training services when among my messages there are always links.  I always attach website adress so that those who seek help and assistance and want to check it out don't have to search for it. If this is not allowed, the moderator may let me know.

Baba

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/8/16 10:53 PM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris,

Would you mind clarifying what you meant by that? It seems like your statement could mean a couple of things, and I'm not sure which. Not that it's a big deal, I'm simply curious.

Thanks

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/9/16 11:12 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
They can't all be gems, but that one was! emoticon

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/9/16 11:33 AM as a reply to Darrell.
Darrell:
Chris,

Would you mind clarifying what you meant by that? It seems like your statement could mean a couple of things, and I'm not sure which. Not that it's a big deal, I'm simply curious.

Thanks

He probably meant "money-chargers."

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/24/16 5:15 AM as a reply to Vince.
Vince
DarrellChris,

Would you mind clarifying what you meant by that? It seems like your statement could mean a couple of things, and I'm not sure which. Not that it's a big deal, I'm simply curious.

Thanks


He probably meant "money-chargers."

Same difference. I was using the familiar Biblical phrase, but this pertains as well.

Curious dichotomy between factions of the "children of Abraham": Hebrew finance involves interest (charging for changing), but Islam forbides charging interest, as I understand it.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/22/16 2:01 AM as a reply to Darrell.
re: Darrell (2/8/16 10:53 PM as a reply to Chris J Macie)

Chris J Macie:
"What? Cast the money-changers out of the temple? That tactic doesn't have a very good track-record."


Darrell:

"Would you mind clarifying what you meant by that? It seems like your statement could mean a couple of things, and I'm not sure which. Not that it's a big deal, I'm simply curious."


An attempt at humor – referring to Christian lore and the issue of religion and money.

Jesus Christ is said to have, shortly after his triumphant entry into Jerusalem on "Palm Sunday", and being heralded as "King of the Jews", gone into the main temple and s/w violently disrupted the people who were doing financial transations there, apparently regularly. That tactic didn't go over that well with the powers that be. By the following Friday, they had him nailed to a cross.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/23/16 11:43 PM as a reply to : ladyfrog :.
: ladyfrog ::
how about a separate section for people who want to advertise spiritual services?  could be a paid  directory for people wanting to distribute links to their own websites.  any funds raised could go to the burmese monastery of choice?  ads would be conveniently located in one place, and for clarity could be kept separate from those appearing in the “recent discussions” tab...

Yeah, gets kinda old when there are lots of posts by someone rather blatantly attempting to advertise their own money collecting website and services.   Yet not so easy to clarify just exactly when someone crosses that line.  Still would rather this place is more of an idea place than a money changer type place.  ;-P
-Eva

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/24/16 5:13 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
re: Eva Nie (2/23/16 11:43 PM as a reply to : ladyfrog :  )

"Yeah, gets kinda old when there are lots of posts by someone rather blatantly attempting to advertise…"

Not sure who might be meant by someone here, but I, for one, find it wearying that one Kim Katami, despite some participation in general discussion, and appearing to have substantial experience under his belt, persists in using DhO overtly as a marketing platform.

It began with tauting "success" ratios ("Statistics of sudden awakenings"); continued with instances of criticising other respected teachers on a couple points, and then introducing what look like staged testimonials to his teaching – most recently "Loss of Sense of Self".

Now it's the newly introduced "Bhumi Study Series", where he promotes his variation of what looks like an aura-reading system. The idea of such a technique is worthwhile, as is his apparent willingness to outline using it, bare-bones as it is. But then refusing to offer a demonstration in answer to Derek's request in lieu of a teacher-client relationship is, despite his rationalization, suspect as not in the spirit of the general nature of open investigation and sharing in this forum. Particularly when this Bhumi system is, on the website, advertised as conducted "on the basis of photographs". (Maintaining strict personal control over experimental situations works well to guarantee favorable statistics.)

The "Series" itself has the same text in each part despite different titles -- essentially picture galleries of famous personages, culminating in pictures of Kim and his teaching staff, claiming attainments on a par with the best. It's a bit much.

Kim Katami
(1/30/16 8:25 AM as a reply to : ladyfrog :.)

"I realise I do marketing of midn training services when among my messages there are always links.  I always attach website adress so that those who seek help and assistance and want to check it out don't have to search for it. If this is not allowed, the moderator may let me know."

One of the virtues of DhO is that, at best, it's largely self-moderating. Along those lines, it's been clearly suggested, multiple times, by several individuals, that your overt marketing efforts should go elsewhere. That's not to say some of your posts aren't worthwhile contributions to discussion. It's just when they, as most often, veer-off into bald-faced self-promotion…

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/24/16 10:04 PM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:
re: Eva Nie (2/23/16 11:43 PM as a reply to : ladyfrog :  )

"Yeah, gets kinda old when there are lots of posts by someone rather blatantly attempting to advertise…"

Not sure who might be meant by someone here, but I, for one, find it wearying that one Kim Katami, despite some participation in general discussion, and appearing to have substantial experience under his belt, persists in using DhO overtly as a marketing platform.



Yes I admit that person is the one I was thinking of.  I feel bad saying bad things but also found the level of advertising to be considerably more than average.  I wonder if part of the problem is lack of guidelines and also lack of designated locations available for such issues?  As a business person myself, I do understand the desire and general need to advertise and everyone has to eat and pay the rent somehow.  And some readers here may be interested in what various teachers have to offer.  On the flip side, I would not want to see a lot of teachers coming here and all advertising to that extent on lots of various threads.  Plus the assertions of superiority over other teachers can easily lead to increased bad feelings and arguing.  I know on one board I was on, the prob was solved by making a subsection of the board for specific commercial teachings and theories.  Readers could then if they wanted go to that section to the board and read about the various available teachings and those who were not interested in advertising materials could just avoid that area.    

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 3:10 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva Nie
Yeah, gets kinda old when there are lots of posts by someone rather blatantly attempting to advertise their own money collecting website and services.   Yet not so easy to clarify just exactly when someone crosses that line.  Still would rather this place is more of an idea place than a money changer type place.  ;-P
-Eva
Eva Nie
...As a business person myself, I do
understand the desire and general need to advertise and everyone has to
eat and pay the rent somehow.  And some readers here may be interested
in what various teachers have to offer.  On the flip side, I would not
want to see a lot of teachers coming here and all advertising to that
extent on lots of various threads.  Plus the assertions of superiority
over other teachers can easily lead to increased bad feelings and
arguing.   
Chris J Maciere: Eva Nie (2/23/16 11:43 PM as a reply to : ladyfrog :  )

"Yeah, gets kinda old when there are lots of posts by someone rather blatantly attempting to advertise…"

Not sure who might be meant by someone here, but I, for one, find it wearying that one Kim Katami,
despite some participation in general discussion, and appearing to have
substantial experience under his belt, persists in using DhO overtly as
a marketing platform.

It began with tauting "success" ratios ("Statistics of sudden awakenings");
continued with instances of criticising other respected teachers on a
couple points, and then introducing what look like staged testimonials
to his teaching – most recently "Loss of Sense of Self".

Now it's the newly introduced "Bhumi Study Series",
where he promotes his variation of what looks like an aura-reading
system. The idea of such a technique is worthwhile, as is his apparent
willingness to outline using it, bare-bones as it is. But then refusing
to offer a demonstration in answer to Derek's
request in lieu of a teacher-client relationship is, despite his
rationalization, suspect as not in the spirit of the general nature of
open investigation and sharing in this forum. Particularly when this
Bhumi system is, on the website, advertised as conducted "on the basis of photographs". (Maintaining strict personal control over experimental situations works well to guarantee favorable statistics.)

The "Series"
itself has the same text in each part despite different titles --
essentially picture galleries of famous personages, culminating in
pictures of Kim and his teaching staff, claiming attainments on a par
with the best. It's a bit much.

Kim Katami
(1/30/16 8:25 AM as a reply to : ladyfrog :.)

"I
realise I do marketing of midn training services when among my messages
there are always links.  I always attach website adress so that those
who seek help and assistance and want to check it out don't have to
search for it. If this is not allowed, the moderator may let me know."

One
of the virtues of DhO is that, at best, it's largely self-moderating.
Along those lines, it's been clearly suggested, multiple times, by
several individuals, that your overt marketing efforts should go
elsewhere. That's not to say some of your posts aren't worthwhile
contributions to discussion. It's just when they, as most often,
veer-off into bald-faced self-promotion…


Eva and Chris, and those few other people,

So is money the issue here? Is that the problem? If money was never mentioned, would that solve the problem?

Several readers of this forum have contacted me and couple of them have received various instructions from me.

I hope people would see and consider what I'm saying, that's all. If it  is of use to you, great. If not, forget it. I have proved what I say,
especially regards to awakening/stream entry. And also suggested how things in general could be much improved (Bhumi Study) for us all. If someone sees this as mere blatant self-promotion, I can only assume that they haven't looked into what I am saying.

I would neither want many teachers come here to beat their drums and blowing their trumpets, without any evidence how they are actually doing. But. It is pretty clear, based on many posts, explanations and examples that I've given, that what I say, works for all kinds of people. And that is what matters most as that's what dharma is about.

I do not deny that I  wouldn't do marketing for the Open Heart-approach, which is not my creation, but that of my masters. Money or fame is not my motive. People who know me, knows this. If someone is interested, I've lived the whole time I've been a professional teacher on less than minimun income. Hand to mouth. But that's beside the point. I care about helping people in their crucial problems and have been able to help them in their crucial problems. That's what matters the most to me. That's why I'm committed to my work. And because I know that these methods actually work, is why I toot my horn, while proving what I say, so that the word gets around, in order to help many others. There are so many people out there or here in a deep existential swamp, so I feel I wish to do my share in trying to help them out, in the best of my ability.

This is marketing, for sure, but the motive should be understood by people who critisize me for "self-promoting" while hinting along the lines that this is just another cock of a guru who might manage to attract a following and will end up screwing it up like other loud fools. No. I have made and proved my points. Just read my posts. From this point of view, I have always felt that DhO is the best place to demonstrate my "case", or the case of Open Heart-method, because people here are able understand what is being said and do not just go with on accepting or denying a mere belief.

About superiority over other teachers. To interpret my texts such as those about Sheng Yen, Shinzen Young and the whole Bhumi
Study Series, as attempts to lift myself above other teachers is plainly foolish. Again, you have missed the very points I've said, if you think this way. In the text about Yen and Young, they deserved the criticism, about those specific points that I made, based on their direct quotes. I never said that what they teach is bullcrap all the way. I'd never say that because it isn't true.

I do realise that the Bhumi Study shows many world teachers at a lower bhumi than myself or my fellow teachers. What can I say. Except that that is the outcome of my study. Prove me otherwise, (please !) but don't accuse me of raising myself above others, if you have not looked into it and studied what I say. The point of the series is not to put myself higher than others, or show the superiority of anyone, but in a reasonable way study what exactly is going on. The point of the whole thing is to burst bubbles, bring realism into dharma scene in way that hasn't been done before. I am not just boasting that "this or that teacher is lower than me, hey look at me!", like has been done by some gurus.

The Bhumi Study Series is a study, an analysis, not a claim.Like I said, prove me otherwise. I have welcomed anyone to see if what I say is correct or not. The materials are out there. Study them and let me know.

Cheers,

Baba

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 4:03 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Dear Baba,

I see you bring up the topic of "proof", as in:

A ) That your claims have been proved correct.

B ) Asking others to disprove your claims on the attainments of famous teachers, as well as yourself.

I would like to answer this specific point, because the notion of proof is a very important one, and you are not doing the concept of proof justice with these claims and challenges. Your statements lack a number of characteristics to be considered proved - or even provable.

1) First of all, one could doubt the hypothesis behind your work: that attainments can be measured, that is, that the classification of bhumis you propose makes sense, and how it can be measured independently of looking at pictures.

2) Conceding (1) for argument's sake, you have not proved that there is a correlation between what you see in a picture and the bhumi itself. If the definition of the bhumi is "what is seen in the picture", this is of course circular reasoning. We need two different ways to measure the bhumi: The picture one, and a different one, e.g. an interview.

3) Assuming we have two different measures, one would have to test them separately. This would require several different conditions. First of all, the definition of a protocol that can be repeated by different people, and which could potentially provide consistent values. Then, a test population (for example, made up of people who practice and do not practice meditation). Then, two or more different evaluators, who evaluate the people's attainments blindly (independently, without knowing what the other evaluators are doing). Next, the results would need be compared, to see if there is any degree of coherence between one evaluator's measure and another one's. Finally, these measures would have to be repeated by different groups.

4) After (3) has been done for the two different measuring techniques separately (the pictures one, and the other, as yet unspecified, one), yet another study would be necessary, in which a good number of people are evaluated using the two different measuring techniques, and the correlation between the two measuring techinques is esitmated. This last study would need to be double blind. This means several things, for example, that the evaluator applying technique A should have no access to the result from technique B. So if technique A involves looking at pictures, and technique B requires an interview, the interviews should be performed in a way that the interviewer has no way of seeing person A's face - and the people looking at the pictures would need to not know anything about the person.

This is just a very simplified explanation of what would be required for your claims to be considered proved. There are tens of potential pitfalls in the procedures I have outlined, and the experiments would need to be repeated independently by different groups. This does not, of course, mean that your claims are false: Just that they your claims are neither proved nor provable nor falsifiable at the current state of development of your method.

I do encourage you to try and devise a way to test your claims in a scientific manner, and I would suggest that you try and get some scientifically trained researcher, or, better, a scientific institution, such as a university, involved. But, until you propose a scientifically rigorous protocol, and this protocol is applied and verified by independent sources, I think you should refrain from stating that your claims are proved.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 5:55 AM as a reply to neko.
neko:
Dear Baba,

I see you bring up the topic of "proof", as in:

A ) That your claims have been proved correct.

B ) Asking others to disprove your claims on the attainments of famous teachers, as well as yourself.

I would like to answer this specific point, because the notion of proof is a very important one, and you are not doing the concept of proof justice with these claims and challenges. Your statements lack a number of characteristics to be considered proved - or even provable.

1) First of all, one could doubt the hypothesis behind your work: that attainments can be measured, that is, that the classification of bhumis you propose makes sense, and how it can be measured independently of looking at pictures.

2) Conceding (1) for argument's sake, you have not proved that there is a correlation between what you see in a picture and the bhumi itself. If the definition of the bhumi is "what is seen in the picture", this is of course circular reasoning. We need two different ways to measure the bhumi: The picture one, and a different one, e.g. an interview.

3) Assuming we have two different measures, one would have to test them separately. This would require several different conditions. First of all, the definition of a protocol that can be repeated by different people, and which could potentially provide consistent values. Then, a test population (for example, made up of people who practice and do not practice meditation). Then, two or more different evaluators, who evaluate the people's attainments blindly (independently, without knowing what the other evaluators are doing). Next, the results would need be compared, to see if there is any degree of coherence between one evaluator's measure and another one's. Finally, these measures would have to be repeated by different groups.

4) After (3) has been done for the two different measuring techniques separately (the pictures one, and the other, as yet unspecified, one), yet another study would be necessary, in which a good number of people are evaluated using the two different measuring techniques, and the correlation between the two measuring techinques is esitmated. This last study would need to be double blind. This means several things, for example, that the evaluator applying technique A should have no access to the result from technique B. So if technique A involves looking at pictures, and technique B requires an interview, the interviews should be performed in a way that the interviewer has no way of seeing person A's face - and the people looking at the pictures would need to not know anything about the person.

This is just a very simplified explanation of what would be required for your claims to be considered proved. There are tens of potential pitfalls in the procedures I have outlined, and the experiments would need to be repeated independently by different groups. This does not, of course, mean that your claims are false: Just that they your claims are neither proved nor provable nor falsifiable at the current state of development of your method.

I do encourage you to try and devise a way to test your claims in a scientific manner, and I would suggest that you try and get some scientifically trained researcher, or, better, a scientific institution, such as a university, involved. But, until you propose a scientifically rigorous protocol, and this protocol is applied and verified by independent sources, I think you should refrain from stating that your claims are proved.

Hi Neko,

I'll take and answer at the Bhumi Study-topic as that's what your post is about.

Here: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5825815#_19_message_5827884

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 7:10 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami --

This is marketing, for sure, but the motive should be understood by people who critisize me for "self-promoting" while hinting along the lines that this is just another cock of a guru who might manage to attract a following and will end up screwing it up like other loud fools. No. I have made and proved my points. Just read my posts. From this point of view, I have always felt that DhO is the best place to demonstrate my "case", or the case of Open Heart-method, because people here are able understand what is being said and do not just go with on accepting or denying a mere belief.

This is really very, very simple. Stop promoting yourself. Don't come here to be a marketer or an advertiser. Come here to be a member of a community that discusses dharma practice with each other. It has nothing to do with proving a point, being better or worse than anyone else or having a better system of practice. Advertising and promotion is just annoying and rude - and it's an abuse of everyone else's good intentions, time and consideration.

For you, or anyone, to use the discussion boards here to advertise their services is simply wrong. It seems to me, reading your replies, that you know that to be the case but no one here, moderators included, have shut you down. You've seen comments right here by a number of people telling you this same thing in different ways.

Stop arguing about it.

Stop making your "case."

Stop advertising.

Just stop.







RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 8:20 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
[quote=
]
Chris Marti:

This is really very, very simple. Stop promoting yourself. Don't come here to be a marketer or an advertiser. Come here to be a member of a community that discusses dharma practice with each other. It has nothing to do with proving a point, being better or worse than anyone else or having a better system of practice. Advertising and promotion is just annoying and rude - and it's an abuse of everyone else's good intentions, time and consideration.

For you, or anyone, to use the discussion boards here to advertise their services is simply wrong. It seems to me, reading your replies, that you know that to be the case but no one here, moderators included, have shut you down. You've seen comments right here by a number of people telling you this same thing in different ways.

Stop arguing about it.
Stop making your "case."
Stop advertising.
Just stop.




Hello Chris,

One of those "just stop" posts, huh? Seen many of those but never one aimed at me before. Harsh.

Are
my posts not dharma? Am I not talking about the dharma with the
community here? The difference between my dharma practice with most
people here is that I do not have a theravada-history, nor speak in
those terms. Looking at the statsitics of the topics that I've started,
it seems that for most people it is interesting and enlightening to see
just what I have said here, regardless of what one follows. And there
are some who at a beginning or mature stages have asked for my advice,
for their benefit. Therefore, my posts or my "case" has been useful and
beneficial. I wonder how you guys can take it so personally and
narrowmindedly.

So, "number of people" or "several individuals"
are telling me stop doing what I have been doing because it's "wrong"
and "abuse". That's three people in this thread. Doesn't seem as bad of a
situation to me as it looks to you. After all there are more people who
have directly benefited of what I have expressed than there are
complaints. And hundreds of people who have read my posts which gives a
image that people are interested. Can you appreciate that Chris?

Just being myself and doing what I know best, hoping that maybe it is of help to someone. 

Baba

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 8:54 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
After all there are more people who have directly benefited of what I have expressed than there are  complaints. And hundreds of people who have read my posts which gives a  image that people are interested. Can you appreciate that Chris?

This is disingenuous. People read all kinds of things they don't like or agree with. In fact, topics folks tend to disagree with typically get more traffic than others. You have no idea who agrees with what you're doing and who doesn't, and who or how many others just aren't complaining about you because your pandering doesn't rise to the level of nuisance that would cause them to say something. Further, the tone and nature of your reply tells me that you've been through this before, probably elsewhere on the web. I find that fact, more than anything else, very telling.









RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 9:46 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:

This is disingenuous. People read all kinds of things they don't like or agree with. In fact, topics folks tend to disagree with typically get more traffic than others. You have no idea who agrees with what you're doing and who doesn't, and who or how many others just aren't complaining about you because your pandering doesn't rise to the level of nuisance that would cause them to say something. Further, the tone and nature of your reply tells me that you've been through this before, probably elsewhere on the web. I find that fact, more than anything else, very telling.


>You have no idea who agrees with what you're doing and who doesn't, and who
or how many others just aren't complaining about you because your
pandering doesn't rise to the level of nuisance that would cause them to
say something.

- And you do?

>Further, the tone and nature of your reply tells me that you've been through
this before, probably elsewhere on the web. I find that fact, more than
anything else, very telling.

- Very telling huh? No, I haven't been in this situation before. Which is ridiculous, in my opinion. Live and let live.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 11:35 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
So... good to know that at least you're not a serial offender  emoticon

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 11:59 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
So, "number of people" or "several individuals" are telling me stop doing what I have been doing because it's "wrong" and "abuse". That's three people in this thread. Doesn't seem as bad of a situation to me as it looks to you.


#4 - Just stop.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 1:22 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Count me as another of the 'just stop' group.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 1:30 PM as a reply to Darrell.
This isn't directed at Kim, this is a generalized question that is prompted by the nature of this thread.

Why is it when anyone finds enlightenment/liberation/awakenening, etc they immediately set about to use it as a source of profit? I'm not against someone making money, and especially supporting themselves. I always felt that the Dhamma really was better off not for sale. I forget which Thai teacher said that, but it seemed wise to me. I made good sense. But here in the west, everything has a dollar sign on it. There was one fellow, I only recall his last name, which I believe was Rose, who kept his livelihood, and taught people at his home. He made it work. But it seems so many reach this place, whatever you choose to call it, and they immediately hang out a shingle.

PS: Chris Macie - Right, I was familiar with the biblical reference, but wasn't sure if the comment was intended to be humorous or pointed. Or both. I didn't want to make an assumption, but as I was interpreting it, I thought the comment might have been a barbed comment for ladyfrog, or whatever her name was.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 2:03 PM as a reply to Darrell.
For what it's worth, since we are counting people, I would also prefer to see a bit less of the self-promotion from you Baba. I do find your contributions interesting (while not agreeing with them 100%). You are not the first or last member of this forum that teaches professionally. But, from what I could see, whether they were more famous than yourself or not, they did not sign every darn post with a link to their website.

A similar point could be made about claims to attainments, which this community welcomes, but not necessarily in the form of "I have over 9000 enlightenment points more than celebrities X, Y and Z."

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 2:16 PM as a reply to Darrell.
Darrell:
This isn't directed at Kim, this is a generalized question that is prompted by the nature of this thread.

Why is it when anyone finds enlightenment/liberation/awakenening, etc they immediately set about to use it as a source of profit? I'm not against someone making money, and especially supporting themselves. I always felt that the Dhamma really was better off not for sale. I forget which Thai teacher said that, but it seemed wise to me. I made good sense. But here in the west, everything has a dollar sign on it. There was one fellow, I only recall his last name, which I believe was Rose, who kept his livelihood, and taught people at his home. He made it work. But it seems so many reach this place, whatever you choose to call it, and they immediately hang out a shingle.

PS: Chris Macie - Right, I was familiar with the biblical reference, but wasn't sure if the comment was intended to be humorous or pointed. Or both. I didn't want to make an assumption, but as I was interpreting it, I thought the comment might have been a barbed comment for ladyfrog, or whatever her name was.
Hi Darrell,

Yes, it is a good question. l recall some wiseman once saying that "a socialist financial system doesn't work within a capitalist frame". That has been my experience all the way. I remember when I used to set up courses and retreats based on donations. It was simply horrible. People without a culture of donating, simply don't "get it", even when you explain them. In order to keep sharing the dharma, I had to create a way to assure financial income.

At a meditation hall (shared by several groups) where I teach at Helsinki it is a common joke that the dana box is always empty. And above it nobely says, "Generosity is an important virtue which has enabled the sharing of buddha dharma for 2½ thousand years..." Well, without set fees, the place would have had to close down the next month after opening, 1½ years ago.

My observation is that it is usually from the theravada camp where people have the hardest time understanding this money-thing. For myself, it never was a problem. It's a way to make things work, nothing more than that. So why be obsessed, within our capitalist system (or I don't know the exact term I should use here), with money like that? It often seems like when people see that there are set fees for courses and when the teacher is a full time teacher, the people directly assume, "Oh shit, this guy is a hoax. He's just making business, ripping people off! Dharma should be free because it is about our true nature!". The maturity of this logic is ridiculous.

I would love to work on donations, and not worry of money at all, but know that it won't work here. I assume many dharma teachers would love to be able to sustain on donations. It's only realistic to deal with the financial side some other way in this culture. And there are many like me, who have very reasonable pricing, with whom people can always negotiate it, if needed. A percentage of people I work with, maybe 10-15 % of them all, never pay me anything because their finances don't allow it. Nevertheless, they are as welcome as people who according to the sliding pricing scale pay the fullest amount (who are few also).

We need to remember that in the East, in the old buddhist countries there are the local communities of people who give money, give the temple food and so on. And the monks do go asking for it on walking rounds. I used to do it myself back in a Japanese monastery. Is that not asking for support, for money? Is that not creating a situation where people can explicitly give money or food for the temple? Without this support the temples couldn't sustain, and couldn't have sustained for 2500 years...

Fixed on this idea, some folks, as some here, insist that "dharma should be free" and so on. Fine, fine... I'd be happy to give teachings for free but how will I pay the rent next month, pay the electric bill, pay food for my family, pay food for my cats and so on...? And keep teaching!?

So friends... be realistic. Or if you want to complain about people making big money with dharma write a letter to TM-movement.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 2:12 PM as a reply to neko.
neko:
For what it's worth, since we are counting people, I would also prefer to see a bit less of the self-promotion from you Baba. I do find your contributions interesting (while not agreeing with them 100%). You are not the first or last member of this forum that teaches professionally. But, from what I could see, whether they were more famous than yourself or not, they did not sign every darn post with a link to their website.

A similar point could be made about claims to attainments, which this community welcomes, but not necessarily in the form of "I have over 9000 enlightenment points more than celebrities X, Y and Z."

Neko-chan,

A bit less of self-promotion. To me it's all the same if everyone here did attach a web adress under their posts. What's the problem with that? and where, exactly? Anyway, I hear you. Fair enough.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 2:19 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
By your words, Kim, one can get the impression that you don't understand and/or are not acknowledging the points that are others are trying to bring to the thread.  That you are acting in a way that numerous others find in some way offensive.  And while the 'live and let live' mantra is IMO good general advice when it comes to living life, but when it comes to running an internet board, most find that some level of rules, limits, and enforcement are needed to keep a board running smoothly and with more interesting content.  And even if you think what you are doing is not offensive, a number of people who typically are not easily offended are in fact now being offended.  The fact that you do not seem to be understanding or acknowledging their concerns is going to just make them even more irritated.  Some attempts have been made to explain it to you but you do not seem to be understanding the points at all.

Instead you have said you have 'proved' your points such that they are no longer 'claims.'  Well it's pretty hard to prove anything on the internet and quotes from people we have never heard from before do not constitute proof, this being one of the oldest advertising methods in the book, and one that cannot be verified.  And most schools will of course have some followers that will attest to success with their method anyway.  And you ahve given statistics that have been accumulated in totally unknown ways to us, we have no way of verifying any of that either, there has been no peer review or unbiased verification of anything.  So goes it with all claims, we have many on here that have come and gone making all kinds of claims and we have no way of knowing the percentage of proof in any of it.  I find it surprising that you do not undersatnd that you are in that same category and what you have given does not constitute proof in any way. 

Now you are saying people are being harsh with you but on the contrary, I think people have been more patient than average, first holding their tongues, then saying it vaguely so you might get the clue without getting directly called out, then trying to explain it to you more directly, and then finally when all that did not work, just asking you to stop directly in plain English. 

There does seem to be a rather wide gulf between the narrative you are telling yourself and others about your motivations and intent and the impression that others are actually getting about them via your actual actions.  And many of our impressions of your actions have been rather cohesively similar.  Whether you do or do not have money or whether you did or did not invent the method yourself is really beside the point.  Lots of poeple here are poor and/or selfless, others have had bad childhoods or have other disabilities or difficulties, but the board does not give them special leeway because of it. And lots of people here have written posts challenging other methods or come from nonTheravida methods (me included), but yet did not get flack for it or be accused of ulterior motives.  So I think your personal narrative of why you are being challenged and why you should not be challenged are not lining up with the actual thoughts and beliefs of those that are challenging  you. 

The original post was if I remember correctly a statement about not liking too much commercial activity on the board.  And I think that is a valid point of discussion.  How much is too much, who decides, how do you draw the line, what options are available to address the issue, will it be merely social peer pressure or will the board mods decide to take action, etc?  This kind of issue has come up on many boards I have been on. Some groups go so far as to ban even the hint of advertising (not my personal preference).   Sooner or later, this kind of issue usually needs to be addressed, but I can't say I have all the magic answers though.  ;-P
-Eva
[quote=

Kim Katami]

Hello Chris,

One of those "just stop" posts, huh? Seen many of those but never one aimed at me before. Harsh.

Are
my posts not dharma? Am I not talking about the dharma with the
community here? The difference between my dharma practice with most
people here is that I do not have a theravada-history, nor speak in
those terms. Looking at the statsitics of the topics that I've started,
it seems that for most people it is interesting and enlightening to see
just what I have said here, regardless of what one follows. And there
are some who at a beginning or mature stages have asked for my advice,
for their benefit. Therefore, my posts or my "case" has been useful and
beneficial. I wonder how you guys can take it so personally and
narrowmindedly.

So, "number of people" or "several individuals"
are telling me stop doing what I have been doing because it's "wrong"
and "abuse". That's three people in this thread. Doesn't seem as bad of a
situation to me as it looks to you. After all there are more people who
have directly benefited of what I have expressed than there are
complaints. And hundreds of people who have read my posts which gives a
image that people are interested. Can you appreciate that Chris?

Just being myself and doing what I know best, hoping that maybe it is of help to someone. 

Baba

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 4:38 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

Fixed on this idea, some folks, as some here, insist that "dharma should be free" and so on. Fine, fine... I'd be happy to give teachings for free but how will I pay the rent next month, pay the electric bill, pay food for my family, pay food for my cats and so on...? And keep teaching!?

So friends... be realistic. Or if you want to complain about people making big money with dharma write a letter to TM-movement.

For some reason, you keep avoiding the actual complaint and point of what people are saying and instead veering off and answering things that no one has said at all. No one is saying you should work for free or that people should not charge.  Lots of people charge including TM and that's a whole different discussion.  But none of those people who charge, including TM, are on here often self promoting like you are.  If they were on here doing the same, then people would be complaining about them too.  What people do not want is money changers in the temple, there is a place and time for advertising but if I see this place as the temple, then following the analogy, I feel this is not the place for advertising and money changing. Not in the place I think of as like a temple.  Jesus was complaining about money changing set up blatantly and overtly IN THE TEMPLE.  But he did not specifically complain (to my knowledge) about such things happening in the regular market place or in places where it would normally be expected.       

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 5:19 PM as a reply to Darrell.
Why is it when anyone finds enlightenment/liberation/awakenening, etc they immediately set about to use it as a source of profit?


Great question, Darrell.

I have personal experience with this phenomenon. It's based in ego. It's sourced in thinking that "I" am now enlightened and so I know more than those other people. So obviously, I should teach. I should be like Daniel, or Kenneth, or Poobah Muckety Muck, or whoever I now liken myself to in terms of spiritual accomplishment.

I tried teaching for a while and it became abundantly clear to me pretty quickly that I wasn't doing it for the right reasons. So I quit doing it and those who were my students were no doubt immediately better off.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 5:18 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
So friends... be realistic. Or if you want to complain about people making big money with dharma write a letter to TM-movement.


No one raised the issue of money.

Kim, if you have any kind of self-awareness going on you need to, and will be able to, stop for a few minutes, read and then pay attention to your own replies in this thread. You are missing the point of the issues being raised about you, as Eva has eloquently pointed out. You have become your own worst enemy here and with every additional errant comment you miss a golden opportunity to set things right, with yourself as much as with anyone else here.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/25/16 5:41 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

What's the problem with that? and where, exactly?

It affects the discussion. Posts ending with self-promoting links tend to be, in my experience, of worse quality. By putting something more at stake than just the thing that is being discussed, the ad subtly skews the content in directions that I find unskillfull and misleading. A discussion that should be about ideas becomes, partly, one about people. Identities and ego stuff get in the way of a frank discussion.

These are general remarks. I suspect that they might apply to what you post as well, although I might well be wrong. (I have no problem with you charging for teaching,  since you brought that up in another comment.)

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/26/16 1:41 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva Nie:
By your words, Kim, one can get the impression that you don't understand and/or are not acknowledging the points that are others are trying to bring to the thread.  That you are acting in a way that numerous others find in some way offensive.  And while the 'live and let live' mantra is IMO good general advice when it comes to living life, but when it comes to running an internet board, most find that some level of rules, limits, and enforcement are needed to keep a board running smoothly and with more interesting content.  And even if you think what you are doing is not offensive, a number of people who typically are not easily offended are in fact now being offended.  The fact that you do not seem to be understanding or acknowledging their concerns is going to just make them even more irritated.  Some attempts have been made to explain it to you but you do not seem to be understanding the points at all.

Instead you have said you have 'proved' your points such that they are no longer 'claims.'  Well it's pretty hard to prove anything on the internet and quotes from people we have never heard from before do not constitute proof, this being one of the oldest advertising methods in the book, and one that cannot be verified.  And most schools will of course have some followers that will attest to success with their method anyway.  And you ahve given statistics that have been accumulated in totally unknown ways to us, we have no way of verifying any of that either, there has been no peer review or unbiased verification of anything.  So goes it with all claims, we have many on here that have come and gone making all kinds of claims and we have no way of knowing the percentage of proof in any of it.  I find it surprising that you do not undersatnd that you are in that same category and what you have given does not constitute proof in any way. 

Now you are saying people are being harsh with you but on the contrary, I think people have been more patient than average, first holding their tongues, then saying it vaguely so you might get the clue without getting directly called out, then trying to explain it to you more directly, and then finally when all that did not work, just asking you to stop directly in plain English. 

There does seem to be a rather wide gulf between the narrative you are telling yourself and others about your motivations and intent and the impression that others are actually getting about them via your actual actions.  And many of our impressions of your actions have been rather cohesively similar.  Whether you do or do not have money or whether you did or did not invent the method yourself is really beside the point.  Lots of poeple here are poor and/or selfless, others have had bad childhoods or have other disabilities or difficulties, but the board does not give them special leeway because of it. And lots of people here have written posts challenging other methods or come from nonTheravida methods (me included), but yet did not get flack for it or be accused of ulterior motives.  So I think your personal narrative of why you are being challenged and why you should not be challenged are not lining up with the actual thoughts and beliefs of those that are challenging  you. 

The original post was if I remember correctly a statement about not liking too much commercial activity on the board.  And I think that is a valid point of discussion.  How much is too much, who decides, how do you draw the line, what options are available to address the issue, will it be merely social peer pressure or will the board mods decide to take action, etc?  This kind of issue has come up on many boards I have been on. Some groups go so far as to ban even the hint of advertising (not my personal preference).   Sooner or later, this kind of issue usually needs to be addressed, but I can't say I have all the magic answers though.  ;-P
-Eva
Eva,

>By your words, Kim, one can get the impression that you don;t understand and or are not acknowledging the
points that are others are trying to bring to the thread. That you are acting in a way that numerous others find in some way offensive

- I do acknowledge the points of others but do not agree with them. I see no problem here. It is also evident that what I have written has not been properly understood. But that's how it always ends up in the internet. I could have said "OK folks, won't post as many links anymore" since my first reply, but decided to discuss and open it up from my side. But it usually is when people feel offended that there will be no fruitful outcome of that in an internet discussion. Posts get interpreted in so many ways, in so many minds that weren't intended like that.

>And even if you think what you are doing is not offensive, a number of people who typically are not easily offended are in fact now being offended.  The fact that you do not seem to be understanding or acknowledging their concerns is going to just make them even more irritated.  Some attempts have been made to explain it to you but you do not seem to be understanding the points at all.

- I tried to explain my motives and experiences from different angles. Supposedly Chris Marti got some of them. And I did reply to Neko about his point on " a bit less of self-promotion", that it's OK for me (fair enough), even though I find no problem to begin with, with links.

> Now you are saying people are being harsh with you but on the contrary, I think people have been more patient than average, first holding their tongues, then saying it vaguely so you might get the clue without getting directly called out, then trying to explain it to you more directly, and then finally when all that did not work, just asking you to stop directly in plain English.

- I've seen a number of "just stop" -posts on a couple of forums. It is harsh and arrogant, when the discussion continues. But anyway.

Darrell:
This isn't directed at Kim, this is a generalized question that is prompted by the nature of this thread.

Why is it when anyone finds enlightenment/liberation/awakenening, etc they
immediately set about to use it as a source of profit? I'm not against
someone making money, and especially supporting themselves. I always
felt that the Dhamma really was better off not for sale
....
Eva Nie:
Kim Katami:

Fixed on this idea, some folks, as some here, insist that "dharma should be
free" and so on. Fine, fine... I'd be happy to give teachings for free
but how will I pay the rent next month, pay the electric bill, pay food
for my family, pay food for my cats and so on...? And keep teaching!?

So friends... be realistic. Or if you want to complain about people making big money with dharma write a letter to TM-movement.

For some reason, you keep... and instead veering off and answering things that no one has said at all.
No one is saying you should work for free or that people should not charge.
 
Chris Marti:
So friends... be realistic. Or if you want to complain about people making big money with dharma write a letter to TM-movement.
No one raised the issue of money.

Darrell did raise this issue of money vs. dharma. I was writing what came to my mind about this.
neko:
Kim Katami:

What's the problem with that? and where, exactly?

It affects the discussion. Posts ending with self-promoting links tend to
be, in my experience, of worse quality.
By putting something more at
stake than just the thing that is being discussed, the ad subtly skews
the content in directions that I find unskillfull and misleading. A
discussion that should be about ideas becomes, partly, one about people.
Identities and ego stuff get in the way of a frank discussion.

These are general remarks. I suspect that they might apply to what you post
as well, although I might well be wrong. (I have no problem with you
charging for teaching,  since you brought that up in another comment.)
I suppose I am an ignoramus of some sort for not being able to see the problem in this. On some forums I've seen people have links of their own lineage and teachers have links of their temples, as a signature under their every single post. And on such forums, I've never seen anyone get offended by that, whether money is involved or not, and it almost always is. On some other forums on the other hand there is an extreme policy about all kinds of links to the extent that moderators go through every single link posted to see if price tags are anywhere to be found. And in case there are they are removed immediately. So what Chris Macie said about this forum being self-moderating. I get the point.

Even though I don't see a problem of me posting Open Heart-links in most (not all) posts, I will tone it down. OK.

Have a nice day folks,

Baba

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/26/16 6:48 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I will tone it down. OK.


Thank you very much for listening and taking an appropriate action. That is dharma.

.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/26/16 10:39 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:


- I do acknowledge the points of others but do not agree with them. I see no problem here. It is also evident that what I have written has not been properly understood.
I think we understood your points just fine, we just did not agree with them.  We don't want to see excessive commercialism here.  You may see no problem but we do.  

- I tried to explain my motives and experiences from different angles. Supposedly Chris Marti got some of them. And I did reply to Neko about his point on " a bit less of self-promotion", that it's OK for me (fair enough), even though I find no problem to begin with, with links.
It is not just links, it is also that you came to an unknown board, made a lot of unproven very high handed claims that you were above most of the great masters, claimed you had proof when you have none, and made a large majority of your posts not just with a link about the bottom but being about your method was better than everyone else's and also spammed the board with quotes from unknown people about how great your method is.  As the weeks went past, people eventually got tired of reading the commercialism.  To say it was just about a few links is extreme minimizing.  It is not just about a few links. 

> Now you are saying people are being harsh with you but on the contrary, I think people have been more patient than average, first holding their tongues, then saying it vaguely so you might get the clue without getting directly called out, then trying to explain it to you more directly, and then finally when all that did not work, just asking you to stop directly in plain English.

- I've seen a number of "just stop" -posts on a couple of forums. It is harsh and arrogant, when the discussion continues. But anyway.
That is your opinion.  IME, if the person doing something unwanted is not able to understand and is unwilling to comply with majority opinion, sometimes it may be needed and appropriate. 
I suppose I am an ignoramus of some sort for not being able to see the problem in this. On some forums I've seen people have links of their own lineage and teachers have links of their temples, as a signature under their every single post. And on such forums, I've never seen anyone get offended by that, whether money is involved or not, and it almost always is. On some other forums on the other hand there is an extreme policy about all kinds of links to the extent that moderators go through every single link posted to see if price tags are anywhere to be found. And in case there are they are removed immediately. So what Chris Macie said about this forum being self-moderating. I get the point.
Well yes, it's nice to have a middle ground, but IMO the reason why some boards get strict is because some people abuse any leeway given by trying to get away with as much as possible and not follow the spirit of the law , and so eventually the solution is to crack down hard on it and everyone else has that was not abusing the system also has to suffer.  Most rules are made due to only a few percent of the population that does not care about what the rest of the community thinks and feels and so has to have specific strict rules to control them.  Right now you are one of the few percent that 'sees no problem' bringing a lot of commercialism to this board even though the majority do not like it and have repeatedly and directly requested you to stop.  In response after considerable pressure you have agreed to only tone it down a little bit and only in regards to links, not to the rest of your behavior.  You have also not acknowledged the validity of our concerns about this place being spammed by commercial posts.  One could easily get the impression your intention now is to change only slightly and then if challenged again, claim that you are abiding by the letter of what others said (but not by the spirit).  Let's hope you prove me wrong and do indeed plan to consider the spirit of our request and not just the minor details and that you do intend to actually make your posts noncommercial from this point on and that the concerns of the people on this board are something that you are interested in participating in.  I don't really get that impression but feel free to prove me wrong!  ;-P
-Eva 



RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/26/16 12:09 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
I just wanted to mention Eva, that I agree with your accurate and thoughtful analysis of this situation.

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/26/16 1:31 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva Nie
Kim Katami
- I tried to explain my motives and experiences from different angles. Supposedly Chris Marti got some of them. And I did reply to Neko about his point on " a bit less of self-promotion", that it's OK for me (fair enough), even though I find no problem to begin with, with links.
It is not just links, it is also that you came to an unknown board, made a lot of unproven very high handed claims that you were above most of the great masters, claimed you had proof when you have none, and made a large majority of your posts not just with a link about the bottom but being about your method was better than everyone else's and also spammed the board with quotes from unknown people about how great your method is.  As the weeks went past, people eventually got tired of reading the commercialism.  To say it was just about a few links is extreme minimizing.  It is not just about a few links. 
-Eva 



Eva's post contains so much mis-interpreted or entirely mis-understood information that I won't begin to straighten it out at this point. As the communication went down the drain time ago, there is no point to continue.

Cheers,

Baba










RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/26/16 2:29 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim,

I'm sure you've heard the old addage about perception... what matters to others is not what you think about what you mean but what they think about what you mean. If we, as communicators, continually find those we communicate with misunderstanding us then we have to step back and think about what it is we're not getting right about how we communicate to others. If we find this happening over and over, and we blame the others in every case, then we miss a real oportunity to learn something about ourselves. Are you missing this oportunity?

RE: dharma marketplace
Answer
2/26/16 3:19 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva Nie:
... In response after considerable pressure you have agreed to only tone it down a little bit and only in regards to links, not to the rest of your behavior.  You have also not acknowledged the validity of our concerns about this place being spammed by commercial posts.  One could easily get the impression your intention now is to change only slightly and then if challenged again, claim that you are abiding by the letter of what others said (but not by the spirit).  Let's hope you prove me wrong and do indeed plan to consider the spirit of our request and not just the minor details and that you do intend to actually make your posts noncommercial from this point on and that the concerns of the people on this board are something that you are interested in participating in.


Reading this I realise that there are two options:

1. People here have not at all understood what I have expressed carefully and in detail with my many posts concerning awakening and how, what, why about awakening, and the same about the Bhumi Study or
2. People here have not cared to look into what I have actually said, although I have repeatedly encouraged it.

Whichever it is, I think, these are the root causes about this whole thread of "dharma marketplace" which only deals with a part of the whole equation, that I am just spamming.

Regarding my writing on this forum in general, I have tried to chime in in discussions whenever the theme has been explained in a way that has been understandable to me, without too many theravada terms, for example. However, often it is just many Pali terms which is like Hebrew to me. Of course, I wish I could communicate and contribute more. As I wish people would ask me more so that I could within the borders of my understanding shed more light and make it more understandable of what I have said in my posts about the prev mentioned areas, to others. I get that my tantric methods and background is vastly different from the theravada orientation but anyway.

I have posted a lot of stuff, that people are annoyed of... I simply don't get it. Why get caught with unimportant stuff and miss all those points I have made? I cannot help thinking that my efforts through my posts have been mostly in vain in trying to contribute for the common cause.  I am happy to have found a few friends (three people have found my way of helping people to awaken and did awaken through a dialogue I offer) and contacts from here, though, of course.

Once again, I make the request to people here to read what I have said, all the texts, free e-book, videos and a huge amount of materials that I have delivered, and linked in order my posts not to appear as mere "hot air claims". It is asking much, I realise that, but I ask this for the sake of common dharma cause, not because of my dharma or your dharma, but for the benefit of all. I have tried to explain that I am not here just to beat my own drum to be elevated above others or anything like that narrowminded stuff. I do care for people, for seekers, serious about bodhisattva vows, you know. Based on what people have said here and how Eva puts my back against the wall with the above quote, I can only derive that only few here have studied what I have said.

One of the principles of DhO is: what works is key. I take this literally but I have to doubt if this is really the case here, with all respect. I do respect all kinds of traditions and teachers (despite of the results in Bhumi Study Series) but there is so much useless, misleading, vague and not-working stuff there. I get it that my claim of getting 46 people awaken out of 48 is a huge claim but at the same time I have provided much info in several forms to prove this for others to intellectually consider it. Regarding my own present attainment I have documented a 15 part video series since 2013 and put it online for people to study and see what the transformation is. To which the Bhumi Study Series of various teachers, including Open Heart-teachers is a continuation of. There's a lot there to study! There's a lot there to learn! There's a lot there for anyone to benefit from! What works is the key.

So if I my posting or "behaviour", as Eva puts it, is not welcome here, then fine, I'm out. I'm not intending to sound too dramatic about this but to me it seems that in some weird way the very principles of this forum have been forgotten in regards to the case I have made. Again, I'm puzzled how thoroughly people such as Eva or others have missed my points and have instead become annoyed about silly things.

Don't know if this post is going to make any difference but thanks anyway and all the best.

Cheers,

Baba

RE: dharma marketplace
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2/26/16 5:12 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Reading this I realise that there are two options: 

1. People here have not at all understood what I have expressed carefully and in detail with my many posts concerning awakening and how, what, why about awakening, and the same about the Bhumi Study or 

2. People here have not cared to look into what I have actually said, although I have repeatedly encouraged it.

Those are the only two options?

RE: dharma marketplace
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2/26/16 10:30 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Reading this I realise that there are two options: 

1. People here have not at all understood what I have expressed carefully and in detail with my many posts concerning awakening and how, what, why about awakening, and the same about the Bhumi Study or 

2. People here have not cared to look into what I have actually said, although I have repeatedly encouraged it.

Those are the only two options?
That was exactly what I was thinking!  But I think it makes a certain sense if you consider perspectives.  If you happen to come from a perspective where you believe very very strongly that your way is the best way and that you are best or close to the best to help others, and are not considering any other option, then to come to other places and talk about your way all the time and promote it would seem reasonable to you as the only logical course of action.  And coming from that belief perspective, anyone who did not agree with you that your way is the best might be just considered to be wrong or not paying attention.  If you believe a way is so great and others did not see it as so great, if your belief is very strong, then you may not consider anything beyond that belief in the greatness.  If others do not see the greatness, you may be inclined to assume that lots of others are blind and not that the belief is not great.  It would be hard to hold the belief that a certain way is the best way and that one was fully enlightened in that best way and then also hold the belief that one might be wrong.  The two beliefs would not coexist well, so one must either consider that one might be wrong in a core belief or the other conclusions available to avoid serious cognitive stress are that everyone else that does not see similarly  is either wrong or not paying attention.  And some girl who keeps complaining about the advertising is just mean and unfair and if she understood, then she would not complain. 

But to the rest of us, many of whom apparently do not believe such, there are many other options that we could also entertain besides just those two and probably those two are not going to be high on our list of most likely.  Because we don't come from that perspective of extreme belief in one particular method.  To me that method is just one of many others and so not entitled to any special treatment.
-Eva   

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2/27/16 10:58 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva --

If you happen to come from a perspective where you believe very very strongly that your way is the best way and that you are best or close to the best to help others, and are not considering any other option, then to come to other places and talk about your way all the time and promote it would seem reasonable to you as the only logical course of action.

I agree - but in my experience that perspective is stage dependent. It's based on an egoic view of how awakening occurs and a lack of experience, patience and understanding of the multitude of practices and awakening vectors that are available to human beings. It's a "my way or the highway" perspective. I say this because I have personal experience with it. I had it at one time -- a very serious case of it.



RE: dharma marketplace
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2/27/16 12:02 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Paweł K:
Imho there is very high probability that Kim will end up as only 13/13 Bhumi to be ever alive and everyone else including Amma will go down to much lower positions (or he invent more Bhumis !). It will happen as soon as group of followers increase enough to afford it. I feel Kim is getting desperate and try to do it as soon as possible and this cause increased effort at advertising. It happened many many times in the past with many gurus. They all used fancy names and over time as their follower base increased they were making transition form being merely taught by others to being avatars. All avatars help their followers by means such as burning their karma and all follower need to do is to surrender to his/her master. This is what biggest 'Baba's idol does and this is what he also described of being able to do. Same old same old...

As for his method: any method that does anything at all will be good for people like that. And the one he uses is actually very good. but it is not about awakening but merely relaxation of muscles that people take as definition of their own beings. Whole method could be taken separately and presented on projector from ppt file on some presentation of 'How to cope with stress' type. First concentrate and try to feel what is being thought as stress or expression of stress in body and then after short while try to make it exactly as it was where it was. It will almost always cause stress to dissipate or at least part of it and when done repeatedly it can make ridiculously big difference and enable states such as continuous flow state to be easily attainable. Comparing my method with the one Kim use to 'awaken' people it is obvious it is aiming at the same effect. These methods can even disable physical discomfort and pain so are quite potent and actually most systems use these effects. Most systems are just indirect with it, concentrate on bullshit aspects more than actual method.

This similarity made me initially interested in him but on further evaluation he feel like wax statue inside of which there is something he doesn't want anyone including himself to see. Ofcourse most people can see through appearances even without "kun gzhi" and so much so on board where most people practice Vipassana =)

ps. There is difference in self promotion betwen between being taunting and being downright obnoxious...

Self-moderating huh?

=> http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/home

RE: dharma marketplace
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2/27/16 10:49 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
-

I agree - but in my experience that perspective is stage dependent. It's based on an egoic view of how awakening occurs and a lack of experience, patience and understanding of the multitude of practices and awakening vectors that are available to human beings. It's a "my way or the highway" perspective. I say this because I have personal experience with it. I had it at one time -- a very serious case of it.

Could be, I know I went through a stage not super long ago I think of as my 'evangelical' stage where I had grand visions of saving the world. Looking back there was definitely a lot more ego and self grandiosity associated with it than I normally carry now which although the ideas themsevles I think were fine, I think the excessive ego involvement made them somehow not quite well developed or maybe the intent was too contaminated with all that ego.  I suspect it may be something like that a lot of vision and intuition are attained and you can see a lot further, but the ego is still in power on many levels so the ego gets inflated with all that new power.  Maybe it takes a while for the ego to settle down a bit after that for some poeple.  I'd be curious if such was a common stage for others.  
-Eva 

RE: dharma marketplace
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3/1/16 3:29 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
It seems to me that if someone wanted to teach, and not put a price tag on it, they could. How would they pay rent, buy groceries, etc? Simple, like most other people, by having a job. If we're talking about traveling around to people and not just locally, but across borders, away from home a long time, I see the neccessity, unless you're financially independent. Otherwise, as at least one other person I know of has done, remain gainfully employed, and have those who are sincerely seeking come to you.

And this raises another issue entirely which troubles me, and that is this business, literally, of exorbitant prices charged for retreats and the like. Don't those running the so-called "mushroom culture" centers realize they are excluding those out there who sincerely are working to walk the path, and need all the help they can get? I'm one of those. I can't afford these places, even with their scholarships. Same with Culadas, who I think is sincere in what he does.

If the buddha, Ajahn Mha Bua, Dipa Ma and others who "did what needed to be done" could see what the dhamma has turned into in the west, I feel they might just be appalled. Maybe.

It's interesting that the Goenka centers are making help and teaching available on a donation basis, and somehow are managing to remain open. And the Bhavana Society also makes retreats and teaching available for very affordable rates. So certainly it is possible to make the path of freedom from suffering available to those who want it.

Frankly, I think the western mind has become so conditioned on a very instinctual level, to try to make anything it can a source of income, that it infects everything that it touches. We've become the damned Ferengi from Star Trek.

Chris Marti - I *really* appreciated your honest response. That was very refreshing. It's the only time I can think of, when this subject has come up, that I've NOT seen someone try to make excuses for, rationalize, justify this sort of thing. 

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3/1/16 4:58 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva Nie:

I'd be curious if such was a common stage for others.  



Yes. In that book I mentioned, Buddha Brats, there's a whole chapter on it. It's called "Baby Buddha Syndrome."

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3/1/16 5:42 PM as a reply to Darrell.
Darrell:
It seems to me that if someone wanted to teach, and not put a price tag on it, they could. How would they pay rent, buy groceries, etc? Simple, like most other people, by having a job. If we're talking about traveling around to people and not just locally, but across borders, away from home a long time, I see the neccessity, unless you're financially independent. Otherwise, as at least one other person I know of has done, remain gainfully employed, and have those who are sincerely seeking come to you.

And this raises another issue entirely which troubles me, and that is this business, literally, of exorbitant prices charged for retreats and the like. Don't those running the so-called "mushroom culture" centers realize they are excluding those out there who sincerely are working to walk the path, and need all the help they can get? I'm one of those. I can't afford these places, even with their scholarships. Same with Culadas, who I think is sincere in what he does.

If the buddha, Ajahn Mha Bua, Dipa Ma and others who "did what needed to be done" could see what the dhamma has turned into in the west, I feel they might just be appalled. Maybe.

It's interesting that the Goenka centers are making help and teaching available on a donation basis, and somehow are managing to remain open. And the Bhavana Society also makes retreats and teaching available for very affordable rates. So certainly it is possible to make the path of freedom from suffering available to those who want it.

Frankly, I think the western mind has become so conditioned on a very instinctual level, to try to make anything it can a source of income, that it infects everything that it touches. We've become the damned Ferengi from Star Trek.

Chris Marti - I *really* appreciated your honest response. That was very refreshing. It's the only time I can think of, when this subject has come up, that I've NOT seen someone try to make excuses for, rationalize, justify this sort of thing. 

Hi Darrell,

These are some very goood points.

I want to chime in that I have found that a one on one teacher is not necessary.  Never met one in person, never been on a group retreat, or one single formal group meditation session.  Never met one single person face to face that has known or discussed the Dhamma.  Though I have listened to many dhamma talks on my ipod, and read many books and suttas.  Life is my retreat, people and situations are objects of meditation.  What I see, is that the path is DIY , a do it yourself job when it gets down to the nitty gritty anyway.  A long time ago, before I even encountered the dhamma, I realized that the mind was basically the same where no matter where I was physically, whether a secluded beach, or in a room at home.

So, from my view, going on expensive retreats, and spending $$$ per hour to listen to someone talking just does not make much sense.

But, as it is said , to each his own, I have always been more of an independent type, the solo path seems to work in my instance.

My funniest encounter was camping in the woods for a week, solo, a couple years back, seeking silence.  Damn the forest can be noisy, a veritable city in its own right!!  lol

Well, and I guess I should give accolades to Daniel Ingram for setting up DhO, and many others for their informational sites and efforts as well!!  Hello!!  Without which, I would perhaps be some mushroom trying to grow in the dark.

So, there is gratefulness for that.  emoticon

Metta to all

Psi

RE: dharma marketplace
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3/1/16 9:23 PM as a reply to Darrell.
Darrell:
It seems to me that if someone wanted to teach, and not put a price tag on it, they could. How would they pay rent, buy groceries, etc? Simple, like most other people, by having a job. If we're talking about traveling around to people and not just locally, but across borders, away from home a long time, I see the neccessity, unless you're financially independent. Otherwise, as at least one other person I know of has done, remain gainfully employed, and have those who are sincerely seeking come to you.
Well yes, I agree with you, but I could also easily imagine if I truly felt teaching was my calling, I'd want ot do it ful time.  Unless I was independently wealthy already, then I'd need to charge or gain money from it somehow, or be a monk.   But I do stand by my opinion that charging is not in itself bad, but obviously it would be a LOT easier to get one's intt sullied by desires for money.  But also I think there are a lot that get their intent sullied by desire for ego stroking even if they have no interest in money.  Not charging is no proof of clean intent.  I suspect many fo the rules for monks were designed to maximise liklihood that neither fame no money were strong drivers of intent. One downside of people operating outside of traditions is those safeguards are no longer present.  But of course there are no 100% ways to insure training of clean intent either way.

And this raises another issue entirely which troubles me, and that is this business, literally, of exorbitant prices charged for retreats and the like. Don't those running the so-called "mushroom culture" centers realize they are excluding those out there who sincerely are working to walk the path, and need all the help they can get? I'm one of those. I can't afford these places, even with their scholarships. Same with Culadas, who I think is sincere in what he does.
Well IMO, retreats are not like medical treatment, you can do it yourself.  One could even organize your own retreat with a few friends.  And as you said, there are cheaper alternatives for those who look hard.  One can spend one's time complaining about the high priced ones or you could just appreciate that alternatives are available.  And there are many who just do it at home, you don't need a retreat.  

If the buddha, Ajahn Mha Bua, Dipa Ma and others who "did what needed to be done" could see what the dhamma has turned into in the west, I feel they might just be appalled. Maybe.
Hard to say.  Have things really changed much?  The main thing is spiritualism is more popular here now.  But in places where it was already popular, like India, they already had TONS of fraudsters too.  Whatever is popular, the con artists will try to make money on it. 

It's interesting that the Goenka centers are making help and teaching available on a donation basis, and somehow are managing to remain open. And the Bhavana Society also makes retreats and teaching available for very affordable rates. So certainly it is possible to make the path of freedom from suffering available to those who want it.

Frankly, I think the western mind has become so conditioned on a very instinctual level, to try to make anything it can a source of income, that it infects everything that it touches. We've become the damned Ferengi from Star Trek.
Not sure, maybe it's just that you hear less about the ones who teach quietly.  There are perhaps many on this board who teach quietly and do not advertise here and then just a few that advertise loudly.  (don't know myself, just guessing)


Chris Marti - I *really* appreciated your honest response. That was very refreshing. It's the only time I can think of, when this subject has come up, that I've NOT seen someone try to make excuses for, rationalize, justify this sort of thing. 
Yes, nice to hear about common mistakes first hand and that you got through it as well.  Most peopel are not willing to talk about mistakes. 
-Eva

RE: dharma marketplace
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3/1/16 9:27 PM as a reply to Psi.
That is an excellent point, and something I've thought about quite a bit lately, myself. The Buddha basically did it on his own, so why can't any other determined individual? Yet as someone who learned an unrelated craft (music) through other more skilled practitioners, I also recognize how help from the more experienced can help save time, and lead to a goal (or goals) in less time, as they can help one sidestep traps and pitfalls. But then, as you said, there's a wealth of information available to us, that Gotama didn't have. As you mentioned, there are books, dhamma talks, and the like. But I've heard it said, don't know how true it is, that jhana is something very difficult to attain, on your own, outside of a retreat environment.

I know I would probably benefit greatly from so good help, as I have yet to obtain what Daniel Ingram calls access concentration. And I've been at it for quite some time, and aggressively so for about a year now. And to help make your point, it seems that Culadasa's "The Mind Illuminated" is beginning to show results in that regard. But prior to that, I felt lost, and near hopeless at times. Some of that wasn't the result of lack of access to help, but being hindered by my family situation, in being unable to get away for a ten day retreat. So in my case, it's not simply a matter of being shut out due to finance. And due to my access to free air travel, I could make it to the Bhavana retreat up in Virginia. So I have some access to resources.

But then as true and good as all of this is, it misses the point. That being, that to put a price on teaching the path out of suffering, when everyone suffers, and all ought to be able to access it without impediment, is like putting a price or condition on the love of a parent for their child. The dhamma seems more like something of a human birthright. Perhaps that is over stating it, but if someone wants it, they should be able to have access to it, and help with it. To say, "Oh you want the way out of suffering, but can't afford it? I'm so sorry" just seems terribly cheap.

Most of this is pointed at the expensive "mushroom culture" centers, and some at one or two so-called pragmatic types. But really it is intended for anyone who is charging large sums of money for access to this, without thinking about what they are doing, or if they are making sure to help those that do not have the funds for help, etc.

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3/1/16 10:01 PM as a reply to Derek.
Derek:
Eva Nie:

I'd be curious if such was a common stage for others.  



Yes. In that book I mentioned, Buddha Brats, there's a whole chapter on it. It's called "Baby Buddha Syndrome."
Oh interesting!  Care to share any details of the chapter?
-Eva

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3/2/16 5:57 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Mainly it says to be careful if you're in this state, because if you're not careful, it's too easy to slip back into samsara.

I think I could get away with posting the opening of chapter 10 and counting it as "fair use":


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3/2/16 10:31 AM as a reply to Derek.
Derek:
Mainly it says to be careful if you're in this state, because if you're not careful, it's too easy to slip back into samsara.

I think I could get away with posting the opening of chapter 10 and counting it as "fair use":



Thank you!  Interesting but doesn't give much more info (not that I am surprised).  The whole process is pretty interesting but seems like we don't know the deep details of why and how, more like we at this point can just observe patterns and what seems to work more for more people. 
-Eva

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3/3/16 10:33 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva Nie:

doesn't give much more info


Well, I only quoted one page! Needless to say, there's more info if you read the entire book. As I said in my very brief review here, I do recommend it as worth reading.

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3/3/16 7:54 PM as a reply to Derek.
Derek:
Eva Nie:

doesn't give much more info


Well, I only quoted one page! Needless to say, there's more info if you read the entire book. As I said in my very brief review here, I do recommend it as worth reading.

Sorry, didn't mean my remark to sound snide but looking back now, I see that it does.  But my thinking was more like the basic concept is a simple one, that at a certain stage, ego can get really inflated.  So not sure what else majorly new there would be to say about it.  I think many of us have seen that kind of thing happen more than once on this board!  ;-P
-Eva

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3/8/16 5:23 PM as a reply to Derek.
Good intentions never lead to hell in Buddhism.