Jim Smith:
I would like to start this thread to help me put the following concepts into a clearer understanding:
Hi Jim,
I am going to make a stab at this but keep in mind that there are many modern spiritual traditions - each with it’s own terminology and practices. Just within Buddhism you find many different schools and the various players do not necessarily agree with each other on what constitutes awakening and how it is achieved. For ex
ample, Mahasi Sayadaw and Ajahn Chah did not apparently agree on what awakening was - yet both were considered awakened within their respective traditions. And that is just within Theravada Buddhism - So... it’s complicated.
Realization vs. Nibbana: Are these the same if not how are they related? How does realization lead to nibbana?
Short answer:
They might be referring to the same thing - if not they are probably referring to a stage of the same thing - just not the same stage.
Long answer:
First, let me introduce 2 terms: non-abiding awakening (temporary experiences) and abiding awakening (permanent shifts). These terms are used by adyashanti and they are consistent with my own experience. You find the same concept in zen where satori defines something temporary and kensho refers to a permanent shift.
So when people use the term realization try to look at the context to see if they are describing something permanent or temporary. Self realization is probably describing an abiding awakening. Adyashanti defines two types of abiding awakenings. The first, he calls enlightenment and begins with the experience of ego collapsing (this is how westerners often describe it). This stage is called Unitive by Bernedette Roberts, enlightenment by Actual Freedom guy (Richard), and Anagami (Thai Forest) - that will upset some folks. It is characterized by a sense of oneness, radiance, mystical, union with god - this kind of stuff. It is not the same as Nibbana. The second type is called Not-self by both Roberts and Adyashanti, Actual Freedom by Richard (that will upset some folks) and Arahat by Thai Forest - this will upset some more folks. Some like Thusness tack on a few more levels/sub-categories but these are the two main abiding shifts. This second shift is the on going experience of Nibbana (stream entry is the first experience of nibbana - but it is temporary).
I suppose I should mention here that I don’t relate to the MCTB stages. I say this because responding here on this forum - people who don’t know me may assume I am talking about these stages. It’s not a criticism. I read a few pages from Bernedette Roberts, Adyshanti, AF, Maha Boowa, Jed Mckenna and I can relate to what they are talking about. With Mahasi and MCTB - no. Maybe it’s the language/terminology - I don’t know - but my sense is that we are not talking about the same thing - again, not a criticism, not saying it doesn’t bring about lasting beneficial changes for people. Not questioning authenticity. Anyway, this is why I am referencing adyashanti, roberts, etc and not MCTB - it’s just what I relate to.
To add to confusion - just because people use terms like “I am”, God, oneness, etc - does not necessarily mean they are talking about the first abiding stage - the unitive. It depends on their own tradition, their audience, culture, belief system, etc. You have to be able to look at these descriptions in the greater context of how they unfold over time. Also, the language more associated with the Not Self folks is often grabbed onto by people at the previous (Unitive) stage to describe their own experience - further complicating things. And even after you experience this stuff, it is still confusing - a tower of Babel.
And just because patterns appear doesn’t mean that this thing has to unfold in that particular way - it may just mean that sometimes it does.
Letting go of attachments and aversions vs. Realizing not-self: For example does looking into the 5 skandhas to see they are not-self a) lead to letting go of attachments and aversion to them producing nibbana or b) lead to realization of not-self?
I am going to present this from the perspective of the ebt’s (early buddhist texts - suttas/agamas) - to the best of my ability. I will probably upset some more folks.
Realization (at the highest level) is the functional equivalent of nibbana. Realization is referring to the fact that you have come to know something directly - while nibbana is referring to the fact that samsara (wandering-on)/mind-made-world has come to an end - two sides of the same coin. not-self - as a practice - is part of a very specific recipe/practice spelled out in the ebts - so yes to both a and b.
Samadhi vs. Realization: By "samadhi" I mean non-dual states that occur during meditation. Realization is also a non-dual state. Are they the same? No. Samadhi is a temporary experience while Realization is a permanent change. They are not experientially the same thing. Samadhi is an important part of the recipe but not the final result (flour vs bread?). Realization is something entirely different.
Does a non-dual experience in meditation, ie samadhi, lead to the non-dual experience of realization. Or does samadhi just quiet the mind so it can obtain insight that leads to realization.
Yes, the latter. Think of the mind like a giant electro magnet - like they use in scrap yards. There is all this crap (aggregates) stuck to it. If you want to get the crap to release you have to turn off the current to the magnet - the experience of samadhi is what you are aware of as the current is reduced beyond a certain threshold - so it’s not something that you ‘do’ - it’s something that you are aware of. When the current reaches zero that is when the deathless will appear (stream entry) - the magnet experiences itself for the first time free of all that crap. Then, to your surprise - but you understand why - the current switches back on, and all the crap gets sucked back up by the magnet. It’s not subtle.
Mindfulness practices vs Meditation: By mindfulness I mean things like awareness of positions and actions. In the sutras it says, paraphrasing, when a practitioner is walking he is aware I am walking, same for standing, sitting, lying down, going forwards, going backwards,etc. Is this a form of meditation that leads to realizing not-self, or is it just a way to keep the mind quiet between meditation sessions where the real work is done? Mostly the latter. It’s part of the recipe. What you are describing is usually translated as ‘clear comprehension’ where as mindfulness would apply more to meditation practice. It’s a way to train the mind to not wander off and it is also an essential quality for the practice of sila (usually translated as Virtue or Morality but personally I think Harmlessness is more accurate) and also for monks in following their code of discipline (vinaya). You have to know what you are doing when you are doing it before you can do it differently.
If it is a form of meditation, how does it work? How does it lead to insight or realization?
If you think about driving a car - first you have to know that you are driving a car and what is going on around you - that is like clear comprehension. But that is not enough - you have to know when to make corrections in steering, avoid obstacles, and keep in mind where you are trying to go - this is the role of mindfulness.
In another thread you posted a quote from Lester Levenson - the source and context may be found
here. The article describes Lesters path to awakening. At first, Lester is suicidal. But something tells him that the cause of his unhappiness comes from within and he starts investigating within himself. He feels a strong sense of desperation (compare this with the Buddhist term
samvega). He starts investigating thoughts, feelings, the nature of happiness. He becomes very sensitive to what is going on in his mind and importantly becomes actively engaged in figuring out how to release and transform these experiences - this is mindfulness at work. As he goes further he becomes happier and happier - eventually describing the pleasure as something like orgasm. His mind grows very still, powers develop, and eventually he realizes a permanent sense of release.
Compare that story with
this sutta - this is a standard recipe found in many places in the ebts. This is how traditionally these pieces fit together.
