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Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 3:44 AM
Hello,

I do have a question if someone could answer it would be helpful. Thanks

If mind completely cease during Fruition, but the yogi has this memory of it? how does this review happens? and how the yogi be able to recall that memory moment to reoccur emptiness as one wish later on?

Does consciousness truly cease or does consciousness take Nibbana as the object during the fruition time?

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 7:14 AM as a reply to ANNA AIYAR.
While there's the view that there's a complete black-out of consciousness -- by some in the pragmatic camp with apparently some experience, and some in academic circles who lack first-hand experience, just devining interpretations of texts -- others, such as Thanissaro Bhikkhu, maintain firmly that there is in fact a "consciousness" there.

As to remembering, one traditional explanation is that after an experience, a sort of after-image is held briefly in the 'hadya-vattu' (the 'heart-basis')*, and can be reviewed there, that is somehow can be looked at and analyzed. This is the basis of the "review" mastery (last of the 5 masteries of jhana experience) where-in vipassana sort of attention is applied to deconstructing absorbed consciousness after emerging from it. This technique was recommended by one teacher of mine, who has long practice experience, with notable teachers (Mahasi, Goenke and Pa Auk S), and is rather pragmatic, for doing the review of jhana stages that's classically used to distinguish between them and proceed through them. Though there are major, significant differences, it's considered that jhanic absorption shares some qualtities with fruition or nibbana-type experiences, gives a degree of preview or foretaste of those higher attainments.

* for instance at http://www.dhammatalks.net/Articles/Hadaya_Vathu_Heart_Base.htm
"60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe them. It is manifested as the carrying of them. It is to be found in dependence on the blood, of the kind described in the treatise on the mindfulness of the body (Ch. VIII, 111), inside the heart. It is assisted by the primaries with their functions of upholding, etc.; it is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is
maintained by life; and it serves as physical basis for the mind-element and the mind-consciousness-element, and for the states associated with them.26
"
This description is remarkably close the the Chinese classical medical notion of the heart as the seat of consciousness, and that memory resides in the blood.
(There are reports of documented cases of people having strange, quasi-foreign experiences after receiving blood transfusions of not their own pre-stored blood.)

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 8:02 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
From personal experience over many cessation occurrences I will tell you that there is a total loss of consciousness during the cessation, and for however long that event takes. It's obvious to the practitioner because coming out of a cessation one can actually see the mind reboot, like a computer that has been restarted.

Again, this is coming from personal experience, not a scholarly view, not a text or second hand description. Experience matters  emoticon

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 3:38 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
From personal experience over many cessation occurrences I will tell you that there is a total loss of consciousness during the cessation, and for however long that event takes. It's obvious to the practitioner because coming out of a cessation one can actually see the mind reboot, like a computer that has been restarted.

Again, this is coming from personal experience, not a scholarly view, not a text or second hand description. Experience matters  emoticon

emoticon yeah Experience definitely matters... 

How do you recall the fruition moment ? to experience it again anytime/anywhere eyes open... 

Some practical guidance is helpful 

Thanks

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 3:41 PM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:
While there's the view that there's a complete black-out of consciousness -- by some in the pragmatic camp with apparently some experience, and some in academic circles who lack first-hand experience, just devining interpretations of texts -- others, such as Thanissaro Bhikkhu, maintain firmly that there is in fact a "consciousness" there.


Thank you Chris emoticon

Through your own experience... what do you suggest?

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 3:44 PM as a reply to ANNA AIYAR.
Paweł K:
In most clear fruitions experience was direct experience of mind meaning directly experiencing brain matter firing instead of images it creates, kinda peeking out of the system. 'Mind falling onto itself' kind of event, more like bright flash of mind-dump (like in computers memory dump when system crash) than momentary non-experience. But this flash is not in normal experience because it doesn't contain pointer to it. It can be seen looking behind everything but it not this moment but pointer to living structure, so experience seem random, not something remembered. This kind of experience can be experienced all the time via experiencing 'background', metaphorically behind any visualized content (all of normal experience) witch is kind kind of visualization itself but not being meant as visualization.

Those experiences are basis of my 'single-neuron experience' theories and other neuron network nonsense such as experience being projected onto universe via momentary quantum superposition of particles in special structures inside neurons which evolved in cells to be used as quantum computers and memory storage facilities and which can be used to experience universe itself if they invert polarity to experience background not of content of experience (like above) but bacground of experience itself which experience I identify as "Nirvikalpa Samadhi", the highest abode.

The so called non-experience can happen all the time. It actually happen so frequently that there is almost nothing but non-experience. At least it is how it looks when mind is quiet enough to be just above its true noise-floor. Going quieter (deepening sahaja samadhi) this non-experience is experienced as experience and is what is being meant by 'nibbana'. With very loud mind however this nibbana being there all the time is not experienced and momentary falling on it is experienced as non-experience. This loudness is caused by desire for relief which cause mind to be agitated, nibbana is seen as relief and reinforcing desire for relief making it impossible to actually see this experience as what it is but present it as non-experience: relief. When this is abandoned and mind quiet then nibbana is experienced most of the time with mind merely rising slightly from it to fall back to it again in the same moment thus there is more nibbana than experience.

ps. All experience is unsatisfactory, so it is not my fault if my answer is also unsatisfactory. Blame the experience ;)

Thank you Pawel emoticon, so in short... does it completely cease or not? 

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 3:53 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Complete black-out and back experience after the 3 pulses are significant moments on the Path/Fruition I think. What I mean by significant is that it is a complete out/in feeling... really noticible, profound... and the bliss wave that kind of happens is very strong... 

But the recall stage where one recalls the Fruitions over and over in the review stage are all the above, but in milder forms... of the same "blink out" but not as strong as the Path knowledge.. 

This is my view... any thoughts?

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 4:02 PM as a reply to ANNA AIYAR.
Just in reference to the general discussion happening here:

I have never had an experience, through meditation, that was a complete loss of consciousness for a noticably extended period of time, where, if I had looked at a clock, the second hand would have jumped forward.  There has always been some thin layer there watching, registering, but so altered and diminished that it did not resemble any other form of waking consciousness.  Within this 'thinly layered consciousness' period that usually lasts about 10 seconds, there may be one, two or three half-second instances where it feels like an electrical pulse is knocking my eyes back in their sockets, and I do lose a very small (i.e microseconds) amount of time.  These experiences are what I understand to be 'cessation and fruition.' 

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 4:11 PM as a reply to Noah.
[quote=Noah
there may be one, two or three half-second instances where it feels like an electrical pulse is knocking my eyes back in their sockets, and I do lose a very small (i.e microseconds) amount of time.  These experiences are what I understand to be 'cessation and fruition.' ]
emoticon This could be the Aniccha experience... in between is cessation... but can you pick up each time it pulses? all the time.. ?
when you say "these experiences" in plural ? that time lost in microseconds are always noticed ?

The texts say, only an Arahath can see it in day to day life.. 

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 4:35 PM as a reply to ANNA AIYAR.
Anna:

emoticon This could be the Aniccha experience... in between is cessation... but can you pick up each time it pulses? all the time.. ?
when you say "these experiences" in plural ? that time lost in microseconds are always noticed ?

The texts say, only an Arahath can see it in day to day life.. 


Actually those pulses have been the only time I can't "pick it up" (meaning detect or register, in conscious awareness).  I used to do martial arts so I relate the cessation to the feeling of getting hit hard in the head and blacking out for a second (minus the pain and stressful context).  But it has that sort of 'flinching' feel to it, when you close your eyes and expect to get hit, with the added traits of discontinuity in consciousness, and the inherent pleasure.  

When I was noting, it was a daily-life practice, so when I would experience these events, I would have to stop what I was doing at the time.  I'm not sure what to make of the textual reference to Arahats.  I figure cessations would happen to anyone who hangs out in high eq for long enough, and that could be done in formal meditation or daily life practice.

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 5:20 PM as a reply to Noah.
Noah:
When I was noting, it was a daily-life practice, so when I would experience these events, I would have to stop what I was doing at the time.  I'm not sure what to make of the textual reference to Arahats.  I figure cessations would happen to anyone who hangs out in high eq for long enough, and that could be done in formal meditation or daily life practice.
emoticon Has it occured when cessation hits 

Was that phala, or was that magga-phala?"

This is what I am trying to figure out recalling fruitions and regarding path/fruition moments... I think there is a significant difference and ie computer rebooting is one feel and when the computer has gone into sleep and when waking, one feel sort of thing... both for a split second goes "blank" but there is a difference.. 

Does anyone has direct experience of this difference between the Phala experience and magga-phala experience (I am just using the word "experience" here for actual cessation of course emoticon).. 

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 5:54 PM as a reply to ANNA AIYAR.
What do those terms mean?  Is phala any cessation, and magga phala the cessation of an actual path moment?

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/2/16 8:26 PM as a reply to Noah.
Noah:
What do those terms mean?  Is phala any cessation, and magga phala the cessation of an actual path moment?
What practice/model you follow ?, this is Theravada Map according to the 16 Insight Knowledges 

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/3/16 3:45 AM as a reply to ANNA AIYAR.
I've followed the theravada map in an amatuerish way.  i was asking cus I honestly don't know what the terms mean.  I tried googling them but there are a lot of different answers  Whats the 'for dummies' version of their meanings?

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/3/16 3:54 AM as a reply to Noah.
Noah:
I've followed the theravada map in an amatuerish way.  i was asking cus I honestly don't know what the terms mean.  I tried googling them but there are a lot of different answers  Whats the 'for dummies' version of their meanings?


Daniel Ingram and Kenneth Folk has written some excellent literature based upon this subject... also here is another link for you to check out... 

https://alohadharma.com/the-map/

Theravada maps are actually the Tripitaka Sutta's from the discourses of the Buddha but are so many, might take you years to finish reading all of them... emoticon also I would recommend direct Pali to english translation than commentaries of someone's transalation based upon their understanding which can be abit tricky. 

RE: Experiencing Nibbana, Fruition
Answer
2/3/16 6:21 AM as a reply to Noah.
Noah:
I've followed the theravada map in an amatuerish way.  i was asking cus I honestly don't know what the terms mean.  I tried googling them but there are a lot of different answers  Whats the 'for dummies' version of their meanings?


Try this link might help in understanding Magga/phala=nibbana and fruitition(phalasamapaththiya) 


http://www.saraniya.com/books/mahasi-sayadaw/pdf/mahasi_sayadaw-vipassana_treatise_volume_ii_part_ii.pdf