Full-body bliss - Discussion
Full-body bliss
thereisnospoon, modified 8 Years ago at 7/31/16 4:45 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/31/16 1:11 AM
Full-body bliss
Posts: 23 Join Date: 11/3/15 Recent Posts
Hi, something interesting happened a few weeks ago and I don't really know what it was, so thought I'd ask the experts.
Background: First retreat in 2006, several others since, daily meditation since 2011, slightly more intensified practice (up to 3 hours/day) for perhaps 3 weeks prior to the experience I describe below.
What happened: I'd been woken up by noises and was feeling anxious and couldn't get back to sleep, so decided to try reclining meditation. Was doing body scanning like I do when sitting, and after a while noticed a mildly pleasant tingling sensation throughout the body, which I usually seem to have when reasonably well concentrated.
Totally unexpectedly, the tingling suddenly massively intensified into a huge "rush" through the whole body, felt like being launched into space - I've never experienced anything like it before. Pleasure through the whole body, buzzing/vibrating feeling, an audible "shushing" sound, all extremely blissful and joyful - without doubt the best feeling I've ever had. Better than sex, better than drugs. I felt I was finally experiencing something clearly mystical, metaphysical. It was so surprising and overwhelming that I started thinking "wow this is incredible" - then it stopped, leaving me with a big grin on my face. Probably lasted less than a minute.
A week later, under similar circumstances it occurred again, but this time I was able to stay concentrated and the "state" seemed to last for a while - I think about 15-20 minutes, but hard to say. Same level of intensity, but after maybe 15 minutes there was a strong sensation of rising above my bed and floating in the air - just a feeling, obviously! After a while I wanted to stop - it was blissful but maybe a bit too intense, and I wanted to feel "normal" again and go to sleep. For the next hour or so, the feeling kept coming back spontaneously until eventually I got to sleep.
Both times a feeling of mild sexual arousal appeared a little while after the experience ceased.
In ten years of meditating this is the weirdest thing that's happened; the rest has been mundane.
Was this experience anything useful or significant, or just one of those things, something I shouldn't get excited about?
Background: First retreat in 2006, several others since, daily meditation since 2011, slightly more intensified practice (up to 3 hours/day) for perhaps 3 weeks prior to the experience I describe below.
What happened: I'd been woken up by noises and was feeling anxious and couldn't get back to sleep, so decided to try reclining meditation. Was doing body scanning like I do when sitting, and after a while noticed a mildly pleasant tingling sensation throughout the body, which I usually seem to have when reasonably well concentrated.
Totally unexpectedly, the tingling suddenly massively intensified into a huge "rush" through the whole body, felt like being launched into space - I've never experienced anything like it before. Pleasure through the whole body, buzzing/vibrating feeling, an audible "shushing" sound, all extremely blissful and joyful - without doubt the best feeling I've ever had. Better than sex, better than drugs. I felt I was finally experiencing something clearly mystical, metaphysical. It was so surprising and overwhelming that I started thinking "wow this is incredible" - then it stopped, leaving me with a big grin on my face. Probably lasted less than a minute.
A week later, under similar circumstances it occurred again, but this time I was able to stay concentrated and the "state" seemed to last for a while - I think about 15-20 minutes, but hard to say. Same level of intensity, but after maybe 15 minutes there was a strong sensation of rising above my bed and floating in the air - just a feeling, obviously! After a while I wanted to stop - it was blissful but maybe a bit too intense, and I wanted to feel "normal" again and go to sleep. For the next hour or so, the feeling kept coming back spontaneously until eventually I got to sleep.
Both times a feeling of mild sexual arousal appeared a little while after the experience ceased.
In ten years of meditating this is the weirdest thing that's happened; the rest has been mundane.
Was this experience anything useful or significant, or just one of those things, something I shouldn't get excited about?
neko, modified 8 Years ago at 7/31/16 4:48 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/31/16 4:48 AM
RE: Full-body bliss
Posts: 763 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
You have experienced the Knowledge of the Arising and Passing Away, roughly equivalent to Kundalini Awakening. It is the first milestone on the progress to awakening.
Most important information / warning: It is quite likely that unpleasant experiences during meditation will follow. Anxiety, restlessness, sadness, mood swings, and so on. This is known as the Dukkha Nana (knowledge of suffering), the Dark Night of the Soul, and other similarly encouraging names such as Falling into the Pit of the Void. If this happens, keep meditating. If this doesn't happen, keep meditating.
What it is:
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/The+Arising+and+Passing+Away
https://alohadharma.com/2011/06/04/the-ap/
Second important information: However pleasant it was, trying to have this even repeat is not the right thing to do. As in: You probably will not succeed and/or you will stagnate and/or you will be going in directions that are not particularly useful. You will find much more information in this book, particularly on the difference between concentration / samadhi / samatha / jhana vs. insight / mindfulness / sati / vipassana / panna.
http://integrateddaniel.info/book/
Most important information / warning: It is quite likely that unpleasant experiences during meditation will follow. Anxiety, restlessness, sadness, mood swings, and so on. This is known as the Dukkha Nana (knowledge of suffering), the Dark Night of the Soul, and other similarly encouraging names such as Falling into the Pit of the Void. If this happens, keep meditating. If this doesn't happen, keep meditating.
What it is:
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/The+Arising+and+Passing+Away
https://alohadharma.com/2011/06/04/the-ap/
Second important information: However pleasant it was, trying to have this even repeat is not the right thing to do. As in: You probably will not succeed and/or you will stagnate and/or you will be going in directions that are not particularly useful. You will find much more information in this book, particularly on the difference between concentration / samadhi / samatha / jhana vs. insight / mindfulness / sati / vipassana / panna.
http://integrateddaniel.info/book/
Stick Man, modified 8 Years ago at 7/31/16 7:36 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/31/16 7:29 AM
RE: Full-body bliss
Posts: 396 Join Date: 9/23/14 Recent Posts
But isn't it a useful experience worth repeating ?
I've been reading up on the therapeutic use of psychedelics, and in many cases the therapeutic experience seems identical to the blissfully trascendent aspect of A&P. For instance looking tere seem to be a few experiments past and present in which several doses of psilocybin are administered. It may be interesting to see whether the blissfull A&P experience is being induced and repeated in these experiments and what the value of repeat experience is vs one-time-only ?
Buddhism isn't a materialist philosophy so I don't know if holds brain events to be really causal to experience.
But if I was to ask a neuroscientist anyway, I would ask them why the brains of buddhist meditators tends to produce this event once only, or in limited numbers, and if there is a permanent brain change which prohibits repeat ?
Or whether it is just an aspect of the training approach and non-attachment attitude which is the limiting factor.
Your thoughts ?
That's a very nice summary on alohadamra, BTW, thanks.
I've been reading up on the therapeutic use of psychedelics, and in many cases the therapeutic experience seems identical to the blissfully trascendent aspect of A&P. For instance looking tere seem to be a few experiments past and present in which several doses of psilocybin are administered. It may be interesting to see whether the blissfull A&P experience is being induced and repeated in these experiments and what the value of repeat experience is vs one-time-only ?
Buddhism isn't a materialist philosophy so I don't know if holds brain events to be really causal to experience.
But if I was to ask a neuroscientist anyway, I would ask them why the brains of buddhist meditators tends to produce this event once only, or in limited numbers, and if there is a permanent brain change which prohibits repeat ?
Or whether it is just an aspect of the training approach and non-attachment attitude which is the limiting factor.
Your thoughts ?
That's a very nice summary on alohadamra, BTW, thanks.
neko, modified 8 Years ago at 7/31/16 9:51 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/31/16 9:51 AM
RE: Full-body bliss
Posts: 763 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
The A&P can be repeated, but it takes skill.
Someone before stream entry will probably just wind up in 1st / 2nd jhana. Nothing wrong with jhana, as long as one knows that he is doing jhana
Someone before stream entry will probably just wind up in 1st / 2nd jhana. Nothing wrong with jhana, as long as one knows that he is doing jhana

Stick Man, modified 8 Years ago at 7/31/16 3:30 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/31/16 3:30 PM
RE: Full-body bliss
Posts: 396 Join Date: 9/23/14 Recent Postsneko:
The A&P can be repeated, but it takes skill.
Someone before stream entry will probably just wind up in 1st / 2nd jhana. Nothing wrong with jhana, as long as one knows that he is doing jhana
Someone before stream entry will probably just wind up in 1st / 2nd jhana. Nothing wrong with jhana, as long as one knows that he is doing jhana

Hmm. Has anyone actually done a study or survey on this ? It looks like a lot of hard work googling because the experience goes by so many different names. It wouldn't surprise me, though, if psychedelic users regularly visited the territory and more frequently than meditators.
thereisnospoon, modified 8 Years ago at 8/1/16 1:21 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/1/16 1:10 AM
RE: Full-body bliss
Posts: 23 Join Date: 11/3/15 Recent Posts
Thanks very much Neko, I hadn't looked at the "roadmaps" for a while, but that description on alohadharma.com seems pretty close to what I experienced.
Yet I didn't have a manic phase after the experience (aside from wanting to tell everyone!), and meditation has not now become effortless, as the description claims. Quite the contrary - for the last couple of weeks I've actually been seriously thinking about giving up the whole Buddhist thing because (despite ten years of practice) I can't even manage a very basic level of concentration now! And I have a sense of complete and utter nothingness in everyday life, sometimes accompanied by a panicky feeling that I need to find SOMETHING to do, to absorb into something rewarding, yet nothing holds any interest for me. I was thinking that meditation had sent me into a depression.
But could this possibly be the "dark night" underway? Before I even had a chance to enjoy the fruits of the A&P (if that's what it was)?
If I can really pin these experiences to milestones on the path, then that would give a huge boost in motivation. For years I've been thinking I was getting absolutely nowhere with my practice, and starting to have strong doubt both in my own ability and the path itself.
Yet I didn't have a manic phase after the experience (aside from wanting to tell everyone!), and meditation has not now become effortless, as the description claims. Quite the contrary - for the last couple of weeks I've actually been seriously thinking about giving up the whole Buddhist thing because (despite ten years of practice) I can't even manage a very basic level of concentration now! And I have a sense of complete and utter nothingness in everyday life, sometimes accompanied by a panicky feeling that I need to find SOMETHING to do, to absorb into something rewarding, yet nothing holds any interest for me. I was thinking that meditation had sent me into a depression.
But could this possibly be the "dark night" underway? Before I even had a chance to enjoy the fruits of the A&P (if that's what it was)?
If I can really pin these experiences to milestones on the path, then that would give a huge boost in motivation. For years I've been thinking I was getting absolutely nowhere with my practice, and starting to have strong doubt both in my own ability and the path itself.
tom moylan, modified 8 Years ago at 8/1/16 5:50 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/1/16 5:48 AM
RE: Full-body bliss
Posts: 896 Join Date: 3/7/11 Recent Posts
howdy
neko is right on. A&P, as a stage, can be had, and in fact WILL be had with almost every sit until a cycle of insight is completed. the first time one encounters this it can, as in your case, be an extraordinary piece of sugar on the way to enlightenment. because we like good stuff it helps us stay motivated.
as mentioned above, the following stages are anything but enjoyable. rather than to script yourself into thinking that pain must follow pleasure, i prefer to think of the next stages as "interesting and worth investigation". they are really interesting and developing a kind of "meta-perspective" can help keep you above the fray of emotional intensity that they can generaate. noting helps do that.
it sounds like your path is consistent and long, which IMO is good and tends to less dramatic dark night effects. this is something which differentiates Culadasa's approach with straight up, full gas vipassana which has been my major practice style since finding this place years ago.
the only thing to fear is lust itself! while that may not be the original quote, the meaning is that while the A&P can be extraordinarily pleasant, it isn't the pleasantness that should be the overriding goal of practice.
pleasure is fantastic for deepening jhana and is in fact necessary to it. progress in insight though, requires noticing that the pleasant states come and go and are conditioned and should not be clung to, then moving on.
being able to reach pleasant states at will is a really awesome talent though and as opined above is a skill which should be developed on the jhanic side and simply noticed but not encouraged on the vipassana side.
congratulations and have fun.
edit: PS, the next wonderful piece of sugar is equanimity. its even nicer
neko is right on. A&P, as a stage, can be had, and in fact WILL be had with almost every sit until a cycle of insight is completed. the first time one encounters this it can, as in your case, be an extraordinary piece of sugar on the way to enlightenment. because we like good stuff it helps us stay motivated.
as mentioned above, the following stages are anything but enjoyable. rather than to script yourself into thinking that pain must follow pleasure, i prefer to think of the next stages as "interesting and worth investigation". they are really interesting and developing a kind of "meta-perspective" can help keep you above the fray of emotional intensity that they can generaate. noting helps do that.
it sounds like your path is consistent and long, which IMO is good and tends to less dramatic dark night effects. this is something which differentiates Culadasa's approach with straight up, full gas vipassana which has been my major practice style since finding this place years ago.
the only thing to fear is lust itself! while that may not be the original quote, the meaning is that while the A&P can be extraordinarily pleasant, it isn't the pleasantness that should be the overriding goal of practice.
pleasure is fantastic for deepening jhana and is in fact necessary to it. progress in insight though, requires noticing that the pleasant states come and go and are conditioned and should not be clung to, then moving on.
being able to reach pleasant states at will is a really awesome talent though and as opined above is a skill which should be developed on the jhanic side and simply noticed but not encouraged on the vipassana side.
congratulations and have fun.
edit: PS, the next wonderful piece of sugar is equanimity. its even nicer
neko, modified 8 Years ago at 8/1/16 8:27 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/1/16 8:27 AM
RE: Full-body bliss
Posts: 763 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Poststhereisnospoon:
I can't even manage a very basic level of concentration now! And I have a sense of complete and utter nothingness in everyday life
thereisnospoon:
sometimes accompanied by a panicky feeling
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+6.+Fear
thereisnospoon:
yet nothing holds any interest for me. I was thinking that meditation had sent me into a depression.
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+7.+Misery