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A&P ???
Answer
6/5/16 9:01 AM
In the MCTB Daniel says that the A&P can have

"Visions, unusual sensory abilites (such as seeing nearby things through one's closed eyelids), out of body experiences, ans especially bright lights... bright white light...wild kundalini...explosions of consciousness...vortexes.." etc.

But are these a definite sign of hitting A&P, or can these things just happen without being an indication of any progress etc. ?

So it can't be taken for granted that if any of these things happen that it necessarily follows that progress is being made - it's only a "maybe" ? Maybe it was just stuff that happened ?

And what is the difference between bliss states in A&P, and in any of the other jhanas ? Is it a matter of intensity ? - because as it's described it reads like a Burroughs cut-up experiment made of bits of all sorts.

RE: A&P ???
Answer
6/5/16 9:24 AM as a reply to Stick Man.
howdy john,
i can't answer your question because it is a litle speculative.  i would say that its not impossible to have experiences that mirror the typical A&P descriptions.  did they happen while taking drugs?  did they occur while in an extreme situation or sensory deprivation period?

the point is really that if one is practicing vipassana there are certain signs along the way which are common to most people who do the same.  the A&P and the wild signs are one obvious sign that we call progress only if we are intentionally trying to get somewhere.  they can be spontaneous though so determined practice is not necessarily a prerequisite.

in your last question comparing "bliss states"  and the A&P there is perhaps a little need to get the nomenclature clear.

the A&P is one of the stages of insight and is named as a stage of progress in vipassana.  the jhanas are about absorption.  generally the techniques differ between the two practices as do the percieved results.  jhanas tend to be more pleasant whereas vipassana nanas tend to be less stable and thus less comforting.

these differing practices are working on the same mind and are just emphasizing different aspects of that complex reality. jhana practices are generally exclusive (meaning one focuses away from certain aspects of experience to encourage calm abiding) whereas vipassana introduces an inclusive  mindset which takes any arising object and depersonalizes it by focusing on the impermanance, dissatisfying and impersonal nature of it.  It is much more dynamic and energetic and has different results.

i hope this answers your question a bit.

cheers

tom

RE: A&P ???
Answer
6/5/16 9:40 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
Well, for instance OOBE can happen in extreme stress situations - or accidents. It would seem odd to say that crashing a car can take you through all the jhanas - but maybe it actually can ?

Nice distinction between jhana and vipassana - like looking at one colour in the rainbow instead of all seven.

I'm looking at how he describes the way people become attached to the circumstances of when it happeed - like a someone becoming a hardcore Christian because it happened while hanging out with a faith healer.

Would that mean that the faith healer was somehow taking the person through the earlier stages without it being on the deliberate buddhist map ?

So does experiencing an A&P event outside of a formal practice mean you have gone through all that formality informally ? ie - monasteries don't have the monopoly on sitting and being absorbed - people sitting in libraries or driving trains can be doing it too ?

thanks for reply Tom.

RE: A&P ???
Answer
6/5/16 11:18 AM as a reply to Stick Man.
I got A&P while nearly crashing a car at high speed, although I was never tempted to return to those circumstances (on the contrary, I got a nice little phobia out of it). I can't imagine anyone, ever going through jhanas crashing a car. I do know someone who ended up on a median strip at high speed, and suddenly everything slowed way down and she was able to steer around trees and regain control of the car successfully. The mind can do wonderful things. 

As for going through earlier nyanas (mind and body, etc.), I don't know that spontaneous A&P mandates having done so. It's a question not worth speculating about much, mostly because there are better things to do with your time. My take, FWIW.

RE: A&P ???
Answer
6/5/16 1:40 PM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Laurel Carrington:
I got A&P while nearly crashing a car at high speed, although I was never tempted to return to those circumstances (on the contrary, I got a nice little phobia out of it). I can't imagine anyone, ever going through jhanas crashing a car. I do know someone who ended up on a median strip at high speed, and suddenly everything slowed way down and she was able to steer around trees and regain control of the car successfully. The mind can do wonderful things. 

As for going through earlier nyanas (mind and body, etc.), I don't know that spontaneous A&P mandates having done so. It's a question not worth speculating about much, mostly because there are better things to do with your time. My take, FWIW.
I have had similar experiences, while practicing and driving. I learned very quickly that it was not a good idea. Now I lay off anything that might hint at impairing my ability to drive properly and safely. Having an expansive awareness and paying attention is still good practice behind the wheel though emoticon

RE: A&P ???
Answer
6/5/16 9:01 PM as a reply to Stick Man.
Hi John,

I think somewhere in MCTB Daniel says that a sense of one the three characteristics: anatta, ancia, dukka (or not-self, impermenance, suffering) pervades the A&P event. For myself, it was anicia, a feeling of total impermance of everything, the world completely dissolving away in every second.

Hope that helps.

RE: A&P ???
Answer
6/5/16 10:28 PM as a reply to Small Steps.
I should point out that my accident happened in 1973, when Dan Ingram was a little kid and I had never heard of the A&P or anything else on the progress of insight map (although I was somewhat interested in Christian mysticism at that point). So it would be an example of spontaneous A&P brought on by the trauma of near death. 

I have done noting while driving with no ill effects, and I know people who practiced extensively while commuting. Perhaps it isn't a good idea? I never really thought about it, I must confess. You are wise to suggest laying off immediately if anything takes your mind off what you need to be doing, which is drive the car.

RE: A&P ???
Answer
6/6/16 7:56 AM as a reply to Stick Man.
Anything can be AP. If someone asks you to do something, then you will have AP and DN too.

You have to notice it when it happens and be aware of the movements. Otherwise rinse and repeat the same process without gaining any benefit.