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How-to-Cessation/Nirodha

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How-to-Cessation/Nirodha
Answer
5/11/16 2:19 PM
Hi folks,

We've had couple of interesting sessions of "Cutting through Samsara and entering Nirvana" here at Helsinki, Finland. Here cutting through the dualistic mind refers technically to rhythmical shouting of mantric syllables which is done in some traditions but systematically only in very few (at least what I know about). Whether this is done as a tantric practice (with initiation of the particular mantras) or as a sutric practice (without initiation, using preferred syllables) it works like magic. Try it out and see for yourself.

Few comments from participants:

S: ”After watching your latest video about the chanting, and doing it, something shifted and there was a clear seeing completely through
thought, to the empty nature that is it, which has remained open.”


J: ”After 2 hours after the shouting session, my mind and perception kept flickering off and on. It was similar to lights being turned off
and on, off and on, again and again, in a quick rhythm. These cessations lasted for a few seconds at a time. It kept happening
again and again. Afterwards I felt very tired”.

H: Thank you once more for tonight's practice! What a wonderful feeling it was to experience a mind without thoughts.

Links to videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5FCwS9mORY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgmkAQTYiEM



RE: How-to-Cessation/Nirodha
Answer
5/11/16 5:01 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:


J: ”After 2 hours after the shouting session, my mind and perception kept flickering off and on. It was similar to lights being turned off
and on, off and on, again and again, in a quick rhythm. These cessations lasted for a few seconds at a time. It kept happening
again and again. Afterwards I felt very tired”.

Flickering with a quick rhythm is definitely not Nirodha. Not Nirodha Samapatti, not Cessation / Fruition. Just flickering. Many different nanas can give this kind of effect, I often get it around Equanimity.

RE: How-to-Cessation/Nirodha
Answer
5/12/16 2:43 AM as a reply to neko.
My friend's description of what happened was very clear. Not all of it is in the quote. Just like I described in the text/speech about cessation. I think MCTB said something on cessations being short, only a couple of seconds long in the beginning. I don't have time to find it now.

RE: How-to-Cessation/Nirodha
Answer
5/12/16 11:58 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
... Here cutting through the dualistic mind refers technically to rhythmical shouting of mantric syllables which is done in some traditions but systematically only in very few (at least what I know about).
...
J: "After 2 hours after the shouting session, my mind and perception kept flickering off and on. It was similar to lights being turned off and on, off and on, again and again, in a quick rhythm. These cessations lasted for a few seconds at a time. It kept happening again and again. Afterwards I felt very tired".

Are you equating the "flickering off and on of mind and perception" as described here with cessations/fruitions that mark the end of an insight cycle (be it a "macro" cycle or a quick one in a review phase)? Or do you mean nirodha samapatti? Both seems more than far-fetched to me. As neko already mentioned, a lot of stuff can be the cause of such kind of flickering. I often, not always, experience episodes of "flickering" during A&P (rather fast), some of the dukkha nanas (rather slow) and at start of equanimity (refined and fast). It's not at all surprising that a rhythmical shouting causes a mental echo that lasts for some time--shouting is a rather intense activity. Contrary to the reported tiredness, a cessation, and probably much more nirodha samapatti (never been there), does result in a substantial sense of bodily and mental refreshment (at least for me).

RE: How-to-Cessation/Nirodha
Answer
5/19/16 5:11 AM as a reply to -- Timus --.
-- Timus --:

Are you equating the "flickering off and on of mind and perception" as described here with cessations/fruitions that mark the end of an insight cycle (be it a "macro" cycle or a quick one in a review phase)? Or do you mean nirodha samapatti? Both seems more than far-fetched to me. As neko already mentioned, a lot of stuff can be the cause of such kind of flickering. I often, not always, experience episodes of "flickering" during A&P (rather fast), some of the dukkha nanas (rather slow) and at start of equanimity (refined and fast). It's not at all surprising that a rhythmical shouting causes a mental echo that lasts for some time--shouting is a rather intense activity. Contrary to the reported tiredness, a cessation, and probably much more nirodha samapatti (never been there), does result in a substantial sense of bodily and mental refreshment (at least for me).


Kim wrote ::::

This is what I mean. Daniel says: "I always mean the cessation of perception and feeling when I use the word “Nirodha,” but others may not.", quoted from here.
 
>Contrary to the reported tiredness, a cessation, and probably much more nirodha samapatti (never been there), does result in a substantial sense of bodily and mental refreshment (at least for me).

I suppose this can depend on various factors.

If anyone wants to try the practice mentioned above, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98YK98chvEw
It can be done both as sutra and tantra practice with results.

RE: How-to-Cessation/Nirodha
Answer
5/19/16 11:07 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
The flickering that you or your student experienced is an effect created by the practice that you were doing, that also includes the no thoughts that was experienced. This has nothing to do with Cessation/Nirodha experiences. Don't go teaching such ideas to people, or at least run this by a number of meditators who are experienced in these aspects of meditation first as apposed to a reference to a book.

1x edit.

RE: How-to-Cessation/Nirodha
Answer
5/19/16 7:46 AM as a reply to Bigbird.
Bigbird:
The flickering that you or your student experienced is an effect created by the practice that you were doing, that also includes the no thoughts that was experienced. This has nothing to do with Cessation/Nirodha experiences. Don't go teaching such rubbish to people, or at least run this by a number of meditators who are experienced in these aspects of meditation first as apposed to a reference to a book.
I shouldn't have added those short quotes because they give a wrong idea of the whole thing, which are what people in this thread have firstly commented. I wonder if you listened to the talks/sessions.

RE: How-to-Cessation/Nirodha
Answer
5/19/16 11:04 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Yes my response was to the quotes, and the video of the shouting practice. Ive had a brief look at the other stuff, but don't have the time to look at it all and therefore have no comment.
The on/off effect of shouting or say noting can produce after effects that could be described as flickers, echoes, waves, wobbles etc and also a very quiet mind. This can last for varying periods of time and effect individual's to varying degrees. This can actually get in the way of clear seeing for some people as it adds alot of unnecessary instability to the experience.
In the case of the J quote this could lead people to get the wrong idea about whats happening, and possibly believe they are in Cessation/Nirodha territory.

RE: How-to-Cessation/Nirodha
Answer
5/19/16 11:47 AM as a reply to Bigbird.
My friend is Finnish so I had to translate what he said to English. I though "flickering" is the correct word here. However, I suppose flickering can mean many things. What I said earlier: I think MCTB said something on cessations being short, only a couple of seconds long in the beginning.
I've had numerous of these short ones too but also long ones, the longest lasting for about 3 hours. Just mentioning for context.