Mo's practice log - Discussion
Date: 11/10/2016 Evening sit
Length of Sit: 1 hour 5 min sit
Posture: Cross legged
Meditative techniques:sit – 30 min follow breath, 35 min silent noting
Dynamics:
30 minutes follow breath
Started by relaxing and just sitting.
Started to count breaths and kept losing count.
Could not complete 3 counts of ten even when the bell sounded. I wonder if this is because I have changed my technique recently as for the last 6/7 months I have only spent 5 minutes on concentration and the rest of the hour on out loud choiceless noting.
I'm embarrassed at how bad my concentration is. Felt doubts and worry about it.
35 minutes silent noting
When I'm sitting I tell myself to remember to log this feeling or that sensation but I can never remember the details of my my sit well enough.
I wonder if could stop the meditation and make a quick note.
Towards the end of the sit I decided to limit my noting to just bodily sensations, and see if I could just experience them as sensations and nothing else. This also worked in that I could concentrate better and not worry about noting the other senses(hearing, seeing, thinking).
It kind of worked in that I flet disembedded and not caught up in them.
It also seemed to be more effective when I reminded myself to do it.
I must try to see if I can take the same tack with thoughts and mindstates but must be much harder to do.
I also saw that these sensations were not "me", they were just sensations happening without me doing anything.
Again towards the end the aches, tightness, stiffness and tensions were getting stronger but seemed like I could watch it all happening, changing, morphing, and moving. Although I wonder if I extended the sit and the pain got more intense if I could still handle it.
I have a 10 day Goenka retreat planned for November, which I'm kind of looking forward to and also worried about, because of all the hard work that's gonna be involved. Although knowing there's a retreat coming has been great in getting me focused.
Length of Sit: 1 hour 5 min sit
Posture: Cross legged
Meditative techniques:sit – 30 min follow breath, 35 min silent noting
Dynamics:
30 minutes follow breath
Started by relaxing and just sitting.
Started to count breaths and kept losing count.
Could not complete 3 counts of ten even when the bell sounded. I wonder if this is because I have changed my technique recently as for the last 6/7 months I have only spent 5 minutes on concentration and the rest of the hour on out loud choiceless noting.
I'm embarrassed at how bad my concentration is. Felt doubts and worry about it.
35 minutes silent noting
When I'm sitting I tell myself to remember to log this feeling or that sensation but I can never remember the details of my my sit well enough.
I wonder if could stop the meditation and make a quick note.
Towards the end of the sit I decided to limit my noting to just bodily sensations, and see if I could just experience them as sensations and nothing else. This also worked in that I could concentrate better and not worry about noting the other senses(hearing, seeing, thinking).
It kind of worked in that I flet disembedded and not caught up in them.
It also seemed to be more effective when I reminded myself to do it.
I must try to see if I can take the same tack with thoughts and mindstates but must be much harder to do.
I also saw that these sensations were not "me", they were just sensations happening without me doing anything.
Again towards the end the aches, tightness, stiffness and tensions were getting stronger but seemed like I could watch it all happening, changing, morphing, and moving. Although I wonder if I extended the sit and the pain got more intense if I could still handle it.
I have a 10 day Goenka retreat planned for November, which I'm kind of looking forward to and also worried about, because of all the hard work that's gonna be involved. Although knowing there's a retreat coming has been great in getting me focused.
Date: 13/10/2016 evening
Length of Sit: 1 hour 5 min sit
Posture: Cross legged
Meditative techniques: Follow breath
Dynamics:
Have decided to drop the noting and just concentrate on following the breath at the nostrils entrance area and see where it takes me.
Kind of going back to basics.
Took at least the first 10/15 minutes to relax and watch the attention bounce between nose, thoughts and body. Thereafter started to feel body sensations more and attention started to get stabler and less jumpy while nose area became more and more sensitive. This continued and sensations in the hands and lower arms started to get stronger and took my attention.
Also had some mind wandering, and worry about timer thoughts got so strong that I doubted that the timer was working properly to the point where I stopped the meditation to check, and it turned out that there was nothing wrong with the timer.
I think it may have been boredom and some sort of aversion and craving.
I carried on.
Then experienced sensitivity and tingling on forehead.
Then experienced pain in lower back, itching, and pain and aches moved up to shoulders which became cool.
A section where I was at a lost as to what to look at. It seemed like I was expecting something to happen and waiting.
The last 15 minutes was interesting as there was lots of spacing out and drifting off but never sleepy. It wasn't particulalrly pleasant nor unpleasant. I caught myself a couple times thinking "Oh yeah I'm suppose to be meditating".
Length of Sit: 1 hour 5 min sit
Posture: Cross legged
Meditative techniques: Follow breath
Dynamics:
Have decided to drop the noting and just concentrate on following the breath at the nostrils entrance area and see where it takes me.
Kind of going back to basics.
Took at least the first 10/15 minutes to relax and watch the attention bounce between nose, thoughts and body. Thereafter started to feel body sensations more and attention started to get stabler and less jumpy while nose area became more and more sensitive. This continued and sensations in the hands and lower arms started to get stronger and took my attention.
Also had some mind wandering, and worry about timer thoughts got so strong that I doubted that the timer was working properly to the point where I stopped the meditation to check, and it turned out that there was nothing wrong with the timer.
I think it may have been boredom and some sort of aversion and craving.
I carried on.
Then experienced sensitivity and tingling on forehead.
Then experienced pain in lower back, itching, and pain and aches moved up to shoulders which became cool.
A section where I was at a lost as to what to look at. It seemed like I was expecting something to happen and waiting.
The last 15 minutes was interesting as there was lots of spacing out and drifting off but never sleepy. It wasn't particulalrly pleasant nor unpleasant. I caught myself a couple times thinking "Oh yeah I'm suppose to be meditating".
Date: 19/10/2016 Morning
Length of Sit: 65 minutes
Posture: Cross legged
Meditative techniques: Sit still, follow breath at the nostril
Dynamics:
0 to 30 minutes
Just sit, relax and feel the body.
A general feeling of doubt, uneasiness, being lost, and needing something to do.
It's quite unerving to just sit and not have any agenda.
After about 15 minutes, started to gaze down at the nose and visualize the nostril in order to help concentration on the feeling of air brushing past my nostril.
Quite difficult to do at first, certainly not as easy as it was the last sit, but maybe because I had not sat for long.
Started to feel headachy feeling in between the eyes, not sure if this is because my eyes are looking down and maybe going a bit crosseyed.
30 to 65 minutes
Continued with concentrating on feeling air brushing past nostril aided by visualizing.
I noticed the difference between just watching the breathing and visualizing my nostril and feeling the air brushing past skin.
When just watching the breathing part of my attention was able to think about other stuff, but when I visualize my nostril and tried to feel the actual sensation of air on skin, it seemed like there was no room for my mind to think about other stuff.
It reminded me of Nikolai's comments(http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.co.uk/#!/2011/12/yogi-toobox-anapanasati-sutta.html) about engaging "the mind's proliferating tendency by giving it more things to pay attention to as opposed to just the breath", like using up 100% of your processing power rather than just 40% or 50%.
It's quite difficult to see the difference at first but once I tried this I could definitely notice a difference.
It was also difficult to keep the visualization and feeling of air on skin going for any lenght of time, had to remind myself and keep coming back to it, which made me realize actually how much mind wandering and generally not being fully present was happening.
It was good to have this solid anchor (visualizing nose/feeling air on skin) to come back to, when I felt swamped with thoughts, images, mindstates, and feelings, especially during the current sits where things are starting to get unstable, and a general feeling of being lost.
Length of Sit: 65 minutes
Posture: Cross legged
Meditative techniques: Sit still, follow breath at the nostril
Dynamics:
0 to 30 minutes
Just sit, relax and feel the body.
A general feeling of doubt, uneasiness, being lost, and needing something to do.
It's quite unerving to just sit and not have any agenda.
After about 15 minutes, started to gaze down at the nose and visualize the nostril in order to help concentration on the feeling of air brushing past my nostril.
Quite difficult to do at first, certainly not as easy as it was the last sit, but maybe because I had not sat for long.
Started to feel headachy feeling in between the eyes, not sure if this is because my eyes are looking down and maybe going a bit crosseyed
. 30 to 65 minutes
Continued with concentrating on feeling air brushing past nostril aided by visualizing.
I noticed the difference between just watching the breathing and visualizing my nostril and feeling the air brushing past skin.
When just watching the breathing part of my attention was able to think about other stuff, but when I visualize my nostril and tried to feel the actual sensation of air on skin, it seemed like there was no room for my mind to think about other stuff.
It reminded me of Nikolai's comments(http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.co.uk/#!/2011/12/yogi-toobox-anapanasati-sutta.html) about engaging "the mind's proliferating tendency by giving it more things to pay attention to as opposed to just the breath", like using up 100% of your processing power rather than just 40% or 50%.
It's quite difficult to see the difference at first but once I tried this I could definitely notice a difference.
It was also difficult to keep the visualization and feeling of air on skin going for any lenght of time, had to remind myself and keep coming back to it, which made me realize actually how much mind wandering and generally not being fully present was happening.
It was good to have this solid anchor (visualizing nose/feeling air on skin) to come back to, when I felt swamped with thoughts, images, mindstates, and feelings, especially during the current sits where things are starting to get unstable, and a general feeling of being lost.
shargrol:
Really awesome Mo!
Building the instinctual act of "coming back" to the meditation object/anchor without creating a lot of extra drama (i.e., simply starting again, without judging if you are a good meditator or not or whether practice is working or not)...and grounding emotions/thoughts by going to the body and experiencing body sensations along with the thoughts are the two basic skills that take you all the way.
Building the instinctual act of "coming back" to the meditation object/anchor without creating a lot of extra drama (i.e., simply starting again, without judging if you are a good meditator or not or whether practice is working or not)...and grounding emotions/thoughts by going to the body and experiencing body sensations along with the thoughts are the two basic skills that take you all the way.
Date: 23/10/2016 Morning
Length of Sit: 90 minutes
Posture: Cross legged
Meditative techniques: Sit still, follow breath, noticing
Dynamics:
0 to 30minutes
Worry, doubts, sadness, about meditation, difficulty following the breath, mindwandering, stories and drifting off.
Body sensations came into attention a bit more.
Inability to extract myself from the negativity.
Sleepyness and tiredness.
30 to 60minutes
Sleepyness and tiredness continued, apathy, hopelessness and feeling of uselessness followed.
Fellings of wallowing and completely immersed in all these emotions.
Tried some silent noting and saw how it helped to lift me out of identifying with the emotions and feelings.
The negativity slowed down and didn't seem to affect the sit as much when I noted.
Still couldn't follow breath.
Body sensations became more prominant.
As I couldn't follow breath I stayed with body sensations for a while, there was a light overall buzzing more noticable in certain areas.
60 to 90minutes
As I continued to note, my noting shifted on it's own and started to ask "who is noting this thought, emotion, sensation etc?" and then shifted to "what is this awareness that is aware of this thought, emotion, sensation etc?".
So I was focusing my attention not at the sensations, thought, feeling but at the awareness of the phenomenon that was occuring.
So with everything that was happening there seemed to be two layers, the phenomenon and the awareness of the phenomemon.
But then also it suddenly occurred that there must be something else that "is aware of the awareness of the phenomenon?".
This last question was very slippery to see if it was there at all, so I'm not sure.
It reminded of the dog chasing it's tail, or snake eating it's tail.
This act of looking at awareness itself was quite calming as it didn't seemed to be affected by the thing it was perceiving so if there was a pain, by looking at the awareness of the pain, the pain itself didn't seem to be that bad.
Mind you I don't know if this would work if there was really strong pain, or overwhelming negativity.
An interesting sit in how it started quite negative, and finished at a completely different place.
Length of Sit: 90 minutes
Posture: Cross legged
Meditative techniques: Sit still, follow breath, noticing
Dynamics:
0 to 30minutes
Worry, doubts, sadness, about meditation, difficulty following the breath, mindwandering, stories and drifting off.
Body sensations came into attention a bit more.
Inability to extract myself from the negativity.
Sleepyness and tiredness.
30 to 60minutes
Sleepyness and tiredness continued, apathy, hopelessness and feeling of uselessness followed.
Fellings of wallowing and completely immersed in all these emotions.
Tried some silent noting and saw how it helped to lift me out of identifying with the emotions and feelings.
The negativity slowed down and didn't seem to affect the sit as much when I noted.
Still couldn't follow breath.
Body sensations became more prominant.
As I couldn't follow breath I stayed with body sensations for a while, there was a light overall buzzing more noticable in certain areas.
60 to 90minutes
As I continued to note, my noting shifted on it's own and started to ask "who is noting this thought, emotion, sensation etc?" and then shifted to "what is this awareness that is aware of this thought, emotion, sensation etc?".
So I was focusing my attention not at the sensations, thought, feeling but at the awareness of the phenomenon that was occuring.
So with everything that was happening there seemed to be two layers, the phenomenon and the awareness of the phenomemon.
But then also it suddenly occurred that there must be something else that "is aware of the awareness of the phenomenon?".
This last question was very slippery to see if it was there at all, so I'm not sure.
It reminded of the dog chasing it's tail, or snake eating it's tail.
This act of looking at awareness itself was quite calming as it didn't seemed to be affected by the thing it was perceiving so if there was a pain, by looking at the awareness of the pain, the pain itself didn't seem to be that bad.
Mind you I don't know if this would work if there was really strong pain, or overwhelming negativity.
An interesting sit in how it started quite negative, and finished at a completely different place.
Usually when things seem "worse" but you have been practicing consistently, it means that you are working on a new layer of subtlety. It's actually a good sign.
Good luck on retreat. Probably the main recommendation I have is not to be "seduced" by new experiences caused by the increase in concentration that will happen on retreat. Both "rapture" and things feeling "worse" will probably be stronger. It doesn't matter. Keep a consistent practice and balance your energy -- not pushing too hard, not being lazy. Just consistently practice.
Read about Equanimity and Stream Entry. Equanimity is one of the hardest stages because it involves continuing to note and investigate when things already seem clear and open and simple and plain. Frankly, it can feel like you have never meditated before and are a beginner all over again. When you experience that, be sure to note clearness, openness, simplicity, plain-ness, etc.
A&P and Reobservation can also become very strong on retreat. Again, don't be seduced by big experiences of light and bliss, but definitely enjoy them when they happen! Likewise, if it seems that you are doing everything wrong and the retreat is a failure, note "thoughts of failure" "feeling of doing things wrong". It's just more thoughts and feelings to note.
You may have moments when you can "look at thoughts" or "look at the mindstream". Those are very interesting. See if you can see where thoughts and the mind begins. This is the early stage of High Equanimity.
When you come out of that concentrated state of looking at thoughts, continue to stay curious about normal experience. How does the experience of this moment happen?
The rules are the same on retreat as in home practice: practice consistently, when things get challenging note the experience of the challenge, and balance your energy so that you stay curious/interested but don't burn out from "seeking" too hard.
Best wishes!
Good luck on retreat. Probably the main recommendation I have is not to be "seduced" by new experiences caused by the increase in concentration that will happen on retreat. Both "rapture" and things feeling "worse" will probably be stronger. It doesn't matter. Keep a consistent practice and balance your energy -- not pushing too hard, not being lazy. Just consistently practice.
Read about Equanimity and Stream Entry. Equanimity is one of the hardest stages because it involves continuing to note and investigate when things already seem clear and open and simple and plain. Frankly, it can feel like you have never meditated before and are a beginner all over again. When you experience that, be sure to note clearness, openness, simplicity, plain-ness, etc.
A&P and Reobservation can also become very strong on retreat. Again, don't be seduced by big experiences of light and bliss, but definitely enjoy them when they happen!
Likewise, if it seems that you are doing everything wrong and the retreat is a failure, note "thoughts of failure" "feeling of doing things wrong". It's just more thoughts and feelings to note. You may have moments when you can "look at thoughts" or "look at the mindstream". Those are very interesting. See if you can see where thoughts and the mind begins. This is the early stage of High Equanimity.
When you come out of that concentrated state of looking at thoughts, continue to stay curious about normal experience. How does the experience of this moment happen?
The rules are the same on retreat as in home practice: practice consistently, when things get challenging note the experience of the challenge, and balance your energy so that you stay curious/interested but don't burn out from "seeking" too hard.
Best wishes!
shargrol:
Usually when things seem "worse" but you have been practicing consistently, it means that you are working on a new layer of subtlety. It's actually a good sign.
Good luck on retreat. Probably the main recommendation I have is not to be "seduced" by new experiences caused by the increase in concentration that will happen on retreat. Both "rapture" and things feeling "worse" will probably be stronger. It doesn't matter. Keep a consistent practice and balance your energy -- not pushing too hard, not being lazy. Just consistently practice.
Read about Equanimity and Stream Entry. Equanimity is one of the hardest stages because it involves continuing to note and investigate when things already seem clear and open and simple and plain. Frankly, it can feel like you have never meditated before and are a beginner all over again. When you experience that, be sure to note clearness, openness, simplicity, plain-ness, etc.
A&P and Reobservation can also become very strong on retreat. Again, don't be seduced by big experiences of light and bliss, but definitely enjoy them when they happen! Likewise, if it seems that you are doing everything wrong and the retreat is a failure, note "thoughts of failure" "feeling of doing things wrong". It's just more thoughts and feelings to note.
You may have moments when you can "look at thoughts" or "look at the mindstream". Those are very interesting. See if you can see where thoughts and the mind begins. This is the early stage of High Equanimity.
When you come out of that concentrated state of looking at thoughts, continue to stay curious about normal experience. How does the experience of this moment happen?
The rules are the same on retreat as in home practice: practice consistently, when things get challenging note the experience of the challenge, and balance your energy so that you stay curious/interested but don't burn out from "seeking" too hard.
Best wishes!
Good luck on retreat. Probably the main recommendation I have is not to be "seduced" by new experiences caused by the increase in concentration that will happen on retreat. Both "rapture" and things feeling "worse" will probably be stronger. It doesn't matter. Keep a consistent practice and balance your energy -- not pushing too hard, not being lazy. Just consistently practice.
Read about Equanimity and Stream Entry. Equanimity is one of the hardest stages because it involves continuing to note and investigate when things already seem clear and open and simple and plain. Frankly, it can feel like you have never meditated before and are a beginner all over again. When you experience that, be sure to note clearness, openness, simplicity, plain-ness, etc.
A&P and Reobservation can also become very strong on retreat. Again, don't be seduced by big experiences of light and bliss, but definitely enjoy them when they happen!
Likewise, if it seems that you are doing everything wrong and the retreat is a failure, note "thoughts of failure" "feeling of doing things wrong". It's just more thoughts and feelings to note. You may have moments when you can "look at thoughts" or "look at the mindstream". Those are very interesting. See if you can see where thoughts and the mind begins. This is the early stage of High Equanimity.
When you come out of that concentrated state of looking at thoughts, continue to stay curious about normal experience. How does the experience of this moment happen?
The rules are the same on retreat as in home practice: practice consistently, when things get challenging note the experience of the challenge, and balance your energy so that you stay curious/interested but don't burn out from "seeking" too hard.
Best wishes!
Sounds a bit like reobservation. Basically use noting to objectify all the ways meditation seems to throw up roadblocks (these come from your post):
agitation
restlessness
doubting
indecision
confusion
craving
expectation
frustration
wanting
trying
avoiding
controlling
investigating
frustration
This can be no big deal if you take those "problems" and turn them into notes!
agitation
restlessness
doubting
indecision
confusion
craving
expectation
frustration
wanting
trying
avoiding
controlling
investigating
frustration
This can be no big deal if you take those "problems" and turn them into notes!
shargrol:
Sounds a bit like reobservation. Basically use noting to objectify all the ways meditation seems to throw up roadblocks (these come from your post):
agitation
restlessness
doubting
indecision
confusion
craving
expectation
frustration
wanting
trying
avoiding
controlling
investigating
frustration
This can be no big deal if you take those "problems" and turn them into notes!
agitation
restlessness
doubting
indecision
confusion
craving
expectation
frustration
wanting
trying
avoiding
controlling
investigating
frustration
This can be no big deal if you take those "problems" and turn them into notes!
I have tried one word noting and it just seems clumsy, almost like picking up needles with boxing gloves, if that makes any sense.
So I do a that, that, that, etc type of noting in between the forgetting and stories.
It still feels like I'm embedded in it.
I'll see how it goes tomorrow.
Your very welcome!
Frankly, I'm glad all of this came up prior to your retreat. The hardest thing on retreat is when our minds get frustrated by doubts, confusion, feelings of bad practice, etc. That negative self-judgement can really mess up a good retreat. I'm so glad you are experimenting with acceptance and metta and compassion -- it really is the key to everything. No joke.
When things get really difficult, it can be helpful to combine noting with acceptance. The pace is much much slower. Maybe 2 or 3 notes a minute. Noting frustration and letting yourself feel it and accepting it, noting doubt and accepting it, etc. etc. Sometimes I treat these mind in a very objective sense: "oh, look at it doubting, look at it feeling frustration, look at it trying too hard, look at it struggling."
Basically, you're watching the mind rewire itself. It's learning what is helpful and not helpful by a sort of trial and error process that happens in the kinda dream-space of meditation. I say dream space because we have all of these memories and judgements and habitual patterns that just arise out of nothing while we're doing nothing but sitting on a cushion! It's almost like lucid dreaming.
So ultimately it's good that "negative" states come up during sits. If they can be met with some level of objectivity and acceptance, we learn from it and our unhelpful habits get rewired. Soon it feels less like work and more like purification -- all of the these problematic sensations and thoughts bubbling up, off gassing, and passing.
Frankly, I'm glad all of this came up prior to your retreat. The hardest thing on retreat is when our minds get frustrated by doubts, confusion, feelings of bad practice, etc. That negative self-judgement can really mess up a good retreat. I'm so glad you are experimenting with acceptance and metta and compassion -- it really is the key to everything. No joke.
When things get really difficult, it can be helpful to combine noting with acceptance. The pace is much much slower. Maybe 2 or 3 notes a minute. Noting frustration and letting yourself feel it and accepting it, noting doubt and accepting it, etc. etc. Sometimes I treat these mind in a very objective sense: "oh, look at it doubting, look at it feeling frustration, look at it trying too hard, look at it struggling."
Basically, you're watching the mind rewire itself. It's learning what is helpful and not helpful by a sort of trial and error process that happens in the kinda dream-space of meditation. I say dream space because we have all of these memories and judgements and habitual patterns that just arise out of nothing while we're doing nothing but sitting on a cushion!
It's almost like lucid dreaming.So ultimately it's good that "negative" states come up during sits. If they can be met with some level of objectivity and acceptance, we learn from it and our unhelpful habits get rewired. Soon it feels less like work and more like purification -- all of the these problematic sensations and thoughts bubbling up, off gassing, and passing.
Frankly, I'm glad all of this came up prior to your retreat. The hardest thing on retreat is when our minds get frustrated by doubts, confusion, feelings of bad practice, etc. That negative self-judgement can really mess up a good retreat. I'm so glad you are experimenting with acceptance and metta and compassion -- it really is the key to everything. No joke.
Let's hope that when things get hairy during the retreat I can use this
When things get really difficult, it can be helpful to combine noting with acceptance. The pace is much much slower. Maybe 2 or 3 notes a minute. Noting frustration and letting yourself feel it and accepting it, noting doubt and accepting it, etc. etc. Sometimes I treat these mind in a very objective sense: "oh, look at it doubting, look at it feeling frustration, look at it trying too hard, look at it struggling."
I might try that at some point.
Basically, you're watching the mind rewire itself. It's learning what is helpful and not helpful by a sort of trial and error process that happens in the kinda dream-space of meditation. I say dream space because we have all of these memories and judgements and habitual patterns that just arise out of nothing while we're doing nothing but sitting on a cushion! It's almost like lucid dreaming.
It's almost like lucid dreaming.As always your advice is much appreciated.
Sleepy is a good sign. It's like finally gettin out of crazy rush hour traffic and driving along a country road --- except it was your mind that used to be crazy rush hour and now it's your mind that is that country road. No wonder things seem calm and a little boring. Usually sleepy comes after someone is well established in meditation.
Here's a crazy fact - many people get stream entry as they appear to be nodding off into sleep. So sleepy sits are fine, make sure you don't use it as an excuse not to meditate. Just do what you can, sit a little straighter, breathe with a little more intention... but if you nod off, no big deal.
The only exception I make for myself is if it has been a really tough day at work and I nod off more than three or so times, then I quit early and go to sleep. On retreat, try to go for the record of nodding off, if that's what is happening. No big deal.
Usually sleepy comes after someone is well established in meditation.Here's a crazy fact - many people get stream entry as they appear to be nodding off into sleep. So sleepy sits are fine, make sure you don't use it as an excuse not to meditate. Just do what you can, sit a little straighter, breathe with a little more intention... but if you nod off, no big deal.
The only exception I make for myself is if it has been a really tough day at work and I nod off more than three or so times, then I quit early and go to sleep. On retreat, try to go for the record of nodding off, if that's what is happening. No big deal.
Sounds like the retreat was a lot of couch-potato-ness! Like you entered the retreat at Dissolution and stayed there Maybe too much anticipation?
It strikes me that the group guilt/shame/anxiety aspect should probably be looked into. A lot of times guilt/shame comes from a sense of needing protecting oneself. It's worth looking into why you don't feel safe --- it's probably 1/2 due to the actual situation and 1/2 due to a sense of ambiguous fear from stuff in your life.
I would say it's worth looking into all of the "roadblock" encountered on the retreat.
Maybe too much anticipation?It strikes me that the group guilt/shame/anxiety aspect should probably be looked into. A lot of times guilt/shame comes from a sense of needing protecting oneself. It's worth looking into why you don't feel safe --- it's probably 1/2 due to the actual situation and 1/2 due to a sense of ambiguous fear from stuff in your life.
I would say it's worth looking into all of the "roadblock" encountered on the retreat.
Mohan Ratnam:
I'm not sure if I should be discussing this kind of stuff here as it feels like I'm getting caught up in my own drama a bit too much and letting things run away with my worries.
Anyway this has happened during all three retreats, which is why I noticed it more during this retreat.
It's ok at the start of course as the group sits are fairly noisy and all the beginners are shifting around and making all sorts of noises.
But from the 4th/5th day onwards the strong determination sits are introduced and my fear/anxiety/worry about my breathing rises markedly as everyone tries to purposely sit still and not move and so it becomes quiet and as the days go by the beginners are getting better and better and as the stillness/quietness increases so does my fear/worry.
I have this image of the perfect meditator who doesn't make any sound.
Fear of being seen as a fake, failure, weak, useless as my breathing is so loud and everyone elses isn't.
Paranoia about everyone being aware of me breathing loudly and all eyes on me.
As everyone around me seems to be really quiet and I can't hear them.
Worry that my loud breathing is disturbing others.
Also have this craving to run out of the hall as the quietness of so many people in one place just seems so unnatural.
There's a feeling that when my breathing gets loud and noticable I feel like I'm a real person and very noticable in that big crowd and when my breathing is not noticable then I'm not there and it's ok again, almost like I'm trying to deny that I exist in that hall.
It's like I want to negate myself, because then I don't have to worry, almost like I want to escape from being stresful.
There seems to be some sort of feeling of me equating being enlightened with a negation of my problems/identity.
Even writing this is giving me a stressy vibe and the slightly sick feeling in the stomach area, and I'm not liking the feeling that I'm putting my weakness on show for all to see.
I debated for a while whether to post this or not.
Anyway this has happened during all three retreats, which is why I noticed it more during this retreat.
It's ok at the start of course as the group sits are fairly noisy and all the beginners are shifting around and making all sorts of noises.
But from the 4th/5th day onwards the strong determination sits are introduced and my fear/anxiety/worry about my breathing rises markedly as everyone tries to purposely sit still and not move and so it becomes quiet and as the days go by the beginners are getting better and better and as the stillness/quietness increases so does my fear/worry.
I have this image of the perfect meditator who doesn't make any sound.
Fear of being seen as a fake, failure, weak, useless as my breathing is so loud and everyone elses isn't.
Paranoia about everyone being aware of me breathing loudly and all eyes on me.
As everyone around me seems to be really quiet and I can't hear them.
Worry that my loud breathing is disturbing others.
Also have this craving to run out of the hall as the quietness of so many people in one place just seems so unnatural.
There's a feeling that when my breathing gets loud and noticable I feel like I'm a real person and very noticable in that big crowd and when my breathing is not noticable then I'm not there and it's ok again, almost like I'm trying to deny that I exist in that hall.
It's like I want to negate myself, because then I don't have to worry, almost like I want to escape from being stresful.
There seems to be some sort of feeling of me equating being enlightened with a negation of my problems/identity.
Even writing this is giving me a stressy vibe and the slightly sick feeling in the stomach area, and I'm not liking the feeling that I'm putting my weakness on show for all to see.
I debated for a while whether to post this or not.
Meditation brings subtle background stuff to the forefront. We see all the things that have been unclear in the past, but which strongly direct our thoughts and behavior. Making progress in meditation means dealing with this stuff, not avoiding it or trying to go around it, but facing it head-on. All of the tangible benefits of practice come from working directly with these kinds of hindrances, not through some insight that magically makes everything else get fixed.
For what it's worth, in some of the meditation text (Path of Purification) there is a description of the three broad categories of meditators. It's a generalization, but a useful tool. Usually we have one dominant pattern and then a secondary pattern that sometimes comes into play.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elana-miller-md/personality-types_b_4125852.html
It seems to me, your pattern is pretty classic "aversive" type responses. Basically, in the absense of distraction and in the openness of quiet, you instinctually take an adversarial relationship to the situation. Lots of self judgement. I can remember a classic greedy type on one of my retreats: he started breathing deeply and with a sound that allowed him to focus (like victory breathing in yoga) and got so into it -- but really was unaware how selfish and distruptive he was. (I'm sure it was 20 times worse than any noise you might have made!
) An ignorance type would zone out and not even be aware that they are on retreat. It seems like your secondary pattern is ignorance.So now the fun begins!!!
Basically, you don't try to "fix" this. You just witness it as it comes up. You feel it and you note it. Basically, you have to feel those yucky sensations with clear awareness --- and the body-mind itself will realize, "hey, this isn't helping. Why am I doing this? It doesn't help." It will eventually drop it like a hot coal. But the trick is, you have to go _through_ the experience and feel it intimately. If you avoid it or try to ignore it, the habit might be less noticable, but the next time you are in the right conditions, like on quiet retreat, it will come back again.
I'm very happy that you can see this pattern. This is what meditation is all about. See the pattern of the hindrances. Watch them and feel them. Notice how they arise on their own in the space of your mind. Notice how it comes and goes. It isn't constant. It isn't you. You are not the pattern, you are the awareness of the pattern. Sit with the mess as it occurs. Let your own natural wisdom see how they aren't helpful. It might take time, but that's why it's called practice. Let your own natural wisdom drop the unhelpful behaviors, which it will, with enough practice.
This is like training the lizard part of the mind. It takes lots of time and lots of training sessions. If there was an easier way, the buddha would have told us. Instead, he appreciated it was hard work and that we have to do ourselves.
~~"Behold, O monks, this is my last advice to you. All component things in the world are changeable. They are not lasting. Work hard to gain your own salvation."
Basically, you don't try to "fix" this. You just witness it as it comes up. You feel it and you note it. Basically, you have to feel those yucky sensations with clear awareness --- and the body-mind itself will realize, "hey, this isn't helping. Why am I doing this? It doesn't help." It will eventually drop it like a hot coal. But the trick is, you have to go _through_ the experience and feel it intimately. If you avoid it or try to ignore it, the habit might be less noticable, but the next time you are in the right conditions, like on quiet retreat, it will come back again.
Would be good to set the conditions so that I can put myself through it, but the only times I've felt it have been on retreat, so it's a shame that there aren't easier ways to recreate the conditions.
Once again thanks for your input, time and patience.
Feels like I don't really know what I'm doing.
A lack of confidence in the whole thing, and a feeling like i'm just flowing with things.
I've kind of given up on ever getting stream entry.
I'm just doing the meditation.
But as always your support and words of encouragement are mightily appreciated.
Thank you
A lack of confidence in the whole thing, and a feeling like i'm just flowing with things.
I've kind of given up on ever getting stream entry.
I'm just doing the meditation.
But as always your support and words of encouragement are mightily appreciated.
Thank you
Definitely keep going through the motions. There will occasionally be plateaus. If you stop practicing, then you just slide back away from your cutting edge. If you practice consistenly, you will move past the plateau into a new domain, a new cutting edge.
To me it sounds like you are actually finding a lot of equanimity in your sits. It can be disconcerting, because it feels like motivation is going away, but the other side of the same coin is there is probably much more contentment during the sits.
Keep balancing relaxation and investigation, calmness and curiousity. If dull, sit up a little straighter, breathe with more intention, brighten your outlook. If agitatated, frustrated, having difficulties... then relax by softening the posture, softening the breath (try sighing a little, ahh...), and remind yourself this is a long term practice so no need to force some accomplishment in a particular sit.
Be sure your "notes" include all the "lack of motivation" "spinning" "worries" "planning" "not really trying" "just sitting" etc. All of those experience are states that you can recognize. They aren't "you", they appear in you.
Even boredom and lack of motivation can be turned into an investigation. What _is_ lack-of-motivation? What are the sensations that make it up? What are the feelings of the emotions that make it recognizable as lack-of-motivation? What are the typical patterns of thoughts that go with it? Get curious about boredom and lack of motivation.
If you want to try an "inquiry" type practice, when things are flat and nothing much is happening (usually 20-30 minutes into a sit), form the intention and ask the question "Resistance?" Ask it like you are asking the universe to show you where there might be any remaining resistance in your experience. Then just sit and let the answer come. It will come as a feeling or a flash of an image or a piece of a thought. Just experience that and feel it. Let it arise, linger, and pass. When things are flat again, you can ask "Resistance?" again. Only do this three to five times in a sit. Don't turn it into a meaningless mantra.
Consistent practice!
To me it sounds like you are actually finding a lot of equanimity in your sits. It can be disconcerting, because it feels like motivation is going away, but the other side of the same coin is there is probably much more contentment during the sits.
Keep balancing relaxation and investigation, calmness and curiousity. If dull, sit up a little straighter, breathe with more intention, brighten your outlook. If agitatated, frustrated, having difficulties... then relax by softening the posture, softening the breath (try sighing a little, ahh...), and remind yourself this is a long term practice so no need to force some accomplishment in a particular sit.
Be sure your "notes" include all the "lack of motivation" "spinning" "worries" "planning" "not really trying" "just sitting" etc. All of those experience are states that you can recognize. They aren't "you", they appear in you.
Even boredom and lack of motivation can be turned into an investigation. What _is_ lack-of-motivation? What are the sensations that make it up? What are the feelings of the emotions that make it recognizable as lack-of-motivation? What are the typical patterns of thoughts that go with it? Get curious about boredom and lack of motivation.
If you want to try an "inquiry" type practice, when things are flat and nothing much is happening (usually 20-30 minutes into a sit), form the intention and ask the question "Resistance?" Ask it like you are asking the universe to show you where there might be any remaining resistance in your experience. Then just sit and let the answer come. It will come as a feeling or a flash of an image or a piece of a thought. Just experience that and feel it. Let it arise, linger, and pass. When things are flat again, you can ask "Resistance?" again. Only do this three to five times in a sit. Don't turn it into a meaningless mantra.
Consistent practice!
No worries, it's normal. But that said, once you "get it" then practice really takes off. Problems become "fuel" for practice, instead of hindering practice. You basically look for "ill will" and then investigate why it arises. You learn a lot about yourself and the way you percieve things along the way.
But that said, once you "get it" then practice really takes off. Problems become "fuel" for practice, instead of hindering practice. You basically look for "ill will" and then investigate why it arises. You learn a lot about yourself and the way you percieve things along the way.
Perfect.
Totally normal to get aversion. Totally normal to groove on body sensations. The secret is to note that this is what awareness is doing, so note "aversion", "judging thoughts", "quitting thoughts", and note "pleasure", "relaxation", "enjoyment". If you note what is happening, then _anything_ that happens _supports_ practice. Pretty cool, huh?
Totally normal to get aversion. Totally normal to groove on body sensations. The secret is to note that this is what awareness is doing, so note "aversion", "judging thoughts", "quitting thoughts", and note "pleasure", "relaxation", "enjoyment". If you note what is happening, then _anything_ that happens _supports_ practice. Pretty cool, huh?
People have a hard time letting go of "having a problem". If you think about it, the way we usually think about ourselves is "I'm here but I really want to be there" --- lots of different flavors of that, but basically that's how we think of ourselves and our life.
It can be ironically hard to have easy sits. We can feel like we aren't working hard enough, but maybe we've been working too hard in the past and this is how easy it can be sometimes!
Best wishes Mo!
It can be ironically hard to have easy sits. We can feel like we aren't working hard enough, but maybe we've been working too hard in the past and this is how easy it can be sometimes!
Best wishes Mo!
Yeah, sounds like trying too hard and wanting too much.
But I wouldn't feel bad about it. You should feel proud that you did those 10+ days. I can guarantee you that you made more progress than a year of sitting and probably have a much clearer understanding of your strengths and weakenss.
With such reduced sleep, it actually sounds very wise that you decided to stop. It strikes me as an act of compassion in this case. There are some times for pushing, there are other times for stepping back. I think you made the right choice.
It's very very very hard to learn to deal with the part of our psyche that strives, that wants, that needs. It is such a core part of who we are. The only problem is we don't know how to turn it off or let it go. So we spend our entire life running towards the horizon, never catching it.
(Ambition is fine, but the point is to consciously use ambition skillfully, and not be used by by an primitive ambition-urge unconsciously and unskillfully.)
Normally, we think that 10% of what we need to know is right here and 90% of what we need to get is over the horizon. That's the way our brain tends to be wired, especially in modern life, where we read things and hear theories and believe those things more than our actual bodily experience in the world. It's only over time that we can actually appreciate that the experience that we want isn't over the horizon. It's actually more like we should be spending 90% of our mind just experiencing the reality of right now, and spend just 10% of our brain thinking about what we could do next in the future.
When you look back on your meditation history, you will see that all of your "failures" pretty much had to happen. Our mind needs to be confronted by the consequence of having greed, aversion, and ignorance. (Greed for better future, aversion for who we are now, ignoring the present moment.)
For what it's worth, I've had lots of failure and a few bad retreats... In fact, I credit one really bad retreat with beating it into my head that striving doesn't work. It was 14-18? days of pushing, pushing, lots of weird perception distortions, big feelings of "I'm almost there", and big feelings of "I'm totally burning out my body and mind". I wish I had quit that one early! But looking back I see that I probably would not have been able to "give up and just do the practice" if I didn't experience what happens when you "try harder and make progress happen".
What I did after my bad retreat is give up for a while. I was burnt out. I let my mind integrate the experience and better understand what happened. I focused on gentle exercise and sleep and getting my body full of energy again. I let my mind get happier again. ...and then I started sitting again, almost without even planning to do so. It just seemed natural to sit. But I had freak-out moments during those home sits and so I looked around for a teacher. Talking with a teacher was great. At one point I had this instinctual fear (Fear nana!) that when I closed my eyes, I felt like I was in the deep dark ocean and out there was a shark... and at any moment, I would see the eyes and teeth-filled jaws of the shark appearing right in front of me, a half-second before it would eat me. The teacher wasn't disturbed at all. He just said. "Don't worry, whatever gets eaten isn't you anyway." Wow! That totally chilled me out. Suddently, I had great practice at home.
So you can see, even around these kinds "big shark-attack" problems. The answer is just to relax and experience things in a very simple way. If you can connect with the natural, good feeling... that's what carries you all the way to awakening. Problems will come up, but the answer is always "soften your concern about the problem, hold the problem in a big, natural mind where the problem is just one aspect of your experience, and reconnect with what it feel like to be in your body."
This applies to spiritual ambititions too, like the big problem of wanting stream entry or enlightenment or moral perfection. It's okay to have those ambitions with maybe 10% of your mind, but the other 90% should be on the present moment and simply reconnecting to what it is like to be alive.
Best wishes Mo!
But I wouldn't feel bad about it. You should feel proud that you did those 10+ days. I can guarantee you that you made more progress than a year of sitting and probably have a much clearer understanding of your strengths and weakenss.
With such reduced sleep, it actually sounds very wise that you decided to stop. It strikes me as an act of compassion in this case. There are some times for pushing, there are other times for stepping back. I think you made the right choice.
It's very very very hard to learn to deal with the part of our psyche that strives, that wants, that needs. It is such a core part of who we are. The only problem is we don't know how to turn it off or let it go. So we spend our entire life running towards the horizon, never catching it.
(Ambition is fine, but the point is to consciously use ambition skillfully, and not be used by by an primitive ambition-urge unconsciously and unskillfully.)
Normally, we think that 10% of what we need to know is right here and 90% of what we need to get is over the horizon. That's the way our brain tends to be wired, especially in modern life, where we read things and hear theories and believe those things more than our actual bodily experience in the world. It's only over time that we can actually appreciate that the experience that we want isn't over the horizon. It's actually more like we should be spending 90% of our mind just experiencing the reality of right now, and spend just 10% of our brain thinking about what we could do next in the future.
When you look back on your meditation history, you will see that all of your "failures" pretty much had to happen. Our mind needs to be confronted by the consequence of having greed, aversion, and ignorance. (Greed for better future, aversion for who we are now, ignoring the present moment.)
For what it's worth, I've had lots of failure and a few bad retreats... In fact, I credit one really bad retreat with beating it into my head that striving doesn't work. It was 14-18? days of pushing, pushing, lots of weird perception distortions, big feelings of "I'm almost there", and big feelings of "I'm totally burning out my body and mind". I wish I had quit that one early!
But looking back I see that I probably would not have been able to "give up and just do the practice" if I didn't experience what happens when you "try harder and make progress happen". What I did after my bad retreat is give up for a while. I was burnt out. I let my mind integrate the experience and better understand what happened. I focused on gentle exercise and sleep and getting my body full of energy again. I let my mind get happier again. ...and then I started sitting again, almost without even planning to do so. It just seemed natural to sit. But I had freak-out moments during those home sits and so I looked around for a teacher. Talking with a teacher was great. At one point I had this instinctual fear (Fear nana!) that when I closed my eyes, I felt like I was in the deep dark ocean and out there was a shark... and at any moment, I would see the eyes and teeth-filled jaws of the shark appearing right in front of me, a half-second before it would eat me. The teacher wasn't disturbed at all. He just said. "Don't worry, whatever gets eaten isn't you anyway." Wow! That totally chilled me out. Suddently, I had great practice at home.
So you can see, even around these kinds "big shark-attack" problems. The answer is just to relax and experience things in a very simple way. If you can connect with the natural, good feeling... that's what carries you all the way to awakening. Problems will come up, but the answer is always "soften your concern about the problem, hold the problem in a big, natural mind where the problem is just one aspect of your experience, and reconnect with what it feel like to be in your body."
This applies to spiritual ambititions too, like the big problem of wanting stream entry or enlightenment or moral perfection. It's okay to have those ambitions with maybe 10% of your mind, but the other 90% should be on the present moment and simply reconnecting to what it is like to be alive.
Best wishes Mo!
At that time, I was working with Kenneth Folk via online sessions.
It's always great to find someone you can talk to in the flesh, but I've had a few teachers and several senior student help me out on Skype and I never felt that there was a limitation. What I did is said, "I'll look for a local teacher for three months, and if I don't find one, then I will find someone online." I visited about 5 different groups, didn't find anything, then sent an email to Kenneth... and then one thing led to another...
I'm always open to talking, so just let me know.
It's always great to find someone you can talk to in the flesh, but I've had a few teachers and several senior student help me out on Skype and I never felt that there was a limitation. What I did is said, "I'll look for a local teacher for three months, and if I don't find one, then I will find someone online." I visited about 5 different groups, didn't find anything, then sent an email to Kenneth... and then one thing led to another...
I'm always open to talking, so just let me know.