Please describe piti and sukha for me

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Stick Man, modified 7 Years ago at 10/28/16 5:17 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/28/16 5:17 AM

Please describe piti and sukha for me

Posts: 396 Join Date: 9/23/14 Recent Posts
Brasington describes piti as energetic and sukha as warm.

I am assuming that this means that piti is the electrical excitation feeling, and sukha is the warm or hot feeling.

Do you agree ?

And is there a more subtle bliss feeling that is neither exiting nor warm - more spacious, like happy empty space ?

He also postulates that piti is to do with stimulant hormones and sukha with opiods.

Is this a reasonable postulate ? (I thought this stuff had been studied already.)

If so, does the development of these feelings reflect increased sensitivity to or awareness of these hormones, or increased production of them ?

Also, do you distinguish between the heat of, say hard breathing or exercise, and the emotional warmth of sukha - or do they seem to be the same thing ?

merci
neko, modified 7 Years ago at 10/28/16 6:03 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/28/16 5:57 AM

RE: Please describe piti and sukha for me

Posts: 762 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
There are many different experiences that can be classified as piti and sukha. I personally do not feel (much) warmth from sukha.

Piti manifests in me usually as one or more of the following: happyness, excitement, (pleasurable) muscular tension, a feeling of being lifted upwards or flying, amazement, a kinesthetic feeling of being dragged towards the jhana, wonder, amazement.

Sukha is more like: vibratory, soothing, pleasurable, blissful, oceanic, like drifting in space (rather than being pulled upwards), relaxation, satisfaction.

I would call both "energetic" (as in the etymological sense of: there is a feeling of something going on physically and emotionally). Piti has a more "active" and exhilarating kind of energy (yang if you like) and sukha is more subtle (yin if you like).

In addition to this, there are often luminous effects, which I personally do not believe fall into either piti or sukha strictly (because they remain in 4th jhana, which has neither piti nor sukha), but which are usually classified as piti.

For textual sources, you might want to look up the definitions of the five grades of piti in the Visuddhimagga, although if I understand correctly you only like the suttas and do not like Buddhaghosa as much emoticon

For a modern description, Culadasa does a very nice dissection of what piti and sukha are in The Mind Illuminated. He starts from the Visuddhimagga definitions but elaborates and expands on them, and adds additional useful terminology like physical / mental pliancy, unification, and so on. Although, again, I disagree with Culadasa when he says that luminosity is a form of piti, since it stays on in 4th jhana.

(Sorry for the multiple edits.)
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Stick Man, modified 7 Years ago at 10/28/16 8:00 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/28/16 7:50 AM

RE: Please describe piti and sukha for me

Posts: 396 Join Date: 9/23/14 Recent Posts
So do you feel much warmth from piti ?

I tend to feel piti as tingling and electric currents, which can become hot as time goes on. Brasington concurs that this is an aspect of piti.

Part of the problem is the broadness of English words like rapture, bliss, pleasure, joy, happiness, etc. They can definitely be applied to piti but people like Brasington, and just about everybody else, apply them to sukha as well.

An strong adrenaline buzz, relaxing with a beer, or throwing sticks for your dog can all be described as; pleasure, joy - happiness but they are different feelings.

How you describe it does sound like two different chemical things.

Brasington says he thinks piti is "dopamine breaking down into norepinephrine", with side effects of norepinephrine being highly similar to piti with norepinephrine production hot flashes of heat.

- Brasington gets scanned, speculates on chemistry -
https://youtu.be/RCLT64SLYZk?t=23m20s

If piti is an effect of norepinephrine I would suppose that any sort of diet or exercise that stimulates it would help cut down the amount of time you need in meditation to cultivate it.

So, now to compare accounts of opiod drug highs to sukha....

I've never read the Vissudimagga, though reading that they have a very different conception of 1st jhana to what the buddha said then I can see why. But I'm very uneducated as far as buddism is concerned, generally. I keep meaning to get round to the sutras, but I didn't start with buddhism per se and don't feel mega motivated. With all these practitioners and writers around going on about their jhana trips, is there even a need to tackle the original stuff, or the ancient, less original stuff ?
neko, modified 7 Years ago at 10/28/16 10:04 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/28/16 10:04 AM

RE: Please describe piti and sukha for me

Posts: 762 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
Personally, no: Warmth is not a feature of my jhanas.
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Stick Man, modified 7 Years ago at 10/29/16 6:28 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/29/16 6:28 PM

RE: Please describe piti and sukha for me

Posts: 396 Join Date: 9/23/14 Recent Posts
neko:
Personally, no: Warmth is not a feature of my jhanas.
I'm surprised.
neko, modified 7 Years ago at 10/30/16 3:27 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/30/16 3:27 PM

RE: Please describe piti and sukha for me

Posts: 762 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
John:
neko:
Personally, no: Warmth is not a feature of my jhanas.
I'm surprised.


Do you feel warmth?
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Stick Man, modified 7 Years ago at 10/30/16 3:54 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/30/16 3:54 PM

RE: Please describe piti and sukha for me

Posts: 396 Join Date: 9/23/14 Recent Posts
neko:
John:
neko:
Personally, no: Warmth is not a feature of my jhanas.
I'm surprised.


Do you feel warmth?
I do. Usually not at first. Women tend to induce it more quickly without me needing the preliminary sitting practice.

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