A New Path - Discussion
Just curious: have you been a chair yogi up until now? I'm a sofa yogi myself. 
My dream would be able to use a cushion, but I think I'm probably not going to manage it.
My dream would be able to use a cushion, but I think I'm probably not going to manage it.
Laurel Carrington:
Just curious: have you been a chair yogi up until now? I'm a sofa yogi myself. My dream would be able to use a cushion, but I think I'm probably not going to manage it.
My dream would be able to use a cushion, but I think I'm probably not going to manage it. Yeah I've been a chair/sofa yogi
Trying to change that.
Laurel Carrington:
Just curious: have you been a chair yogi up until now? I'm a sofa yogi myself. My dream would be able to use a cushion, but I think I'm probably not going to manage it.
My dream would be able to use a cushion, but I think I'm probably not going to manage it. -Eva
4.4
-30 min., anapanasati (morning): I'm bored, but more happy than I've been (I have to admit)
-Off-cushion: Some degree of mania at work, went with it instead of fearing the 'come down,' which was new for me. Also succeeded at integrating the mania with the mindfulness of breath, since they are usually mutually exclusive.
-30 min., anapanasati (night): Very sleepy this time, what the hell??.
-30 min., anapanasati (morning): I'm bored, but more happy than I've been (I have to admit)
-Off-cushion: Some degree of mania at work, went with it instead of fearing the 'come down,' which was new for me. Also succeeded at integrating the mania with the mindfulness of breath, since they are usually mutually exclusive.
-30 min., anapanasati (night): Very sleepy this time, what the hell??.
4.6
-30 min., anapanasati (morning): Did walking meditation halfway through due to sleepiness. In the moment for almost all of it. Noticed lots of things which wanted real estate in my mind, including analysis of my meditation: was able to let them go.
-Every so often I have either a fruition, a strong a&p, or a side-effect from a high eq, in which I sort of spontaneously recall the 'technical 4th path' realization that I had under Ron in July. It goes something like this; this moment is all there is, all there ever will be, and the only 'me' that exists, is completely interconnected with this moment, and will never exist, in any way, at all separate from it.
I just had an event like this, in the shower, that seemed to finally (after months of effort) be building on this realization. The add-on seems to be; this moment is all there is, AND I can definitely be joyful about it! Yipee.
-Going from working in a restaurant to an office is friggin stressful. The days are longer and less entertaining. There is more variance in the tasks required, and my degree of interest in those tasks. In short, whatever latent add-ishness I have inside is flaring up.
There is something to do about this. First off is understanding that all overflowing stress in non-dangerous situations is unnecessary. Secondly, understand that it is possible to consistently create positive emotions to over-ride this stress. Also, as I continue to stay in the moment, and get used to working in an office, it will get easier to do so over time. Finally, be willing to not come to a conclusion, not have sense of certainty about any of this, and to take it day by day.
-30 min., anapanasati (night): Something happened in this session. I wont write about it unless it sticks though
-30 min., anapanasati (morning): Did walking meditation halfway through due to sleepiness. In the moment for almost all of it. Noticed lots of things which wanted real estate in my mind, including analysis of my meditation: was able to let them go.
-Every so often I have either a fruition, a strong a&p, or a side-effect from a high eq, in which I sort of spontaneously recall the 'technical 4th path' realization that I had under Ron in July. It goes something like this; this moment is all there is, all there ever will be, and the only 'me' that exists, is completely interconnected with this moment, and will never exist, in any way, at all separate from it.
I just had an event like this, in the shower, that seemed to finally (after months of effort) be building on this realization. The add-on seems to be; this moment is all there is, AND I can definitely be joyful about it! Yipee.
-Going from working in a restaurant to an office is friggin stressful. The days are longer and less entertaining. There is more variance in the tasks required, and my degree of interest in those tasks. In short, whatever latent add-ishness I have inside is flaring up.
There is something to do about this. First off is understanding that all overflowing stress in non-dangerous situations is unnecessary. Secondly, understand that it is possible to consistently create positive emotions to over-ride this stress. Also, as I continue to stay in the moment, and get used to working in an office, it will get easier to do so over time. Finally, be willing to not come to a conclusion, not have sense of certainty about any of this, and to take it day by day.
-30 min., anapanasati (night): Something happened in this session. I wont write about it unless it sticks though
4.20
-I talked to a shrink today who said no to psychostimulants. Based on my records I'm probably 86'd from getting them forever. This put the final seal on any hope of escape from the path of discipline through the Dhamma that I have started. I now have no choice but to train my brain to be really fucking patient and joyful all the time! Oh what a joy haha!
-Not obsessing to others is not enough. I think I am going to stop talking about myself entirely. That will exclude this practice log. Hopefully self-asborption tendencies will disappear over time.
-40 min., afternoon: Sat in the sunny park
-40 min., night
-I talked to a shrink today who said no to psychostimulants. Based on my records I'm probably 86'd from getting them forever. This put the final seal on any hope of escape from the path of discipline through the Dhamma that I have started. I now have no choice but to train my brain to be really fucking patient and joyful all the time! Oh what a joy haha!
-Not obsessing to others is not enough. I think I am going to stop talking about myself entirely. That will exclude this practice log. Hopefully self-asborption tendencies will disappear over time.
-40 min., afternoon: Sat in the sunny park
-40 min., night
Noah:
Hey Stirling, I was just describing a thought I had during meditation, rather than a deeply held belief.
Stirling:
I have definitely seen that too, and it has had a very positive effect on my mind and life.
I must say "THIS IS IT" is correct and it's VERY real.
I have definitely seen that too, and it has had a very positive effect on my mind and life.
4.23
-60 min, morning: My breath was constricted, which was annoying. I used the shutter technique a couple times to crush obsessive thoughts.
-Off-cushion: I practiced "crushing" obsessive thoughts today successfully. The technique is in its early stages so it still feels odd.
-I met with an American Buddhist nun today from Buddhadasa's tradition. Interestingly, she knew both Dhammarato in Thailand when they were much younger, and Bill Hamilton at IMS in the 80's! She hadn't realized that Bill Hamilton took any students, or that he had died. Anyways, funny coincidences. I was disappointed that she wanted to direct me to one of her classes rather than just inviting me outright into her sangha. Overall, however, we had a very pleasant conversation.
-60 min, night: I felt the instinct to be 'received' by the environment. At first I resisted because it is a deviation from technique, but then remembered that I have vowed to have no rules Trying it, I felt a pleasant warmth hit my body. I found that I could sustain it with a type of subtle and irregular effort. This lasted for about ten minutes, which is longer than these 'effortless' events usually do for me.
-60 min, morning: My breath was constricted, which was annoying. I used the shutter technique a couple times to crush obsessive thoughts.
-Off-cushion: I practiced "crushing" obsessive thoughts today successfully. The technique is in its early stages so it still feels odd.
-I met with an American Buddhist nun today from Buddhadasa's tradition. Interestingly, she knew both Dhammarato in Thailand when they were much younger, and Bill Hamilton at IMS in the 80's! She hadn't realized that Bill Hamilton took any students, or that he had died. Anyways, funny coincidences. I was disappointed that she wanted to direct me to one of her classes rather than just inviting me outright into her sangha. Overall, however, we had a very pleasant conversation.
-60 min, night: I felt the instinct to be 'received' by the environment. At first I resisted because it is a deviation from technique, but then remembered that I have vowed to have no rules
Trying it, I felt a pleasant warmth hit my body. I found that I could sustain it with a type of subtle and irregular effort. This lasted for about ten minutes, which is longer than these 'effortless' events usually do for me.
Hi Caro,
No worries on hijacking my threads, I try to always encourage it! Admittedly, I have gotten offended in the past when I felt like people were attacking me, but that is pretty rare.
In terms of the balance between attachment and action in the world, my newest motto is to have decent, external life conditions, but a great way of internally operating within my skull. The way some pragmatic dharma people talk seems like they are more into stoicism and just being really calm amidst suffering, and less into actually have an integrated way of being that includes perceptual non-duality, cognitive understanding of the 3 c's, an appropriate set of attitudes according to those things, the cultivation of the right emotions based on those attitudes, and the habit of new actions that are expressions of those emotions. Every link in that chain is really important, and the 1st couple links that have to do most directly with insight development aren't enough and never were supposed to be enough, but its taken me about ten months (and a lot of obsessing and anguish) after finishing with Ron to figure that out. Anyways, beyond the aforementioned chain of events, (which I consider to be the supramundane 8folds), there is no point in caring or being attached to things, and it is possible not to, so I say fuck it
No worries on hijacking my threads, I try to always encourage it! Admittedly, I have gotten offended in the past when I felt like people were attacking me, but that is pretty rare.
In terms of the balance between attachment and action in the world, my newest motto is to have decent, external life conditions, but a great way of internally operating within my skull. The way some pragmatic dharma people talk seems like they are more into stoicism and just being really calm amidst suffering, and less into actually have an integrated way of being that includes perceptual non-duality, cognitive understanding of the 3 c's, an appropriate set of attitudes according to those things, the cultivation of the right emotions based on those attitudes, and the habit of new actions that are expressions of those emotions. Every link in that chain is really important, and the 1st couple links that have to do most directly with insight development aren't enough and never were supposed to be enough, but its taken me about ten months (and a lot of obsessing and anguish) after finishing with Ron to figure that out. Anyways, beyond the aforementioned chain of events, (which I consider to be the supramundane 8folds), there is no point in caring or being attached to things, and it is possible not to, so I say fuck it
5.7
-60 min., morning: When I begin a new technique, I have a surge of success, and then it levels out and becomes hard again. This is especially true with watching the stillness. I have had rapid increases in watching flow, gladdening, stopping thoughts, investigation, etc. But when it comes to stillness, it is against my very nature. Nonetheless, I feel the muscle slowly getting stronger. I can tolerate a slight tension for longer portions of stillness watching during the sits. And so it goes.
I have also been struggling with sleepiness as an obstacle, and frequently have to do standing or walking meditation for upwards of 40 minutes during my sits. This probably won't get better until I get a 9 to 5 schedule, as I currently work nights half the week, and days the other half. What a drag.
-Off-cushion practice
-Approx. 30 min., night: When I get sleepy, I try standing meditation. If I start to nod off while standing, I try walking meditation. Only when I actually begin to lose my balance walking, do I cut the meditation short
(
-60 min., morning: When I begin a new technique, I have a surge of success, and then it levels out and becomes hard again. This is especially true with watching the stillness. I have had rapid increases in watching flow, gladdening, stopping thoughts, investigation, etc. But when it comes to stillness, it is against my very nature. Nonetheless, I feel the muscle slowly getting stronger. I can tolerate a slight tension for longer portions of stillness watching during the sits. And so it goes.
I have also been struggling with sleepiness as an obstacle, and frequently have to do standing or walking meditation for upwards of 40 minutes during my sits. This probably won't get better until I get a 9 to 5 schedule, as I currently work nights half the week, and days the other half. What a drag.
-Off-cushion practice
-Approx. 30 min., night: When I get sleepy, I try standing meditation. If I start to nod off while standing, I try walking meditation. Only when I actually begin to lose my balance walking, do I cut the meditation short
(
6.12
-60 min., afternoon: Lots of thought-removal, medium amount of breath focus
-Sometimes I think "what a drag all this reconditioning is," but then I got moments where momentum shines through, and I see how it is already working.
-There is the contrasting thought, "look at how novel all of this reconditioning is! Isn't it cool that any of this is even an option that is available?" I look that one better
-Off cushion practice
-60 min., night: Relatively calm. Seemed to be dipping into medium strength jhana, but didn't push for it. Minimal thought removal, some positive thinking, lots of breath focus, some watching-stillness.
-60 min., afternoon: Lots of thought-removal, medium amount of breath focus
-Sometimes I think "what a drag all this reconditioning is," but then I got moments where momentum shines through, and I see how it is already working.
-There is the contrasting thought, "look at how novel all of this reconditioning is! Isn't it cool that any of this is even an option that is available?" I look that one better
-Off cushion practice
-60 min., night: Relatively calm. Seemed to be dipping into medium strength jhana, but didn't push for it. Minimal thought removal, some positive thinking, lots of breath focus, some watching-stillness.
6.26
**skipped meditation, morning**
-Off cushion: My skill on and off cushion IS improving, but it FEELS like I'm just spinning my tires. I realized the reason for this: the minute I reach a new level of automaticity of conduct, joy and clarity, my mind already is beginning to get used to it and it is becoming the new subconscious setting. So I never really get a 'break' from the feeling of work. The more I expect a 'break,' the more I procrastinate and burden myself with strategies to arouse motivation. The direct fix here is to grit my teeth, breathe in joy, and sit down on the damn cushion.
When I attempt to take a break, or reach out for the feeling of relief, the mind/body system automatically starts feeding unskillful habits again. For some reason, the feeling of work/effort provides a necessary, supporting contrast at this stage. Whatever, I gots to do what I gots to do.
-I had a talk with Richard tonight:
-I told him about having inconsistency with sitting practice due to inner resistance to it: He said that my mind is a tree, and two of the branches or fighting with each other, I can investigate this fighting process and see how there is actually one trunk to it, and a unified root system.
-This led to him talking about the importance of forgiveness in all religion and spiritual training: specifically forgiving oneself and discovering a more natural happiness in the world.
-He also said that now that I have some freedom from the hindrances, it is time to investigate the path itself... meaning to see what is skillful, what is not, both internally, and externally -- all of life.
-I got some interesting definitions from him about different 'characters' within the Buddhist cast. When I described my definition of a Bodhisattva (someone who doesn't get fully cooked so that they can still feel connection and be helpful to people), he said that is an Anagami in his "system" (he doesn't use that word btw). The Arahant is fully cooked- the reason why the Suttas say the Lay Arahant will die without ordaining is because she would be so detached from conditions that she may not even be motivated to function at basic levels of health and safety. However, the Arahant will still sometimes interact with others, and when she does, her main interest in how to preserve her own happiness, and build up the happiness of others. In other words, when she talks, she talks Dhamma/ 8folds. A step further detached is the Pratyekabuddha, who never even interacts with others. What defines a Buddha is both that the Buddha has discovered the Dhamma on her own, but also that the Buddha has the detachment of the Arahant alongside the teaching effectiveness of the Anagami/Bodhisattva.
-He also discussed a fork in the road that occurs later in the path: one either emphasizes Emptiness or Joy. For those more involved in the world, Joy is necessary (i.e. in raising kids and being married). For those who are able to spend much time in seclusion, Emptiness is an option. I didn't really understand what he was getting at though, and we agreed that this teaching is too deep and went over my head.
**skipped meditation, night**
**skipped meditation, morning**
-Off cushion: My skill on and off cushion IS improving, but it FEELS like I'm just spinning my tires. I realized the reason for this: the minute I reach a new level of automaticity of conduct, joy and clarity, my mind already is beginning to get used to it and it is becoming the new subconscious setting. So I never really get a 'break' from the feeling of work. The more I expect a 'break,' the more I procrastinate and burden myself with strategies to arouse motivation. The direct fix here is to grit my teeth, breathe in joy, and sit down on the damn cushion.
When I attempt to take a break, or reach out for the feeling of relief, the mind/body system automatically starts feeding unskillful habits again. For some reason, the feeling of work/effort provides a necessary, supporting contrast at this stage. Whatever, I gots to do what I gots to do.
-I had a talk with Richard tonight:
-I told him about having inconsistency with sitting practice due to inner resistance to it: He said that my mind is a tree, and two of the branches or fighting with each other, I can investigate this fighting process and see how there is actually one trunk to it, and a unified root system.
-This led to him talking about the importance of forgiveness in all religion and spiritual training: specifically forgiving oneself and discovering a more natural happiness in the world.
-He also said that now that I have some freedom from the hindrances, it is time to investigate the path itself... meaning to see what is skillful, what is not, both internally, and externally -- all of life.
-I got some interesting definitions from him about different 'characters' within the Buddhist cast. When I described my definition of a Bodhisattva (someone who doesn't get fully cooked so that they can still feel connection and be helpful to people), he said that is an Anagami in his "system" (he doesn't use that word btw). The Arahant is fully cooked- the reason why the Suttas say the Lay Arahant will die without ordaining is because she would be so detached from conditions that she may not even be motivated to function at basic levels of health and safety. However, the Arahant will still sometimes interact with others, and when she does, her main interest in how to preserve her own happiness, and build up the happiness of others. In other words, when she talks, she talks Dhamma/ 8folds. A step further detached is the Pratyekabuddha, who never even interacts with others. What defines a Buddha is both that the Buddha has discovered the Dhamma on her own, but also that the Buddha has the detachment of the Arahant alongside the teaching effectiveness of the Anagami/Bodhisattva.
-He also discussed a fork in the road that occurs later in the path: one either emphasizes Emptiness or Joy. For those more involved in the world, Joy is necessary (i.e. in raising kids and being married). For those who are able to spend much time in seclusion, Emptiness is an option. I didn't really understand what he was getting at though, and we agreed that this teaching is too deep and went over my head.
**skipped meditation, night**
6.30
-60 min., morning: Recieved an email marking an increase in my college loans before meditation... started having obsessing and anxiety, did crushing, gladdening, and relaxed thinking ("I definitely can afford it, I'm learning to budget, all is well"). What characterizes this good thinking is that it makes things seem less dramatic. Also weird during this meditation was the layer of cloudlike awareness and jhana that was in the background amidst all this motion in the foreground. Interesting.
-Off cushion: Good in the beginning, then got distracted by socializing
Made a late recovery to breath focus..
-60 min., night
-60 min., morning: Recieved an email marking an increase in my college loans before meditation... started having obsessing and anxiety, did crushing, gladdening, and relaxed thinking ("I definitely can afford it, I'm learning to budget, all is well"). What characterizes this good thinking is that it makes things seem less dramatic. Also weird during this meditation was the layer of cloudlike awareness and jhana that was in the background amidst all this motion in the foreground. Interesting.
-Off cushion: Good in the beginning, then got distracted by socializing
Made a late recovery to breath focus..-60 min., night
Noah:
[...]
-What if I didn't care about explaining why my practice works? Or how it relates to other people's practice? Or models? Or beliefs? What if I didn't care about reconciling what I learned from my first teacher (Ron) with what I learned from my second (Richard)? How would it feel to be permanently free of the need to explain anything? To anyone?
-What if I didn't care about explaining why my practice works? Or how it relates to other people's practice? Or models? Or beliefs? What if I didn't care about reconciling what I learned from my first teacher (Ron) with what I learned from my second (Richard)? How would it feel to be permanently free of the need to explain anything? To anyone?
Dead boring on DHO.
Noah:
One of the first things Richard told me is that Westerners suck at doing nothing, whereas Thai people are good at it. He also told me that reality is a flood. In other words, there is ample entertainment and engagement to be had, moment by moment, for the well trained mind. I hope to someday be able to sit and veg out in a carefree manner!
To quote French philosopher and mathematician Blaise Pascal: "All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone."
Being still and 'veg(ing) out in a carefree manner' is one of life's simpler pleasures
The problem with what I've been doing, in terms of obsessing, on here and elsewhere, is that I've made decisions first and then looked at my mind. What I need to do is look at my mind first, and then draw conclusions from my observations. Specifically, I need to be looking at the way my intensity of obsessing and taking views is inherently stressful.
This is going to be an "I told you so" but I've been telling you this for some time now, to the point of angering you. You need to observe first instead of manipulate. Glad to see someone else has weighed in. That person is a better teacher for you.
Please feel free to be angry with me
Chris:
Haha I'm not! When I had this insight while talking to Rd, one of the first things I thought is that this is what you've been pointing out to me for months. Others who have also suggested this type of thing to me include Bernd, Russell, and Shargrol. I will give credit where credit is due, and start 'looking' at my mental processes before making a decision about them.
This is going to be an "I told you so" but I've been telling you this for some time now, to the point of angering you. You need to observe first instead of manipulate. Glad to see someone else has weighed in. That person is a better teacher for you.
Please feel free to be angry with me
Please feel free to be angry with me
Haha I'm not! When I had this insight while talking to Rd, one of the first things I thought is that this is what you've been pointing out to me for months. Others who have also suggested this type of thing to me include Bernd, Russell, and Shargrol. I will give credit where credit is due, and start 'looking' at my mental processes before making a decision about them.
