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Dealing with the Dark Night

Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of grief

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Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of grief
depression dark night dark night grief
Answer
6/16/16 8:41 AM
The six stages of the Dark Night, according to Daniel Ingram's book, are:
  1. Dissolution,
  2. fear,
  3. missery,
  4. disgust,
  5. desire for deliverance,
  6. re-observation.
The five stages of grief, according to the popular [url=]Kübler-Ross model, are:
  1. Denial,
  2. anger,
  3. bargaining,
  4. depression,
  5. acceptance. 
On first sight these more or less random terms do not seem very similar. Additionaly in one system there are five stages and in the other there are six. However,  we all acknowledge that these stages are more or less arbitrary boundaries for a continuous process, and that the one or two words used to define them are necessarily limiting and subjective.

With that in mind, I can see how insight's "dissolution" and grief's "denial" share many of the same characteristics. In my experience, "fear" and "anger" are intimately bond; "misery" souds like the perfect scenario for emotional "bargaining"; and "depression" and "disgust" go hand on hand most times. Finally, "desire for deliverance" and "re-observation" can be viewed as a natural part of the process of "acceptance".

This is fun but perhaps irrelevant after all. My question is, though, do you think that somehow the dark night is the logical grief that overcomes you when you realized that the arising and passing is gone? We do know that these stages are uncannily common among spiritual experiences, and that our brain, the nature of existence, or however you put it seems to work that way no matter what. The fractal nature of the insight cycles also easily comes to mind. Doesn't it makes sense that grief and dark night share so many traits because they are the representation of the same process, just on an espiritual level? This might just be the way humans cope with loss, of an inexplicabily good experience in this case (A&P), and that we need to go through denial (recognice that we are not as spiritually developed as we though); anger (because we realize); bargaining (yeah but at least I had the A&P right, so it's not that bad?); depression (yeah, but I can't go back there, it's gone, and I am here with my worldly pain); and finally acceptance (yes, desire to end with this, re-observation; equanimity hopefully).

Not sure of the implications of this, but it makes sense to me. Perhaps some of the psicological techniques used to deal with grief will also be helpful to deal with the mundane effects of the dark night?

Thoughs? emoticon

Daniel M.

RE: Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of gri
Answer
6/16/16 4:40 PM as a reply to Daniel Mon.


insight's "dissolution" and grief's "denial" share many of the same characteristics.

"fear" and "anger" are intimately bond;

"misery" souds like the perfect scenario for emotional "bargaining"

"depression" and "disgust" go hand on hand most times. 


Frankly, I don't think these correspondences make sense. They do not match at all the way I experience the nanas. Have you gone through the dukkha nanas at least once already?

If I had to try correspondences, they would be:


GRIEF           NANA
1. Denial       ???
2. anger        8. Disgust
3. bargaining   9. Desire for deliverance
4. depression   7. Misery or 5. Dissolution
5. acceptance   11. Equanimity




So while corresponces might be attempted, the order does not seem to be compatible.

RE: Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of gri
Answer
6/16/16 5:12 PM as a reply to Daniel Mon.
Daniel Mon:
The six stages of the Dark Night, according to Daniel Ingram's book, are:
  1. Dissolution,
  2. fear,
  3. missery,
  4. disgust,
  5. desire for deliverance,
  6. re-observation.
The five stages of grief, according to the popular [url=]Kübler-Ross model, are:
  1. Denial,
  2. anger,
  3. bargaining,
  4. depression,
  5. acceptance. 
On first sight these more or less random terms do not seem very similar. Additionaly in one system there are five stages and in the other there are six. However,  we all acknowledge that these stages are more or less arbitrary boundaries for a continuous process, and that the one or two words used to define them are necessarily limiting and subjective.

With that in mind, I can see how insight's "dissolution" and grief's "denial" share many of the same characteristics. In my experience, "fear" and "anger" are intimately bond; "misery" souds like the perfect scenario for emotional "bargaining"; and "depression" and "disgust" go hand on hand most times. Finally, "desire for deliverance" and "re-observation" can be viewed as a natural part of the process of "acceptance".

This is fun but perhaps irrelevant after all. My question is, though, do you think that somehow the dark night is the logical grief that overcomes you when you realized that the arising and passing is gone? We do know that these stages are uncannily common among spiritual experiences, and that our brain, the nature of existence, or however you put it seems to work that way no matter what. The fractal nature of the insight cycles also easily comes to mind. Doesn't it makes sense that grief and dark night share so many traits because they are the representation of the same process, just on an espiritual level? This might just be the way humans cope with loss, of an inexplicabily good experience in this case (A&P), and that we need to go through denial (recognice that we are not as spiritually developed as we though); anger (because we realize); bargaining (yeah but at least I had the A&P right, so it's not that bad?); depression (yeah, but I can't go back there, it's gone, and I am here with my worldly pain); and finally acceptance (yes, desire to end with this, re-observation; equanimity hopefully).

Not sure of the implications of this, but it makes sense to me. Perhaps some of the psicological techniques used to deal with grief will also be helpful to deal with the mundane effects of the dark night?

Thoughs? emoticon

Daniel M.

I had the same idea a while back
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4415915#_19_message_4553953
Kübler-Ross came to mind on mapping her stages to the nanasStages
They seem to line up pretty good

Grief stages..................Nanas
Denial...........................Fearfulness
Anger............................Fearfulness
Depression....................Misery
....................................Disgust
Bargaining.....................Desire for Deliverance
....................................Re-observation
Acceptance...................Equanimity

If I may be so bold, couldn't the nanas stages be applied to other things as the grief stages have? What would we get if we actively investigated addiction? Obsessive compulsive disorder? etc? what would come up?
Just some random thoughts after seeing parallels.

Fun to think about
~D

I think I have experienced the dark night, in fact I would say that I feel like I've been living them most of my life, but of course I might be wrong. I guess the idea just hits you or not, this hit me while on a meditation retreat in which (I believe) I was dealing with the dark night. Cheers, Daniel M.

RE: Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of gri
Answer
7/6/16 9:34 AM as a reply to Daniel Mon.
Denial could be Dissolution (?)

RE: Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of gri
Answer
7/7/16 2:26 AM as a reply to Daniel Mon.
Daniel Mon:
The six stages of the Dark Night, according to Daniel Ingram's book, are:
  1. Dissolution,
  2. fear,
  3. missery,
  4. disgust,
  5. desire for deliverance,
  6. re-observation.
The five stages of grief, according to the popular [url=]Kübler-Ross model, are:
  1. Denial,
  2. anger,
  3. bargaining,
  4. depression,
  5. acceptance. 
I would say:

1. Denial: the aversion to the insight of no-self, that has grown unconsciously through Body & Mind up to Dissolution.
2. Anger: now you see parts of your unconscious, which you cannot control; there's no Self controlling thoughts.
3. Bargaining: ruminating thoughts of either stop meditating or straining yourself to overcome DN and reach EQ.
4. Depression: you didn't reach EQ, and so you're forced to live many times the same process until you succeed.
5. Acceptance: you became aware the atraction-aversion reactions towards Self/No-Self, and so let yourself reach EQ. 

RE: Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of gri
Answer
7/10/16 4:35 PM as a reply to Daniel Mon.
Cut yourself from largescale activities, you will have suffering, as you need still pay for the debt somehow usually its mentally, subtly. Life will go downhill fast.