For my 1st path experience:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5540371
It's been a year and a half ago.

So, I finally went to a Goenka retreat, tired of cycling, and having good experiences that eventually, proved not to be fruitions or paths.
It really struck me how useful retreats are. Nanas are crystal clear. Fast progress is made.

Day 1: We were instructed to do anapana (concentration on the breath on the nostrils). I developed a very, very strong 1st Jhana. In all meditations I was seeing blinking lights (AP).

Day 2: We were instructed to do anapana on a smaller area. I had an experience where I felt that the area I was focusing was not me. I could not get back to my body. It seemed foreign. AP event. From this moment I couldn't concentrate and started DN.

Day 3: Sunny day. Got to equanimity. Doing walking meditation I had a near miss. Then, during meditation, the mind shifted, I woke up, subtle flow from front of head to back, and attained 2nd path.
Relief, super-hearing, colors seemed a lot brighter, etc. But my "check if it stays" is in what I see.
Whenever I saw something, it was different, like not being able to focus on a single thing without focusing wide. Eyesight was also "kinder", "softer".
The same as SE, the change in perspective remained (I checked for three days).

Day 4: Again the lights (AP - Revision).

Day 5: We were told to focus on sensations. So I did, and I felt my whole body vibrating in small particles. Then, out of the blue, an experience where all the particles are carried away by the wind. AP Event - Revision.
Feelings of misery, doubt, etc.

Day 6: Another lovely day. Equanimity and a fruition. There was a blip. The fruition had the "its done" thing.

Day 7 to 10. Spent the rest of the retreat focusing on concentration. Had some really strong kundalini experiences, and I think at the end I learned how to move energies with ease.
I think that during that period I did another review cycle. There was an event where I don't know if there was a blip, but I'm pretty sure it was a fruition. Sometimes, with my eyes closed, I could visualize crystal clear mandalas and complex geometries.

I will spend some time in revision, but any tips on how to progress to 3rd are welcome .

Sounds really good! Probably the best way to make progress toward 3rd is to really enjoy things right now. Let the lack of suffering/clinging really sink in and leave its impression on you. Progress happens when remaining areas of clinging stand out against the background of joy/freedom/relief, so get used to the newfound sense of relief. Hope that helps!

Thanks. Will try that.

You might define what you mean by third path...there are quite a few different opinions floating around...
Advice for one might not necessarily fit your exact definition.
Daniels definition of third path - http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5741961?_19_keywords=&_19_advancedSearch=false&_19_andOperator=true&_19_resetCur=false&_19_delta=75#_19_message_5744145

~D

Edit : oh, and congrats on your shift, enjoy!

Thanks for the link.

I do feel a marked reduction in stress and "things going on their own" (agencylessness).
And it seems to be improving over time.

With regards on Daniel definition:

i) Things should mostly seem to be happening on their own
ii) One's waking experience of awareness should be very different.

There seems to be more luminosity.....

Anyway, how about this definition of 3rd path?

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5800908#_19_message_5800939

For me, at least, a "path" is very easy to define.

1. There is a change in perception, triggered by a "wake up" experience.
2. That change of perception holds the test of time.

Right now, I had 2 significant changes in perception. So 1st and 2nd path.
It should be noted that as the path matures, there are changes. So perception at the beginning on 1st path is not the same as perception at late 1st path.

However, my definition stands still.
Path moments involve such massive change in perception that, at least for me, they are easy to identify.

At least for now......

Cool, I find that the agencylessness seems to be great at first and then consolidates as you really tune into what it entails, then I get used to it and it seems to be less impressive, then my sensitivity to the remaining selfing processes gets turned up till i am no longer impressed with that lavel of agentcylessness.

Post shift, during the honeymoon phase these things seem really strong each time.

Whats your definition of luminosity?

Oh, that dude, ya, I've read most of that guys stuff, it obviously needs more work but I kinda like where he is going with it.
His 2.5 is obviously really the physical body work category of third path...
If your going with that model then you can choose a sense door to work on to get the shift in that category...

The first two shifts are linear (1st and second paths) and straight forward for most, two complete cycles of the nanas with fruition each time.
Third path gets more complicated and the longer I'm in that territory the more clearly the complications get. I thought my next shift after second path was third, I no longer think that. I think that it only signifies the beginning of the third path journey with the end of it being many things to many people depending on what they work on. You may skip all the sense door perceptual changes and just get the center to drop out and most people are pretty darn happy with just that.
Message me if you want to chat sometime,
~D

Yeah, I know, eventually you get used to it.

My definition of luminosity varies, but it usually means what you get or feel just before a fruition, or some experiences that are alike.
It occurs to me when trying to observe the observer, and then observe the observer of the observe, depending of the nana I'm in (it doesn't always work). Some kind of calmness sets in the "doing something" and "not doing something" resolves. When it happens, evertthing is brigther, lighter, etc, at least for a while.

I'm not saying that not I feel that strenght of luminosity all the time, but that quality has improved, permanently, from 2nd path. Thing do seem brigther and lighter.

2.5 path seem interesting. Most people talk about "complications" around third path.
Maybe from here on, you need to remove duality from the action of perceptual changes.

One thing I'd like to know is if retreats are mandatory to get to 3rd path, or if practice needs to change.

People that got all the way say that the thing is not linear. That 4th is very different from the others. Maybe that difference starts at 3rd path.

Thanks for the "Framework of Awakening", really impressive.

Ernest:



In terms of "DhO vocab," this sounds more like 'formations' (or just 'high-eq side effects) and 'luminosity' would refer more to a type of permanent, perceptual shift that happens to some, but not others: specifically, a de-centralization of the way the spatial field is processed.

You are right, the observe the observer happened on EQ, before second path. They were probably formations. And there was some de-centralization.

However, after second path, things do seem brighter and somehow "lighter", permanently, or at least, most of the time.

The "luminosity thing" is taken from Daniel third path criteria:

"One's waking experience of awareness should be very different. There are lots of ways to say this, but I tend towards the following descriptions: the basic light/luminosity/awareness/manifestation in phenomena should mostly be known directly as being where the objects are."

Well, I do see things brighter and lighter, but not where the objects are.

Trying to describe perceptual changes or phenomenology triggered by meditation sucks

Ernest:

IMO, Daniel's third & fourth path are much different, and farther along, then what I consider to be "technical 3rd & 4th path," which is an attainment with a much larger sample size and much clearer criteria.  Luminosity would be one example of a slew of possible shifts which dramatically alter waking reality constantly, beyond a strong, but intuitive knowledge of emptiness.  I haven't experienced any of these...

This has happened to me as well.  Things are much more clear.  But my attention mechanism still partializes reality into bits and peices, and still has a home base in my head.  Anyhoo, I wouldn't worry too much about the numbering system, unless you are working with a teacher who uses it.  Just know that this journey is endless, and that there are lots of ways reality-processing can be permanently altered.

Well, it's been 2 months. I'm pretty sure I ended revision and started the road to 3rd path.

I'm a little puzzled about something: I had a "half cycle" that I think was 3rd path because it was very different from revision. It also kicked my ass and was really intense (which revision usually isn't ). It lasted till low EQ and then I started over (mind and body).

Before that I had another revision cycle (added to the 2s of retreat) and a "wait" period.

Now I'm at 3Cs or AP (from 2nd to 3rd).

So, to summarize:

- Second path.
- 3 revisions.
- Wait period.
- Soft half path cycle from 2nd to 3rd (not so sure about this one).
- Strong crystal clear cycle from Mind and Body to 3Cs or AP (from 2nd to 3rd).

The more and more I learn about these things, the more I think that conceptualization, rationalization and theory become hindrances and that all you really have to do is to be in the present (the 3Cs help).

Another thing that happened to me is a very noticeable drop in desire and aversion (the fruit of 2nd path?).

These days I have a lot of energy, I can concentrate very easily, super vision, desire to share and do, time slows down at will.

So, AP (not reached the AP event yet).

Do you mean "review"?

Have fun keeping track of cycles. It becomes tedious and then you stop after a while. Have fun with the shifts. Figuring out what is what will keep you busy til at least 11th path.
~D

Yes, review.

Yeah, sometimes it's fun to keep track of cycles and sometimes it's not.
The same about shifts and "big" experiencies.

I do try to keep some sort of a log of what's going on (when I think I know what's going on ).
However, you loose a lot. Words fail to describe experiences, ideas ,etc...
There also a lot of stuff going that I'm used to, or doesn't sound as "new" (and I usually I dont' write about).

Right now, I'm sure I got 2nd, that I haven't got 3rd and that I started the cycle from 2nd to 3rd (or whatever comes after 2nd :smug.

Strong crystal clear EQ. Yesterday I was walking in the park (a long walk) and I think I had a near miss fruition. Like something started shifting but didn't end. I stared at the lake for a long, long time without any thought.
Noting is continuous, without too much effort.

Everything I do is really effortless. It's like I'm in perfect armony with what's happening. It's really calm.

This comes after a short but strong DN. Still cycling.

For anyone not keeping track, this would be EQ from 2nd to 3rd. Or from 2nd to 2.5nd in DWs model .

Looks like your approach is the same as what got you 1st and second....
I tracked the first dozen cycles or so then gave up as they are not complete cycles and there are sub cycles and there are cycles what start from wherever and go nowhere or somewhere.....so keep track for as long as its fun, but do not derive progress or meaning from them anymore.

Some fun reading - http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3529941

I would pick a a sense door to work with and do a deep dive to notice everything that makes it up.

1. Feeling/whole body/boundaries/propriocepion/sauna heat sweatlodge
2. Sight/focus/panoramic/selection
3. Hearing/nada sound/selection/hearing space/silentness
4. Thoughts/imagination space/boundaries/selection/5-6 jhana/presence/stillness
5. Metta/love/joy/emotion locations/boundaries

These are just some of the things I have explored in great detail and continue to do so. The goal is to open each sense door wider by finding ways to tune into and possibly violate the current fixed boundaries.
Good luck,
~D

I don't count cycles as a mark of progress. In fact, I said that before:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5540371#_19_message_5555677

That doesn't mean that they don't happen. Cycles tend to remind me that everything changes (impermanence).

With attainment, the abilities to alter and notice the sense doors are improved, so challenging the limits of that makes sense.

However, maybe I'm a one trick pony, but for me the most progress has come from strong continuous noting (non verbal) moment to moment for long periods of time. In that noting the 3Cs are revealed (part of them at least).
Sometimes in that noting the sense doors expand and sometimes they contract, sometimes I cling to them and sometimes I don't.

Right now, my goals are:

- Being able to trigger a fruition at will (I'm closing on this one).

- Morality: lots of work in progress involving metta, eightfold path, etc.

- Trying to notice the avoidance, trying not to punish myself or others (even at the subconsious level) for the things that happen.
I really don't know how to explain this one. It's more a feeling that an idea . It involves what happens and my relationship to it. Doing and not doing, etc.

- Keep improving health and physical body (yoga, diet, stress management, etc). I tend to meditate and function better when I feel well (healthy) .

- Generosity, I'm beginning to explore this one.

About my approach. To get 1st I did continuous noting (and it worked). To get 2nd continuous noting didn't work (or maybe I didn't do enough of it). A retreat did it. However it must be said that I was very close to second.

So, continuous noting it is. It's not that I don't do other things, I just don't value them so much as markers of progress (at least for now).

My experience, at least.

This is a really good insight.

Non verbal noting, so just noticing? So youll maintain continuous awareness but not mentall say "feeling", "itch", etc? youll notice an itch but not say "itch" mentally?

I have similar question to others when i was learning to read and started to read without spelling words out. But the thing is that the tongue still will move little bit when reading when you want to get to know the meaning you read otherwise if you just plant your eyes to text you don't get out anything.

I tend to start with blip, blip, blip. Then I realize that the blip is later that the sensation, so I force myself to try to "catch" the sensations (like the zapping bugs analogy in MCT. At some point, I notice the effort and other things, like adding more and more things to the flickering mix.

It must be said that I'm not able to keep doing this for a long time, I'm not a mighty meditator . 

But when I do, specially for a long time, I get realizations about the 3Cs, etc.

In retreat, just before I got 2nd path, I spent 2 days doing continous noting. It really helped that nobody talked to me, and the retreat layout in general.

In daily life, even when I'm quiet meditating, I find hard to keep noticing because there are too many subtle things about what has to be done or what I did in daily life.

I'm starting to add walks in open spaces again. They seem to help a lot to build momentum. When walking in open spaces I find easier to put my worries in pespective.

[quote=Ernest Michael Olmos

]In retreat, just before I got 2nd path, I spent 2 days doing continous noting. It really helped that nobody talked to me, and the retreat layout in general.

Sorry Ernest, I am 99% sure what you mean here but could you briefly elaborate on continuous noting? I am a noob meditator so please bare with me

What I think you are saying is you are aware and noticing anything that arises through the six sense doors but when they arise you dont make a mental note of them, as in if a thought arose you would just notice it as opposed to noticing it then mentally saying to yourself "thought".

I dont really know why I am asking this as I am certain this is what you mean.

Well, it's not just one thing, lots of different things tend to happen.

Sometimes I'm just aware of what's going on, not labeling, not even noticing. That's easier to do when you're focusing on only one thing.

Sometimes, when doing multitasking or when agitated, I do get some kind of label, like doing this, doing that.

Sometimes, I go to a place where I'm "on top of things" in my mind, like a quiet place, and from there, catch sensations (fast). At some point, I try to mix the observer (the one on top of things) with whats going on.

Sometimes I play with things, like expanding, contracting, colours, zooming in, out (here I don't label nor notice, I'm just aware).
Sometimes I focus on body sensations (pleasant ones like the breath, and unpleasant, like itches, worries, etc).

Anyway, for me it's important that meditation or noting doesn't build another layer of "certainty" or personality identification. The same with solidity of abstractions (this is this, this is that).
Of course, I can't help it, it happens, so I try to notice that (notice noting, notice expanding, notice hardening, notice softing, notice integrating or unifiying).

The selfing process grabs on anything, and then you enter a distortion, like a dream pinpointing your head or your chest. It's very difficult to put into words. Daniel says somewhere that it is like a vague nausea (that's actually a very good description).
Of course, there is no selfing process, it's something we do as a habit, moment to moment.

Reading what I just wrote, I get the feeling that I write like I know what I'm talking about (and that's not true).
So, take it like an opinion, an educated guess.

Even if I try to be completely honest, there is a big difference between what you do and the memory or analysis of it (I couldn't write in the retreat). On top of that, there is even more distortion as you put it into words.

Hope it helps.

Breakthrough.

Dietary change that relaxes muscles improving flexibility and relaxation over time.
Strong improvements all over the board (neck, back, crown, jaw, sitting posture, walking posture, sleep quality, energy, concentration, etc).

I've been using most of the energy to organize my daily life (doing lots things I should have done long ago).

About practice, I've been trying to focus on suffering and impermanence.

In daily life, mostly noting ways that I'm always trying to escape suffering by identifying with the things I do, I think, etc.
Also, noting how I always think that I'm separated or independent from the things I do.

Noting how some thoughts think they have control of others or sensations.
Specially when noting, noting seems to "control" the things one notes. If I try to shut down this, then again I'm trying to control things.

So, as I let things happen, the noting becomes more and more subtle.
The problem is that when you ditch effort, you lack a sense of direction.

I'm really curious of what will happen when all the stiffness in the back and the neck resolve (which, by the rates of improvement, will not take more than 3 or 4 months). Also, what will happen when the hips, chest and the throat open.

Would you be willing to elucidate?

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Well, I've been playing with my diet for a while now (more than 3 years).

It started 4 years ago, when I started having digestive problems.
After some doctors, studies and pills (which didn't solve or find anything), I started modifying my diet (adding some veggies).
I used to eat no veggies at all.

I started reading info in the internet, etc. And I became really regular with the meals, not focusing so much on taste or sociability but on the effect food had on me. Not only my digestive problems resolved, but I found a lot of other things that diet solved.

This was all part of a bigger change in my life that took place before that time (which includes meditation).

Long story short, I removed seeds, added more oatmeal with blueberry juice (only blueberry juice) and some of cocoa powder (good quality), and cut back on legumes (I was eating a lot).
I think the "secret ingredient" is cocoa powder (in the context of my low fat vegan diet).

I started noticing the effects on my neck the first two weeks. Around three weeks my sleep had improved.
I noticed I was more relaxed. While they hurted, I noticed that I could stretch my legs more. I could sit in lotus and place both knees on the ground (I've been trying to do that for 2 years....).

Some releasing of pressure in my head also made senses a lot more "real". My posture improved. I have more confidence, etc.
In yoga I started being close do to poses that I couldn't even attempt to do.

It's important to note, however, that I can't relate this change to meditation. They are physical, and while they had great impact in my life, they do not compare to paths. I think paths are better

I'm still 2nd path and the breakthrough is not related to meditation.

However, if I keep my diet (which I'll do), I can't help think what will happen when I release the knots in the back of my head (some have been released) and the crown, etc.
Also, if I'm able to sit for longer periods, or other things.
Finally, I don't know how to integrate this with the stages.

I'm convinced that regular activities, like what you eat, what you think, your work, your emotions, etc, have a profound effect on meditation. I'm also pretty sure that to meditate to escape all those things is a bad idea. Isolating meditation from those things is a bad idea.
Daniel talked a lot about his efforts to meditate while being ill.
MCTB also talks a lot about "jaw, neck, back, etc".

Maybe this "relaxing" stabilizes (doesn't seem so). Maybe it's dangerous and I'm ruining my health (I faced that fear some time ago ).
Maybe this helps me get 3rd or 4th path. Maybe it hinders my meditation.

My blood pressure dropped from 110/70s to 100/60s - 90/50s. While I haven't been feeling dizzy, I wonder if that is too low.
Like I said, physical, measurable changes.

So far, it seems to have only positives, but you never know. I'll be careful.

I appreciate the effort of your reply. I'm vegetarian (ovo/lacto) but have tension in my neck shoulders during meditation. Working with stretching, and to slowly change my diet and see what happens, since messing with posture (which I'm relatively sure is fine) hasn't yielded much result. 

Well, if it doesn't work, or doesn't work good enough, try changes.

Take it slow, be gentle with yourself, but make changes.

There is this idea in meditation that posture doesn't matter, what you think doesn't matter, what you eat doesn't matter, what you do (when you are not meditating) doesn't matter.
But it does matter (in fact, it's all part of the first training, morality).

The important thing is to try to be regular. Doing things consistently for some time yields extraordinary results.
It's difficult because we are wired with fear of change.

I've been having a lot of success with posture and diet. Not so much with generosity, lust, not lying, etc.
But people have done it, so it can be done.
I'm sure concentration and insight helped in the way.

One thing that helped me a lot is to connect with my fears. The fear of harming yourself, of being ridiculed by others, of missing things, the fear of wasting my time, the fear of death, of being human and being glued to a world that can't be understood, only experienced.
In fact, I used that fear as a suffering meditation, not to make those things dissapear (they are part of me), not to understand them.
Just watching them move.

I haven't posted most of my failures in morality because the progress I made was so small that it wasn't worth posting.

Now that I think about it, there should be a section "Claim of Failures" (as opossed to "Attainments").
Trying to do things have value, even if you don't succeed.

In fact, when people claim to have attained something, the first question is about progress, what they've been doing, etc. And before you attain something, failure is what has been happening.

Well, these days there has been an important change in the state of mind.

It's like some blockage has been removed and I can return to normal life. I resumed a lot of projects I've put on hold.
I have this constant, serene and strong energy to do things. Desires have returned, but not like wow, more like things going on their own.

In my everyday noting, I keep noting the selfing process (after all, it can't be stopped, only noted).
I try not to get attached to this new "state", trying to see it's impermanence, it's "moving".

I had a discussion the other day about how, when you note hard enough, the mind tries to find a "this is it", some kind of source of things or phenomena.
When in reality, it's more like a wheel, or the chicken and the egg paradox.
The best you can do to shake this concept is to keep the wheel spinning really fast, noting even the noting.

My guess is that this stage it is some kind medium-high equanimity in my path to 3rd.
It feels really nice, everything moving in harmony, going it's own way. Of course I get attached to it (even at very subtle levels). What I try to do is to note that attachment.
My mind desperately tries to find the source of this state (was it yoga, the noting, the food) to somehow make the thing permanent.

When noting the attachment, the search for "this is it", I keep coming to the desire for comfort of something permanent, where there is no suffering, somewhat separated from me.
Again, the 3Cs. But being really there, in the present, is very, very hard.

So, noting, paradoxes, attachment, 3Cs, attainments, changes of state of mind: the life of the seeker goes on.
Another attainment and obstacle in the path.
Nothing to see here. Keep moving on, trying to get to where I am, not.

Having a lot of changes in my life. I'm not so obsessed about meditation. I'm trying to put my life in order.
But, there a feel of release, and a lot of things about relations, work and my daily actions that don't bother my anymore.

Even more, very often I feel this kind of reset, like my mind frees itself from the burden of the past.
So, I feel more spontaneus, free and honest.

That said, this resets (more than 20 or 30 so far) are not fruitions. There's not blip, I can make them happen at will, and there's no entrance.

But....I've had some kind of massive "feeling great' states very similar to afterglows.
And from time to time, the mind gets in absoption (real hard concentration) and I feel like the entrance to something.

So, I can't discard that I may have had some fruitions (one or two).

I'm also doing a lot of yoga, and having a lot of "stretching", specially at the hips, back, neck, jaw and crown. So I can't discard some "chakra" releasing.

About stages, it feels like a combination of AP and EQ. This stage makes it feel like all what happened before was some kind of cycling in some kind of coloured dark night.

About definite change in perspective, no change. That said, my vision does seem a very out of focus, like right after I got second path (with the afterglow).
My guess is that I've had some fruitions.

Sometimes I have this tendency to map things, like, this is concentration, this is jhana, this is a fruition, this is a path.
Sometimes I feel this mapping hinders progress in the path, and I also I'm brutally honest about the things that happen. The mapping, the doing, is another link in the chain.

So, I kind of "go without direction", watching experience flow, feeling the fear of not being able to hold on or relate to anything.

This stage feels like the combination of the two. I do things, I map, categorize, but those things don't take so much of hold on me. But not at the same time, like an alternation, hold, release, hold, release.
And sometimes, at the same time (those moments feel great).

Well, that's it.
No path, probable fruitions, strong release (AP?EQ?), still cycling (from time to time I feel the changes of the stages, and I can make them move along at will when I'm quiet).
Also second path is said to lessen attachment and aversion. This state really feels this way. So I'm probably getting the fruit of second path.

I can't discard yoga and body changes helping things move along.

I'm doing a 10 day home retreat soon. Advice is welcome .