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Morals of awareness

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Morals of awareness Kim Katami 3/9/16 9:09 AM
RE: Morals of awareness bernd the broter 3/9/16 11:38 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Kim Katami 3/9/16 11:49 AM
RE: Morals of awareness bernd the broter 3/9/16 12:42 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Kim Katami 3/9/16 1:40 PM
RE: Morals of awareness bernd the broter 3/9/16 2:24 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Kim Katami 3/9/16 2:37 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Scott Kinney 3/9/16 2:44 PM
RE: Morals of awareness bernd the broter 3/9/16 2:58 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Kim Katami 3/9/16 3:08 PM
RE: Morals of awareness bernd the broter 3/12/16 4:57 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Nicky 3/9/16 11:20 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Scott Kinney 3/9/16 12:57 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Nicky 3/9/16 1:33 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Chris M 3/9/16 5:44 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Nicky 3/9/16 11:35 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Chris M 3/10/16 3:28 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Nicky 3/12/16 6:43 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Chris M 3/13/16 10:05 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Nicky 3/14/16 1:37 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Chris M 3/14/16 3:00 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Nicky 3/14/16 2:38 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Kim Katami 3/10/16 2:09 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Chris M 3/10/16 3:54 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Kim Katami 3/10/16 4:53 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Chris M 3/10/16 5:30 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Robert 3/10/16 2:19 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Kim Katami 3/10/16 2:34 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Robert 3/11/16 2:51 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Psi 3/11/16 8:42 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Kim Katami 3/11/16 10:50 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Robert 3/11/16 12:25 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Kim Katami 3/12/16 10:57 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Robert 3/12/16 11:05 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Eva Nie 3/12/16 3:08 PM
RE: Morals of awareness CJMacie 3/15/16 6:38 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Kim Katami 3/15/16 7:31 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Psi 3/15/16 8:58 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Eva Nie 3/15/16 6:07 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Psi 3/15/16 8:02 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Kim Katami 3/16/16 3:58 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Robert 3/16/16 12:00 PM
RE: Morals of awareness -- Timus -- 3/16/16 5:31 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Eva Nie 3/16/16 8:17 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Robert 3/15/16 10:50 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Robert 3/15/16 1:23 PM
RE: Morals of awareness CJMacie 3/16/16 5:11 AM
RE: Morals of awareness CJMacie 3/13/16 9:11 PM
RE: Morals of awareness Robert 3/10/16 2:15 AM
RE: Morals of awareness neko 3/11/16 6:23 AM
RE: Morals of awareness Robert 3/13/16 2:33 PM
Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 9:09 AM
Morals of awareness
I recently came across this quote by the honoured Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche:

"If we lose nonduality, and if buddhism really puts the importance to
morality, it will become very dangerous, because then the value of a
practitioner will be judged by who is morally good or right, and this is
very dangerous. Somebody could be very good with morality, but they may
have no compassion. They may not have the understanding of the truth.
And because there is no understanding of the truth, there is no
compassion. Morality actually becomes sort of pillar of our pride and
arrogance. So the whole purpose of morality is again defeated.
Therefore, the morality of buddhism has to accompany with nonduality."
 

I would like to present a simple exercise for the reader in order for you
to discover the source of common morals and ethics of man. 

If you are not famililar with the idea of selflessness of awareness before, read this for orientation.

1. First, sit down in a good relaxed posture. Close your eyes. Take a
few deeper breaths if you feel like it. Then let the breath be on it's
own. Scan the inside of the physical body. Be alert to notice any
tentions. As you notice tensions, allow them to be released. When a
tension releases, what is found from the place of the released tension?
Look carefully to find that out... What you find is open space. Good.
Continue releasing other tensions by going through the whole body space.
No hurry, do it carefully with time and everytime a tension is released
notice that open space in the place of the former tension. As you keep
doing this for a couple of minutes the small areas of open space begins to feel like one unified
field of open space that is both in and out of the physical body.
Check if this is so. Make notice of this and marinate in that space. Rest in that with time with some
sharpness of mind so that you don't become drowsy or distracted.

2.As the open space of awareness is revealed, let's investigate it in the
context of common morals. As you go through each of these questions,
see, sense and perceive if what is suggested seems true or not. Do not
investigate these questions in your mind on the level of thought.
Rather, see if these questions can be answered on the level of direct
experience, on the level of open and clear awareness.

  • Honesty. If open awareness could think, talk and act, would it act honestly or
    dishonestly? Would it deceive others? How does the idea of dishonesty
    resonate in the space of open awareness? Does it match with it? See
    which idea is in line with the morals of open awareness itself.
  • Non-violence. If open awareness could think, talk and act, would it act non-violently or
    violently? Would it harm oneself or others in any way? If it had one,
    would it ever raise it's fist to hurt others from the motive of
    violence? Would it kill? Does the idea of self-centered violence match
    with open awareness? See which idea is in line with the morals of open
    awareness itself.
  • Kindness. If open awareness could think, talk and act, would it act kindly or
    unkindly? Would it offer kindness to others when it is needed? See which
    idea is in line with the morals of open awareness itself.
  • Greed. If open awareness could think, talk and act, would it act from greed or 
    generosity? If it could act, would it try to get more, possibly with the
    expense of others? Or would it generously give to those who are in need
    without holding back? See which idea is in line with the morals of open
    awareness
    itself.

Through this experiment it becomes clear that awareness itself, which is
without a self and is nondual, is the source of common morals. This
experiment shows you within your own mind that morals and nonduality are
inseparable already. Through this experiment you
probably discovered that throughout your life, you've had the same
moral values as awareness does, even though you might not have been able
to act according to them because of your mental and emotional
confusion. 

There you have it. Awake awareness is where the common morals originate from
and why they are emphasized by most spiritual and religious traditions.
However, how morals are taught, should be direct in helping people to
understand the origin of it. Morals are not something from "outside" of
us. In essence, morals are not something that we could learn or have to
carry with us, although it can be helpful to remind oneself of one's
morals when life gets rough. Rather, morals are something that we are
already, beneath all the conditioned deluded dualistic mess that has
been piled into our minds and carved into our subtle nervous system.

Thank you for reading,

- Baba Kim Katami

This text can also be found from my blog.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 11:38 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
If your favourite 20-th century dictator with an inclination to genocide tries this experiment, what answers does he or she get?

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 11:49 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
bernd the broter:
If your favourite 20-th century dictator with an inclination to genocide tries this experiment, what answers does he or she get?

Haha, a good one. A mass-murdering dictator might have hard time with the first step and never even get to the second one.

The awake awareness needs to be found carefully, which requires a couple of things, like relaxation and attentiveness to be able to "marinate in that".

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 12:42 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
bernd the broter:
If your favourite 20-th century dictator with an inclination to genocide tries this experiment, what answers does he or she get?

Haha, a good one. A mass-murdering dictator might have hard time with the first step and never even get to the second one.
Why?

The awake awareness needs to be found carefully, which requires a couple of things, like relaxation and attentiveness to be able to "marinate in that".
Mass murdering dictators' (or your garden variety's psychopaths') nervous systems have lost the skill to relax and be attentive?

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 12:57 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Morals of awareness
  • Non-violence. If open awareness could think, talk and act, would it act non-violently or
    violently? Would it harm oneself or others in any way? If it had one,
    would it ever raise it's fist to hurt others from the motive of
    violence? Would it kill? Does the idea of self-centered violence match
    with open awareness? See which idea is in line with the morals of open
    awareness itself.


What's your working definition of "violence"?

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 1:33 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Morals of awareness
I recently came across this quote by the honoured Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche:

"If we lose nonduality, and if buddhism really puts the importance to
morality, it will become very dangerous, because then the value of a
practitioner will be judged by who is morally good or right, and this is
very dangerous. Somebody could be very good with morality, but they may
have no compassion. They may not have the understanding of the truth.
And because there is no understanding of the truth, there is no
compassion. Morality actually becomes sort of pillar of our pride and
arrogance. So the whole purpose of morality is again defeated.
Therefore, the morality of buddhism has to accompany with nonduality."
 



Imo, the guru should have said: 

Therefore, the non-duality of buddhism has to accompany with morality.

If the objects of compassion don't become moral (harmless), what is the point of compassion? 

It will end up like Protestant Christianity, offering eternal life to immoral people for simply worshipping the guru. 

The Buddha said: "If a bhikkhu should wish deliverance of mind...let him fulfill the precepts"

emoticon

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 1:40 PM as a reply to bernd the broter.
bernd the broter:
Kim Katami:
bernd the broter:
If your favourite 20-th century dictator with an inclination to genocide tries this experiment, what answers does he or she get?

Haha, a good one. A mass-murdering dictator might have hard time with the first step and never even get to the second one.
Why?

The awake awareness needs to be found carefully, which requires a couple of things, like relaxation and attentiveness to be able to "marinate in that".
Mass murdering dictators' (or your garden variety's psychopaths') nervous systems have lost the skill to relax and be attentive?

I'd assume a purposeful mass murderer is so entangled in his or her conditioned mind that it would probably be difficult for such a person to find a way out of his conditioned worldview to a full free fall of awake awareness, without the colouring of apparent and hidden motives.

Scott Kinney:

What's your working definition of "violence"?

Purposefully willing harm to oneself or others. Is this easy to understand?
Nicky:


Imo, the guru should have said: 

Therefore, the non-duality of buddhism has to accompany with morality.

If the objects of compassion don't become moral (harmless), what is the point of compassion? 

It will end up like Protestant Christianity, offering eternal life to immoral people for simply worshipping the guru. 

The Buddha said: "If a bhikkhu should wish deliverance of mind...let him fulfill the precepts"

emoticon

When gurus of many sorts have done harm to others in different ways, to me it only shows that their training hasn't progressed far enough, that is, they haven't recognised themselves as awake awareness thoroughly enough. Buddha's quote is right on.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 2:24 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

I'd assume a purposeful mass murderer is so entangled in his or her conditioned mind that it would probably be difficult for such a person to find a way out of his conditioned worldview to a full free fall of awake awareness, without the colouring of apparent and hidden motives.
Do you realise that this is basically a cyclic argument?

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 2:37 PM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Huh Bernd?

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 2:44 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Scott Kinney:
What's your working definition of "violence"?

Purposefully willing harm to oneself or others. Is this easy to understand?


I think that's fair. Thanks.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 2:58 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

I'd assume a purposeful mass murderer is so entangled in his or her conditioned mind that it would probably be difficult for such a person to find a way out of his conditioned worldview to a full free fall of awake awareness, without the colouring of apparent and hidden motives.
If I say "A purposeful mass murderer does this exercise and then wants to kill all members x of Group G", then you may want to reply "yeah, that's because he/she is so entangled in their conditioned mind that they can't find a way out of their conditioned worldview, so their answers are coloured by apparent and hidden motives"

Then I ask "but maybe the answers are really coming from their awake awareness?"

And then you say "No, because if they were coming from their awake awareness, then they would not give these answers which they only do because they are entangled in their conditioned worldview."

That's pretty cyclic I guess.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 3:08 PM as a reply to bernd the broter.
I am not following you. What is the problem Bernd?

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 5:44 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Morals of awareness
I recently came across this quote by the honoured Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche:

"If we lose nonduality, and if buddhism really puts the importance to
morality, it will become very dangerous, because then the value of a
practitioner will be judged by who is morally good or right, and this is
very dangerous. Somebody could be very good with morality, but they may
have no compassion. ..."


Buddhism has always placed importance on morality. Just look at the eight-fold path, where ethics/morality is evident in all of its factors.  So what is DKR talking about? He is creating a false dichotomy here; making out that one has to be exclusive of the other. The irony is, he is the one creating a duality.

This is not the first time I've noticed statements DKR has made, which I consider to be quite ignorant and superficial. I certainly wouldn't put him in my "honoured" category.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 11:20 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
When gurus of many sorts have done harm to others in different ways, to me it only shows that their training hasn't progressed far enough, that is, they haven't recognised themselves as awake awareness thoroughly enough. Buddha's quote is right on.

I was being naughty and did not expect you to agree with me. 

However, the guru was correct in saying: "the morality of buddhism has to accompany with non-duality"

Both statements are correct because we all know that morality in itself does not provide liberation. 

Thus the Buddha taught the fetter of sīlabbata-parāmāsa. 

emoticon

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/9/16 11:35 PM as a reply to Chris M.
Chris M:
Buddhism has always placed importance on morality. Just look at the eight-fold path, where ethics & morality is evident in all of its factors.  So what is DKR talking about? He is creating a false dichotomy here; making out that one has to be exclusive of the other. The irony is, he is the one creating a duality. 


I guess the Rinpoche's statements may be 'culture-based' because all societies that are strongly religious tend to have judgmental moralty since, generally, many more people can follow morality than become enlightened. Once people have the view that morality protects their family & society, they can become aggressively moral. 

For example, there used to be the American phrase: "the moral majority".
The Moral Majority was a prominent American political organization associated with the Christian right and Republican Party. It was founded in 1979 by Baptist minister Jerry Falwell and associates, and dissolved in the late 1980s.

In the New Testament, many of the rantings of St Paul (to Jews & Jewish converts living in the Roman Empire) were about this matter; where St Paul declared one is saved by faith/grace and not by the moral law (Torah). However, Paul did conclude the moral law must be upheld. 

Regards emoticon

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/10/16 2:15 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Doesn't all this have to do with a "someone"? Nobody loses nonduality. Somebody having nonduality is a delusion already. A state that seemingly plays for a while and then dissipates. A state within which a lot of apparent doing (and non-doing for that matter) and recognizing seems to take place...

edit:

Not saying that an apparent someone who talks in relative terms has a hang-up with a relative world view necessarily though. Or with an absolute view which is still just a viewpoint of the mind.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/10/16 2:09 AM as a reply to Chris M.
Chris M
Buddhism has always placed importance on morality. Just look at the eight-fold path, where ethics/morality is evident in all of its factors.  So what is DKR talking about? He is creating a false dichotomy here; making out that one has to be exclusive of the other. The irony is, he is the one creating a duality.

This is not the first time I've noticed statements DKR has made, which I consider to be quite ignorant and superficial. I certainly wouldn't put him in my "honoured" category.

I don't follow DKR's work but based on couple of other things I've heard him say, it seems that he tries to shake things up a little bit. Which I think is great.

I think he is talking of the present situation of buddhism, not the content or history of buddhism. He makes his point of morality in relation to nonduality from there. Which I think is not a false dichotomy but a real one.

Actually, the reason why I put "honoured" there is that buddhists feelings wouldn't get hurt as there is subtle criticism in my text.

Nicky
Kim KatamiWhen
gurus of many sorts have done harm to others in different ways, to me it
only shows that their training hasn't progressed far enough, that is,
they haven't recognised themselves as awake awareness thoroughly enough.
Buddha's quote is right on.

I was being naughty and did not expect you to agree with me. 

However, the guru was correct in saying: "the morality of buddhism has to accompany with non-duality"

Both statements are correct because we all know that morality in itself does not provide liberation. 

Thus the Buddha taught the fetter of sīlabbata-parāmāsa. 

emoticon

It seems being non-native English speaker has good sides as well, through not being able to understand some of the naughtiness.

What I was subtly criticising in my text was that why not teach in a way which helps people discover the inseparability of morality and nonduality in the first place.

I wonder how this is done in theravada: 1. morality 2. wisdom and 3. concentration. How in practice are meditation and morality connected together?

Has anyone ever seen this kind of direct instruction that I gave above? I am not aware if it is taught like this in some lineages or by some teachers but I'd like to know if it is.

RobertDoesn't all this have to do with a
"someone"? Nobody loses nonduality. Somebody having nonduality is a
delusion already.
A state that seemingly plays for a while and then
dissipates. A state within which a lot of apparent doing (and non-doing
for that matter) and recognizing seems to take place...

edit: Not saying that an apparent someone who talks in relative terms has a
hang-up with a relative world view though. Or with an absolute view
which is still just a viewpoint of the mind.

I don't know if your post was directed to me Robert but no it is not, the practice I explained, concerned with someone/based on a self. It is a wonderful little experiment which hits right at the touching surface of the absolute and relative sides of us. Isn't it? Did someone actually try it out?






RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/10/16 3:28 AM as a reply to Nicky.
Nicky:
Chris M:
Buddhism has always placed importance on morality. Just look at the eight-fold path, where ethics & morality is evident in all of its factors.  So what is DKR talking about? He is creating a false dichotomy here; making out that one has to be exclusive of the other. The irony is, he is the one creating a duality. 


I guess the Rinpoche's statements may be 'culture-based' because all societies that are strongly religious tend to have judgmental moralty since, generally, many more people can follow morality than become enlightened. Once people have the view that morality protects their family & society, they can become aggressively moral. 

For example, there used to be the American phrase: "the moral majority".
The Moral Majority was a prominent American political organization associated with the Christian right and Republican Party. It was founded in 1979 by Baptist minister Jerry Falwell and associates, and dissolved in the late 1980s.

In the New Testament, many of the rantings of St Paul (to Jews & Jewish converts living in the Roman Empire) were about this matter; where St Paul declared one is saved by faith/grace and not by the moral law (Torah). However, Paul did conclude the moral law must be upheld. 

Regards emoticon


The Moral Majority may have dissolved in the late 80s, but unfortunately it is alive and well and has just morphed into other forms. Trump and Cruz are vying for their votes as we speak.

Yes, I get where purely morality driven movements end up, and I thought this was evident in my post, so I am a little intrigued why you posted what you did re the Moral Majority, etc. Wisdom and morality are always yoked is/was my point. We refine our view (wisdom) as we progress and we get a more nuanced understanding of morality as we progress also, but they remain interdependent. As you've mentioned sīlabbata-parāmāsa already, then look at the next two fetters for the next two paths. These are ethical concerns.

Cheers

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/10/16 3:54 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Chris M
Buddhism has always placed importance on morality. Just look at the eight-fold path, where ethics/morality is evident in all of its factors.  So what is DKR talking about? He is creating a false dichotomy here; making out that one has to be exclusive of the other. The irony is, he is the one creating a duality.

This is not the first time I've noticed statements DKR has made, which I consider to be quite ignorant and superficial. I certainly wouldn't put him in my "honoured" category.

I don't follow DKR's work but based on couple of other things I've heard him say, it seems that he tries to shake things up a little bit. Which I think is great.

I think he is talking of the present situation of buddhism, not the content or history of buddhism. He makes his point of morality in relation to nonduality from there. Which I think is not a false dichotomy but a real one.

Actually, the reason why I put "honoured" there is that buddhists feelings wouldn't get hurt as there is subtle criticism in my text.


I am puzzled why you would post this particular message from DKR warning of the pitfalls of not cultivating wisdom, here on the Dharma Overground. Wisdom and Meditation get plenty of cultivation here, it is usually Ethics/Morality that is the poor cousin, so I think there is little risk of participants here becoming overly moralistic. Perhaps you disagree?

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/10/16 4:53 AM as a reply to Chris M.
Chris M:


I am puzzled why you would post this particular message from DKR warning of the pitfalls of not cultivating wisdom, here on the Dharma Overground. Wisdom and Meditation get plenty of cultivation here, it is usually Ethics/Morality that is the poor cousin, so I think there is little risk of participants here becoming overly moralistic. Perhaps you disagree?

Why puzzled? I posted it because it is a matter of the present buddhist/spiritual culture, perhaps not DhO but in general.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/10/16 2:19 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

RobertDoesn't all this have to do with a
"someone"? Nobody loses nonduality. Somebody having nonduality is a
delusion already.
A state that seemingly plays for a while and then
dissipates. A state within which a lot of apparent doing (and non-doing
for that matter) and recognizing seems to take place...

edit: Not saying that an apparent someone who talks in relative terms has a
hang-up with a relative world view though. Or with an absolute view
which is still just a viewpoint of the mind.

I don't know if your post was directed to me Robert but no it is not, the practice I explained, concerned with someone/based on a self. It is a wonderful little experiment which hits right at the touching surface of the absolute and relative sides of us. Isn't it? Did someone actually try it out?

Yeah partially it was. Obviously that is a sort of a teaching from someone and directed to someone. Even if it seems to talk of no-one. It's a good dream you've got going there though, I can imagine. I don't refer to that one post but more in general. That's the impression at the moment from what I've read. A general picture of what's going on; someone thinking they've achieved something, now calling themselves "Baba" and guiding other people to that same place/level within a dream. A dream of "awareness". Ultimately all that doesn't really matter and this isn't meant as criticism. Because it couldn't be otherwise.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/10/16 2:34 PM as a reply to Robert.
Robert:
Kim Katami:

RobertDoesn't all this have to do with a
"someone"? Nobody loses nonduality. Somebody having nonduality is a delusion already.
A state that seemingly plays for a while and then dissipates. A state within which a lot of apparent doing (and non-doing for that matter) and recognizing seems to take place...

edit: Not saying that an apparent someone who talks in relative terms has a hang-up with a relative world view though. Or with an absolute view which is still just a viewpoint of the mind.

I don't know if your post was directed to me Robert but no it is not, the practice I explained, concerned with someone/based on a self. It is a wonderful little experiment which hits right at the touching surface of the absolute and relative sides of us. Isn't it? Did someone actually try it out?

Yeah partially it was. Obviously that is a sort of a teaching from someone and directed to someone. Even if it seems to talk of no-one. It's a good dream you've got going there though, I can imagine. I don't refer to that one post but more in general. That's the impression at the moment from what I've read. A general picture of what's going on; someone thinking they've achieved something, now calling themselves "Baba" and guiding other people to that same place/level within a dream. A dream of "awareness". Ultimately all that doesn't really matter and this isn't meant as criticism. Because it couldn't be otherwise.

Speaking of pictures of what is going on, this is just the type of message that could be expected from you. teehee* Great!

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/10/16 5:30 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Chris M:


I am puzzled why you would post this particular message from DKR warning of the pitfalls of not cultivating wisdom, here on the Dharma Overground. Wisdom and Meditation get plenty of cultivation here, it is usually Ethics/Morality that is the poor cousin, so I think there is little risk of participants here becoming overly moralistic. Perhaps you disagree?

Why puzzled? I posted it because it is a matter of the present buddhist/spiritual culture, perhaps not DhO but in general.

Could you provide some examples, particularly in the West, where this is an issue?

Thanks

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/11/16 2:51 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:


Speaking of pictures of what is going on, this is just the type of message that could be expected from you. teehee* Great!

That's the apparent dream. And even that seeming conclusion about a dream is a mere thought. What is a thought? Thought can't answer it and beyond the world of thought that question doesn't really even exist as anything. Not even as awareness actually. This isn't to say that there is nothing. Nothing too is just another concept. But nothing wrong with concepts and the apparent use of them.

This isn't a reply to anyone in particular necessarily. Just stuff seemingly getting written.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/11/16 6:23 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
This exercise hinges on a process of personification of the "open space of awareness" which seems misleading conceptually and experientially to me. It is likely that what you call "open space of awareness" is (very) different from what I call that.

(I am curious, is this practice an invention of yours, or is it associated with any established teacher or tradition?)

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/11/16 8:42 AM as a reply to Robert.
Robert:
Kim Katami:


Speaking of pictures of what is going on, this is just the type of message that could be expected from you. teehee* Great!

That's the apparent dream. And even that seeming conclusion about a dream is a mere thought. What is a thought? Thought can't answer it and beyond the world of thought that question doesn't really even exist as anything. Not even as awareness actually. This isn't to say that there is nothing. Nothing too is just another concept. But nothing wrong with concepts and the apparent use of them.

This isn't a reply to anyone in particular necessarily. Just stuff seemingly getting written.

Seems like I've been here before.

Seems so familiar.

Seems like I'm slipping

into a dream within a dream.

Tool

Psi

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/11/16 10:50 AM as a reply to Robert.
Robert:

Yeah partially it was. Obviously that is a sort of a teaching from someone and directed to someone. Even if it seems to talk of no-one. It's a good dream you've got going there though, I can imagine. I don't refer to that one post but more in general. That's the impression at the moment from what I've read. A general picture of what's going on; someone thinking they've achieved something, now calling themselves "Baba" and guiding other people to that same place/level within a dream. A dream of "awareness". Ultimately all that doesn't really matter and this isn't meant as criticism. Because it couldn't be otherwise.

What I was referring to with my previous comment about pictures we have and impressions we get, is that, there are limits with what mere textual expression transmits and further how it is understood within the limits set by our minds.

I was talking to a friend, a well experienced fellow, from this forum about the matter of mapping the spiritual attainments of other people which inevitably affects the persons understanding of the topic. My friend's method for doing this consists of verbal communication and actually knowing the concerned person. That is one way, of course, and a good one between good friends, a teacher and student but my take on this is that when someone talks about "awareness" or whatever, there is a better and more direct way to know what this person is talking about. I am referring to the bhumi mapping system. Reading Robert's impression based on my posts made me think of this.
neko:
This exercise hinges on a process of personification of the "open space of awareness" which seems misleading
conceptually and experientially to me. It is likely that what you call "open space of awareness" is (very) different from what I call that.

(I am curious, is this practice an invention of yours, or is it associated with any established teacher or tradition?)

I'm not exactly sure what "hinges" means, what is the nuance of this expression, but if we talk about personifying the open space of awareness, we have to be careful with that when conducting this experiment.

It is experiential comparison, seeing how our morals might or might not relate with boundless awareness. It is about asking questions, investigating, not about assuming but studying.

I was talking to another friend of mine with a long orthodox dzogchen-background who said he's always felt like that about morals and their origin.

I've never seen anyone suggesting the same experiment but I wouldn't be surprised if others use this too. To answer your question, Neko, nobody has taught me this, it just crossed my mind.

To me it never made sense that morals are superficial, something added or carried around.

Neko wrote
: It is likely that what you call "open space of awareness" is (very) different from what I call that.

Yes, it is possible. May I suggest something different which could possibly give us both a new perspective into what we are talking about? I realise that people who see my posts merely as self-promotion might take a flip again but here we go... But see this video, my "open space of awareness" and check if it has relevance with what I mean by this term. See it once or more times for tuning up, for seeing into my state of awareness. For this approach to work, you have to experience my state in your own body and mind, otherwise you cannot know what I mean with "open awareness".

The reason why I say above that possibly "both" of us could get a new perspective into this matter, is because I'd like to suggest you to post a similar film of yourself looking at the camera for 1-2 minutes. Then I could compare your open awareness with mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_VdExEya7k


Cheerio,

Baba

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/11/16 12:25 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

The reason why I say above that possibly "both" of us could get a new perspective into this matter, is because I'd like to suggest you to post a similar film of yourself looking at the camera for 1-2 minutes. Then I could compare your open awareness with mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_VdExEya7k


Cheerio,

Baba

Hahaha! I'm not in the eight bhumi nor am I enlightened... And I'm not all "holy and pure", nor would I want to be, so I can express my opinion without guilt or shame, which is that this is absolute horseshit. Thanks for the laugh though.

Oh and I understand that post wasn't meant for me but I don't care. Too good to pass.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/12/16 10:57 AM as a reply to Robert.
Wonderful Robert. Have a nice day.

I am actually surprised how little pragmatism there is here on pragmatic dharma forum, in contra to all the bitching.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/12/16 11:05 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Wonderful Robert. Have a nice day.
Thanks! You too.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/12/16 3:08 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Wonderful Robert. Have a nice day.

I am actually surprised how little pragmatism there is here on pragmatic dharma forum, in contra to all the bitching.

Maybe from your perspective that only your method is pragmatic and since many here do not like to listen to your constant advertising for your website business, it certainly may not be as pragmatic as you would like for the furthering of your website business.  On that point, you would be correct.
-Eva

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/12/16 4:57 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
I am not following you. What is the problem Bernd?
Simple. Is there any way to convince you that a mass murderer could do the experiment, successfully get to awareness, and then decide to kill group X, because awareness tells them to do so?

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/12/16 6:43 PM as a reply to Chris M.
Chris M :
Wisdom and morality are always yoked is/was my point. 

Wisdom & morality are not always yoked. Refer to MN 117, which states there are two kinds of right view: (1) a right view that sides with moralty but excludes wisdom; and (2) a right view based in wisdom. Thus the Buddha taught the fetter of sīlabbata-parāmāsa, which includes clinging to morals. 

In the old scriptures, the Buddha did not teach transcendant wisdom to all people. Many of the suttas are only about morality. 

emoticon

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/13/16 9:11 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
re: Kim Katami (3/10/16 2:09 AM as a reply to Chris M)

"What I was subtly criticising in my text was that why not teach in a way which helps people discover the inseparability of morality and  nonduality in the first place."

What is "nonduality" here? You've used the term before (Burning karma for others: "Here karma refers to
charge of
dualistic energy.") where it's similarly cryptic, unexplained. Or is that just trying to mimic a theme that's often used in DhO?

A teaching from the Buddha (according to the Pali Canon) advises that, since all beings simply seek their own happiness, the skillfull course of action/intention (kamma) is to avoid actions make others unhappy, as they will relentlessly resist. That then implies intending good-will / benevolence (metta) towards all beings. This is the pragmatic basis of morality (sila).

Metta
(and two other brahmavihara-s: compassion (karuna) and sympathetic joy (mudita)) are inherently "dualistic", in the sense that they arise in an individual as distinct from and with reference to others. In fact, that's why the 1st three of these – goodwill, compassion, sympathetic joy – can NOT reach the profound quanimity of 4th jhana concentration, where all reactivity – to pleasant/unpleasant, pleasure/pain – is transcended. The 4th brahmavihara (upkkha) is in fact "equanimity", in realizing that it's impossible to directly enforce anything on others, to change their kamma (intentions and actions) which belongs only to them. (This analysis also points out a problem with the thesis in Burning karma for others.)

"I wonder how this is done in theravada: 1. morality 2. wisdom and 3. concentration. How in practice are meditation and morality connected together?"


The usual order (and beyond just Theravada) is 1) morality (sila), 2) concentration (samadhi), and 3) wisdom / insight (pannya), though the relationships between them are not strictly sequential. The second two comprise "meditation". Morality, expressed as avoiding unwholesome actions in the worldly context (i.e. with reference to others), is pre-requisite to the other two: deep concentration and insight (which necessarily work together) is impossible when there is guilt or remorse over harmful actions one does/has done. Your thesis, which rather glibly associates your brand of "awake awareness" with wisdom/insight and this as the ground of morality, has it backwards.

"Has anyone ever seen this kind of direct instruction that I gave above? I am not aware if it is taught like this in some lineages or by some teachers but I'd like to know if it is."


No, for the simple reason that it's rather inane -- the usual self-promotional sort of post you present here. And similarly the repeated statements or implications that what you teach is new or unique, trying to enhance the spiritual authority ("big daddy" baba) image you so cherish, but is s/w out-of-place here in DhO.

(3/10/164:53 AM as a reply to Chris M. )
"I posted it because it is a matter of the present buddhist/spiritual culture, perhaps not DhO but in general."

So you're enlightening DhO here (again)? You might read that Than-Geoff book (Buddhist Romanticism) as an example of using historical and logical analysis to substantively demonstrate (perhaps in your sense, "prove") interpretations, assertions, or even accomplishments. Rather than just self-promotional talking-points.

(20160313 Edited syntax and spelling)

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/13/16 2:33 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
This kinda has to do with the thread. Pointers of Huang Po. I have no affiliation with the reader.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcIQD1KUPUk

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/13/16 10:05 PM as a reply to Nicky.
Nicky:
Chris M :
Wisdom and morality are always yoked is/was my point. 

Wisdom & morality are not always yoked. Refer to MN 117, which states there are two kinds of right view: (1) a right view that sides with moralty but excludes wisdom; and (2) a right view based in wisdom. Thus the Buddha taught the fetter of sīlabbata-parāmāsa, which includes clinging to morals. 

In the old scriptures, the Buddha did not teach transcendant wisdom to all people. Many of the suttas are only about morality. 

emoticon

Nicky,

Nowhere in the Mahācattārīsaka Sutta does it say wisdom is not employed. What you are confusing is Mundane Right View and Supramundane Right View. At a particular stage of development in the Dhamma, having a view in accordance with kamma and merit (Mundane Right View) is skillful and wise when developing the path. There is still the development of wisdom, because clearly it is not just ethics being cultivated. When one has developed the path and broken through to the Dhamma, Supramundane Right View arises and is further cultivated. This is the culmination of wisdom as a factor, but it doesn't mean that one has not employed and cultivated wisdom (as per the Eight-fold Path) prior to it. It's about stages of development, which is what I refferd to in my above post - wisdom is refined and ethics are refined as one progresses.

"And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path... This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma." SN 35.145

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/14/16 1:37 AM as a reply to Chris M.
Chris M:



There is mundane 'wisdom' about what is good & there is supramundane wisdom about liberation thru anatta.

Mundane 'wisdom' is not transcendental wisdom (panna).

No amount of merit making can ever lead to entering the noble path. 

Only right view of non-clinging & anatta enters the noble path.

That is why merit makers from Jainism & other religions do not enter the noble path. 

If the mudane right view is defiled or polluted with effuents (asava) & clinging (upadi), how can that be developing the noble path? 

Therefore, as I originally explained, lay people in Asian Buddhist countries are generally only taught morality (if even that). 

That is why in Asian countries, when misfortune happens, such as when a child is sexually abused, people say that is the victims karma from a past life. Due to their indoctrination about karma & rebirth, they have no real wisdom about real causes & conditions. Their morality can be indifferent, judgmental & vindictive beause they have no wisdom & no understanding of causality & anatta


 emoticon

And what is the right view with effluents (asava), siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions (upadi)? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously born beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the others after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions."

And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment [panna; wisdom], the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

MN 117

Nothing about 'karma' written below:

"And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment.

SN 48.10

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/14/16 3:00 AM as a reply to Nicky.
Nicky:
Chris M:



There is mundane 'wisdom' about what is good & there is supramundane wisdom about liberation thru anatta.

Mundane 'wisdom' is not transcendental wisdom (panna).

No amount of merit making can ever lead to entering the noble path. 

Only right view of non-clinging & anatta enters the noble path.

That is why merit makers from Jainism & other religions do not enter the noble path. 

If the mudane right view is defiled or polluted with effuents (asava) & clinging (upadi), how can that be developing the noble path? 

Therefore, as I originally explained, lay people in Asian Buddhist countries are generally only taught morality (if even that). 

That is why in Asian countries, when misfortune happens, such as when a child is sexually abused, people say that is the victims karma from a past life. Due to their indoctrination about karma & rebirth, they have no real wisdom about real causes & conditions. Their morality can be indifferent, judgmental & vindictive beause they have no wisdom & no understanding of causality & anatta


 emoticon

And what is the right view with effluents (asava), siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions (upadi)? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously born beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the others after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions."

And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment [panna; wisdom], the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

MN 117

Nothing about 'karma' written below:

"And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment.

SN 48.10

You still miss the salient point. Whether it is Mundane Right View it is still defined as Right View and this is the ground-level wisdom that needs to be cultivated before the culmination of Wisdom as a factor. The fact that Mundane Right View is defined in this sutta (as is all the other path factors) suggests that it is not just a focus purely on Ethics – action, speech & livelihood. If it is just Ethics being taught/practiced (as in your stereotyped Asian person), than it doesn’t even qualify as the Mundane Eight-fold Path. Just to clarify, we all practice/cultivate the eight-fold path until Arahantship, when the Path then has ten factors with the addition of Right Knowledge and Right Liberation.

No one is arguing that it is not wisdom/insight into anatta/sunnata that ultimately liberates, so I’m not sure why you feel the need to keep making this point.

Cheers

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/14/16 2:38 PM as a reply to Chris M.
Chris M:
You still miss the salient point. Whether it is Mundane Right View it is still defined as Right View and this is the ground-level wisdom that needs to be cultivated before the culmination of Wisdom as a factor. The fact that Mundane Right View is defined in this sutta (as is all the other path factors) suggests that it is not just a focus purely on Ethics – action, speech & livelihood. If it is just Ethics being taught/practiced (as in your stereotyped Asian person), than it doesn’t even qualify as the Mundane Eight-fold Path. Just to clarify, we all practice/cultivate the eight-fold path until Arahantship, when the Path then has ten factors with the addition of Right Knowledge and Right Liberation.

No one is arguing that it is not wisdom/insight into anatta/sunnata that ultimately liberates, so I’m not sure why you feel the need to keep making this point.

Cheers

I do not miss any point. I have read enough of your views here to sense your mind is attached to the idea of "rebirth" (aka reinkarmation).

The mundane view does not need to be cultivated to penetrate the supramundane right view of non-clinging, impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self. I advised already no amount of merit making can lead to entering the path. 

This is why many monks who have practised 227 precepts for 5, 10, 20 & 40 years fail to enter the noble path. 

Your insistence upon this is a fetter, what the Buddha called sīlabbata-parāmāsa. 

The mundane right view is explicitly defined as not being part of the noble path. 

The mundane right view only has to be recognised but it does not have to be 'cultvated'. 

For example, the mundane right view conventionally recognises there is mother & father (benefactors). 

But the supramundane teachings (such as in the Dhammapada) state to: "kill the mother & father". 

When speaking in public, in a fitting ocassion, an arahant would acknowledge gratitude to their "mother & father". 

But, in the mind, the arahant discerms only elements (dhatu). The arahant does not believe in "my mother" & "my father". 

Regardless, the understanding of "mother" & "father", be it personal or impersonal, does not end suffering & bring Nibbana. 

Not one of the knowledges in the mundane right view can extinguish dukkha. This is why they are not noble right view. 

You are wrong in claiming we are all practising the noble path. Those that believe in "rebirth" are not practising the noble path. Instead, noble minds simply see the five aggregrates are impermanent & subjet to vanish. 

Only minds with non-clinging & emptiness are practising the noble path. This is what MN 117 literally & explicity states. 

Regards emoticon

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/15/16 6:38 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
re: Kim Katami (3/11/16 10:50 AM as a reply to Robert)

"My friend's method for doing this consists of verbal communication and actually knowing the concerned person. That is one way, of course, and a good one between good friends, a teacher and student but my take on this is that when someone talks about "awareness" or whatever, there is a better and more direct way to know what this person is talking about. I am referring to the bhumi mapping system."

Your friend's method
is close to the Buddha's method (as per the Pali Canon) – with not just verbal communication, but observation of all modes of behavior, and over an extended period of time. The "supra-normal" powers that were possible, but not guaranteed, by advancedc oncentration training, included being able to see aspects of others' mental workings, but that's not fully experiencing their experience. It's more like being able to sense what someone is likely to be about to do; easier to understand, perhaps, in observing the behavior of a pet, a cat or dog, and knowing their patterns and the clues that reveal them. That's also an element in magic practice – knowing how to manipulate others' perception. The Buddha had such powers, but cautioned his followers against overly indulging in that kind of practice, as a sideshow to the central task of overcoming suffering. Much of the sutta material narrating the Buddha exercising such powers in miraculous ways was demonstrably later extensions to the texts when his person was being mythologized.

Your take on this is a view, apparently driven not only by promotional self-interest, but also by some degree of insecurity – needing to "prove" it to others is a sure sign of that.

"I realise that people who see my posts merely as self-promotion might take a flip again but here we go... But see this video, my "open space of awareness" and check if it has relevance with what I mean by this term. See it once or more times for tuning up, for seeing into my state of awareness. For this approach to work, you have to experience my state in your own body and mind, otherwise you cannot know what I mean with "open awareness"."

It's impossible to fully, phenomenologically experience another's experience. Imagining such is sheer delusion, as if supposing some sort of divine or "saintly" omniscience. Even the Buddha, in the "early" recorded versions of his teachings (prior to later mythologizing overlays), never made such claims; rather that he (as the tathagata) could know absolutely (only) what his own mind was perceiving and doing with it.

Your video portraits provide no solid proof. Anyone with a talent for concentration, or a trained skill in it (e.g. from meditation practice) can maintain that kind of sustained visage. Comparable before-after images like yours I could replicate using patients before and after acupuncture treatments – relaxing the facial muscles, softening the features and the eyes. And, like you do, with carefully selected subjects. "Testimonials", including things like that, are invariably driven by ulterior motives.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/15/16 7:31 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:
re: Kim Katami (3/11/16 10:50 AM as a reply to Robert)

Your video portraits provide no solid proof. Anyone with a talent for concentration, or a trained skill in it (e.g. from meditation practice) can maintain that kind of sustained visage. Comparable before-after images like yours I could replicate using patients before and after acupuncture treatments – relaxing the facial muscles, softening the features and the eyes. And, like you do, with carefully selected subjects. "Testimonials", including things like that, are invariably driven by ulterior motives.

Ok. Film a video of yourself and we'll see.

I'd like to invite anyone to film them sitting in front of camera doing nothing, just being aware. To me this constant pushing and pulling on the level of mere word, is boring and useless. Let's try something new, folks.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/15/16 8:58 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Chris J Macie:
re: Kim Katami (3/11/16 10:50 AM as a reply to Robert)

Your video portraits provide no solid proof. Anyone with a talent for concentration, or a trained skill in it (e.g. from meditation practice) can maintain that kind of sustained visage. Comparable before-after images like yours I could replicate using patients before and after acupuncture treatments – relaxing the facial muscles, softening the features and the eyes. And, like you do, with carefully selected subjects. "Testimonials", including things like that, are invariably driven by ulterior motives.

Ok. Film a video of yourself and we'll see.

I'd like to invite anyone to film them sitting in front of camera doing nothing, just being aware. To me this constant pushing and pulling on the level of mere word, is boring and useless. Let's try something new, folks.
Showdown at the DhO Corral...

The Staring Contest Olympics!!

Psi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jx36HklC_Y

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/15/16 10:50 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Chris J Macie:
re: Kim Katami (3/11/16 10:50 AM as a reply to Robert)

Your video portraits provide no solid proof. Anyone with a talent for concentration, or a trained skill in it (e.g. from meditation practice) can maintain that kind of sustained visage. Comparable before-after images like yours I could replicate using patients before and after acupuncture treatments – relaxing the facial muscles, softening the features and the eyes. And, like you do, with carefully selected subjects. "Testimonials", including things like that, are invariably driven by ulterior motives.

Ok. Film a video of yourself and we'll see.

I'd like to invite anyone to film them sitting in front of camera doing nothing, just being aware. To me this constant pushing and pulling on the level of mere word, is boring and useless. Let's try something new, folks.

That is thought that thinks it abides in thoughtless awareness. It's mere transience. Has nothing to do with the actual awareness that is beyond anything progressive or perfectable.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/15/16 1:23 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
A chapter from Tao Te Ching

Throw away holiness and wisdom,
and people will be a hundred times happier.
Throw away morality and justice,
and people will do the right thing.
Throw away industry and profit,
and there won't be any thieves.

If these three aren't enough,
just stay at the center of the circle
and let all things take their course.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/15/16 6:07 PM as a reply to Psi.
Psi:
Kim Katami:
Chris J Macie:
re: Kim Katami (3/11/16 10:50 AM as a reply to Robert)

Your video portraits provide no solid proof. Anyone with a talent for concentration, or a trained skill in it (e.g. from meditation practice) can maintain that kind of sustained visage. Comparable before-after images like yours I could replicate using patients before and after acupuncture treatments – relaxing the facial muscles, softening the features and the eyes. And, like you do, with carefully selected subjects. "Testimonials", including things like that, are invariably driven by ulterior motives.

Ok. Film a video of yourself and we'll see.

I'd like to invite anyone to film them sitting in front of camera doing nothing, just being aware. To me this constant pushing and pulling on the level of mere word, is boring and useless. Let's try something new, folks.
Showdown at the DhO Corral...

The Staring Contest Olympics!!

Psi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jx36HklC_Y

Kind of easy to win when one of the participants gets to make all the rules in advance and then claims to be the only valid judge of the results as well!  And if you don't agree, then your enlightenment is insufficient to the task.  ;-P   As for 'constant pushing and pulling on level of mere word,' as being 'boring and useless' this is a board where people type words so isn't that what would be expected?
-Eva

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/15/16 8:02 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Kind of easy to win when one of the participants gets to make all the rules in advance and then claims to be the only valid judge of the results as well!  And if you don't agree, then your enlightenment is insufficient to the task.  ;-P   As for 'constant pushing and pulling on level of mere word,' as being 'boring and useless' this is a board where people type words so isn't that what would be expected?
-Eva

Word

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/16/16 3:58 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva Nie
Psi
Kim Katami
Chris J Maciere: Kim Katami (3/11/16 10:50 AM as a reply to Robert)

Your video portraits provide no solid proof. Anyone
with a talent for concentration, or a trained skill in it (e.g. from
meditation practice) can maintain that kind of sustained visage
.
Comparable before-after images like yours I could replicate using
patients before and after acupuncture treatments – relaxing the facial
muscles, softening the features and the eyes. And, like you do, with
carefully selected subjects. "Testimonials", including things like that,
are invariably driven by ulterior motives.

Ok. Film a video of yourself and we'll see.

I'd
like to invite anyone to film them sitting in front of camera doing
nothing, just being aware. To me this constant pushing and pulling on
the level of mere word, is boring and useless. Let's try something new,
folks.
Showdown at the DhO Corral...

The Staring Contest Olympics!!

Psi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jx36HklC_Y

Kind
of easy to win when one of the participants gets to make all the rules
in advance and then claims to be the only valid judge of the results as
well!  And if you don't agree, then your enlightenment is insufficient
to the task.  ;-P   As for 'constant pushing and pulling on level of
mere word,' as being 'boring and useless' this is a board where people
type words so isn't that what would be expected?
-Eva
This
is a comment in regards to the mentioned video-suggestion. You are
missing the point I am saying, once again Eva, as did Chris Macie in his
above quote. I have not made rules in advance and nor do claim to be
the only valid judge of the possible videos (which I'd bet at this point
we'll never see). I was suggesting this could be something interesting
and new but people get tangled up with whatever I say, as soon as I say
it. Ha.

A while ago in the dharma marketplace-thread I said that there seem to be two choices
why people here end up reacting to my posts as they do. What I haven't
seen on this forum is a reasonable and truly pragmatic consideration of
what I have said. People either get off topic or reject what I say as
"horseshit". This is why I said there is a lack of pragmatism here. It's
biased reactions and endless over-intellectual debates, over and over
again. I know a few people who have got tired of the negative and
dismissive way of discussion of this forum and left. For a while I felt
this place really was a place of authentic and reasonable "what works is
the key"-forum and to some extent it is but it's the same bullshit here
as on any other forum. There are people here who don't understand what
they read and are not willing to find out, and end up projecting
whatever stuff their minds churn out. This is not reasonable dharma
discussion. That is mozo.

Fortunately, and hopefully for the
benefit of many, there are also few of those who actually have become
interested, have looked into and are keen to find out what I have said
here on topics such as Bhumi Study Series, to gauge it. Maybe they will
chime in on this later, after learning how this model is used.

Anyway. I'm out for paternal leave for a while.

Have fun.

Baba Kim Katami






RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/16/16 12:00 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

"horseshit"

Where is that comment if you don't dig it up and don't keep thinking about it?

And congrats for becoming a dad. Btw. all the comments that I make are general. Applies to everyone, including myself. Because the apparent ego is fundamentally one and the same thing in "everyone", it's the same mechanism. I personally do want it to be pointed out to me, everytime I slip into the mode of being a separate self and getting somehow blinded by the idea of separation. And to shake identification with "niceness" is to not play within the ruleset of niceness necessarily. And apparent compassion doesn't always look or feel kind or compassionate at all. It's life doing all that though, not anyone in particular doing it. And the doing is life too, not something separate from all that is.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/16/16 5:11 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
re: Kim Katami (3/15/16 7:31 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie)

"Ok. Film a video of yourself and we'll see."
Maybe it needs to be repeated – discerning about someone has to do with observing behavior, actions of body, speech, and mind, through time. Discerning is process, and what's discerned is process. Not a staring-down contest. Not your quasi-reified energetic-body bhumi or whatever snapshots.

From the get-go (Statistics of Sudden Awakenings), your activities here have been characterized by comparisons, competitions, that is to say conceit, which, in terms of Therevada stage-mapping, falls well short of release attainment (arahat, 4th path,…). As far as visual images go, folks might also consider the body-language in the avatar-persona image you use here.

"I'd like to invite anyone to film them sitting in front of camera doing nothing, just being aware."
Invite them to your own website or blog or whatever -- your own turf where you can have total control.

"To me this constant pushing and pulling on the level of mere word, is boring and useless. Let's try something new, folks."
After flooding DhO with your self-aggrandizing essays, creating a virtual mirror of the stuff on your websites (which is great for enhancing web-search visibility), and arrogantly fending off all suggestions (dharma marketplace thread) to mitigate that promotional "pushing", recent behavior seems to reflect a self-image that imagines it's well in command here – that you have the authority to call the shots.

Yes, maybe we can try something new, namely taking a closer look at the behavior we've been exposed to here, perhaps a dharma marketplace II.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/16/16 5:31 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
... A while ago in the dharma marketplace-thread I said that there seem to be two choices why people here end up reacting to my posts as they do. ...

Well, those 'two choices' were brought into question in that very thread. And I would say for quite obvious reasons. You didn't bother to answer... (I guess this was one of the too over-intellectual parts of the discussion.)

Kim Katami:
... What I haven't seen on this forum is a reasonable and truly pragmatic consideration of what I have said. ...

Are you talking about your so-called bhumi study? The consideration this topic got was more than reasonable. Your response, on the contrary, wasn't. You seem to think the only 'truly pragmatic consideration' would be to invest a couple of years to study an only rudimentarily outlined and less than poorly backed method, which furthermore has only one point of reference, namely you. Reason alone forbids to do as you propose. And reason isn't something that is per se at odds with pragmatism. You seem to be a bit confused around that point.

Kim Katami:
... People either get off topic or reject what I say as "horseshit". This is why I said there is a lack of pragmatism here. It's biased reactions and endless over-intellectual debates, over and over again. I know a few people who have got tired of the negative and dismissive way of discussion of this forum and left. For a while I felt this place really was a place of authentic and reasonable "what works is the key"-forum and to some extent it is but it's the same bullshit here as on any other forum. There are people here who don't understand what they read and are not willing to find out, and end up projecting whatever stuff their minds churn out. This is not reasonable dharma discussion. That is mozo. ...

IMHO: Red flags all over the place, classic strategies to discredit reasonable challenge, especially in a 'spiritual' context.

RE: Morals of awareness
Answer
3/16/16 8:17 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

This
is a comment in regards to the mentioned video-suggestion. You are
missing the point I am saying, once again Eva, as did Chris Macie in his
above quote. I have not made rules in advance and nor do claim to be
the only valid judge of the possible videos (which I'd bet at this point
we'll never see).

Ok well let see, you invented the system (according to you via information from dead masters relayed through your intuition), so I think that means you invented the rules.  If not you, then who?  And it's your system and only you have claimed ability to do the observation accurately, so who else are you saying would be qualified besides you? 

I was suggesting this could be something interesting

What interest did you think we would find watching videos of people doing nothing other than if we believed in your Bhumi study thing?

and new but people get tangled up with whatever I say, as soon as I say
it. Ha.

A while ago in the dharma marketplace-thread I said that there seem to be two choices
why people here end up reacting to my posts as they do.

And others said that the 2 choices you mentioned are the only 2 choices your mind is willing to see but that there are actually a LOT of other choices available, just that you don't like any of those other ones.  Maybe the reason that you don't have a lot of people agreeing with you is because you are wrong, but you prefer to assume that it HAS to be either that they are lazy or that they don't understand. 

What I haven't
seen on this forum is a reasonable and truly pragmatic consideration of
what I have said.

People considered it, but then they rejected it.  Did you think that consideration would automatically yield acceptance? 

People either get off topic or reject what I say as
"horseshit". This is why I said there is a lack of pragmatism here.

SOunds like in your mind, 'pragmatism' can only happen if people agree with you, if they don't, then you assume there is no pragmatism.

It's
biased reactions and endless over-intellectual debates, over and over
again.

You started many of the intellectual debates, but now that people are not agreeing with you, you are complaining about them. 

I know a few people who have got tired of the negative and
dismissive way of discussion of this forum and left. For a while I felt
this place really was a place of authentic and reasonable "what works is
the key"-forum and to some extent it is but it's the same bullshit here
as on any other forum.

You come here by yourself having self appointed yourself a fancy title of 'baba' with wild claims for a system you invented by yourself and zero evidence and saying you are better than all the great masters and daily trying to advertise your website and then complain that other people don't believe your claims and say that shows lack of pragmatism?  Do you not see the problems there?  Sounds like you have had similar experiences with other forums too and that does not surprise me. 

There are people here who don't understand what
they read and are not willing to find out, and end up projecting
whatever stuff their minds churn out. This is not reasonable dharma
discussion. That is mozo.

Well it seems to me that there are 3 choices here, either everyone else is projecting their stuff, or YOU are projecting YOUR stuff, or both.  I'd say it's always both, but I am guessing your ego will only consider the first one.
-Eva