Quickly strong dullness

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B Lejon, modified 7 Years ago at 12/8/16 6:24 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/7/16 11:05 PM

Quickly strong dullness

Posts: 29 Join Date: 11/27/16 Recent Posts
Since a couple of days ago I started to get very dull in meditation and it's like I get into a mode where I'm in a daze and can't get nothing done when it comes to following the breath and be mindful.

These problems started when my mind wondering got less and almost stopped, only short once still existed. After the mind wondering was less this dullness came almost immediately.

Before I could sit 40 minutes with no problems but now I get into this daze after 15-20 minutes of following the breath and being mindful, after that I'm in this daze rest of the day or until I sleep for a while.

What happened and what can I do about it?

Anyone who experienced the same and gotten out of it?

I sleep well and enough at nights, I eat a good diet, that is not the problem.
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Nicky, modified 7 Years ago at 12/8/16 1:31 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/7/16 11:42 PM

RE: Quickly strong dullness

Posts: 484 Join Date: 8/2/14 Recent Posts
The Buddhist scriptures describe five obstacles-hindrances to meditation, namely: (i) sensual desire; (ii) ill-will; (iii) sloth & torpor; (iv) restlessness & remorse; and (v) doubt. 

The 'dullness' described in your post sounds like a classic case of 'sloth & torpor', which is sometimes called 'sinking mind'. 

Two different methods I would recommend for this are: 

(1) Focus your attention on the dullness. This can be very difficult to do because the mind itself is dull but you use whatever awareness remains to accutely be aware of the sinking dullness. Do this until the dullness or fog clears. Your head will nod a lot but you must keep awake as best you can.

Alternately: 

(2) Focus your attention on the posture of your body. Place each hand on each knee, hold your body up & just focus on keeping your body up. This will make your mind more awake and make your awareness more broad & open. 

When the mind starts becoming calm, the hindrance of sloth & torpor is common. It must be endured until it clears. 

Regards 
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B Lejon, modified 7 Years ago at 12/8/16 2:13 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/8/16 2:13 AM

RE: Quickly strong dullness

Posts: 29 Join Date: 11/27/16 Recent Posts
Ok, thanks!

I tried this just now and I don't know if I did it right but when I tried to focus my attention on the dullness it was like my brain/mind was a grey fog and that was what I was trying to focus at. Is this ok?

When I tried to focus on keeping me upright my mind wandered all over my body, can I narrow it down to just my spine or something to make it easier.

It's very hard to do so I would like to know if I can make it more simple because it's like my mind is scattered but now with an added fog to make it even harder.

When I do walking meditation I have to stop between every length and recuperate my mindfulness then walk another length. This keep me alert all the time but when sitting I quickly goes in to this fog.

Actually, the last 5 minutes or so of my 50 minutes sitting was a little bit more clear so I hope I'm doing something right.
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Nicky, modified 7 Years ago at 12/8/16 5:22 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/8/16 5:21 AM

RE: Quickly strong dullness

Posts: 484 Join Date: 8/2/14 Recent Posts
B Lejon:

I tried this just now and I don't know if I did it right but when I tried to focus my attention on the dullness it was like my brain/mind was a grey fog and that was what I was trying to focus at. Is this ok?



As I said, this method is difficult to do. But yes, all the minds sees is like swirling sinking clouds of dullness & momentary losses of consciousness. The point of the exercise, if it can be done, is to maintain unity of mind/awareness with the dullness. 

B Lejon

When I tried to focus on keeping me upright my mind wandered all over my body, can I narrow it down to just my spine or something to make it easier.

Sure, just the spine is OK. The point of this method is to keep the mind awake & more open. 

When I do walking meditation I have to stop between every length and recuperate my mindfulness then walk another length. This keep me alert all the time but when sitting I quickly goes in to this fog.

Yes. Changing posture to walking or standing meditation is another method to overcome the dullness. 

Actually, the last 5 minutes or so of my 50 minutes sitting was a little bit more clear so I hope I'm doing something right.

As I mentioned, the dullness is a symptom of calmness. With time & persistence, this fog should clear. 

Kind regards emoticon






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B Lejon, modified 7 Years ago at 12/8/16 6:19 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/8/16 6:19 AM

RE: Quickly strong dullness

Posts: 29 Join Date: 11/27/16 Recent Posts
Thanks Nicky!

I will get to work with these new tools.
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B Lejon, modified 7 Years ago at 12/9/16 11:07 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/9/16 11:06 PM

RE: Quickly strong dullness

Posts: 29 Join Date: 11/27/16 Recent Posts
Can the reason for this problem be a imbalance in my concentration to mindfulness ratio where my concentration is way stronger than my mindfulness, (not that my concentration is strong but compared to my mindfulness).

Just thinking if it would do me good to do a lot more walking meditation than sitting meditation for some time until the ratio is more balanced.

Any thoughts on that?
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Nicky, modified 7 Years ago at 12/10/16 12:59 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/10/16 12:41 AM

RE: Quickly strong dullness

Posts: 484 Join Date: 8/2/14 Recent Posts
Sure. Lots of thoughts.

Your theory of "concentration being stronger than mindfulness" is certainly valid and may actually be true in relation to your sloth & torpor. 

However, despite comprehending what you are describing, I would personally use different terminology, as follows: 

Your "concentration is stronger than your mindfulness" because of wrong meditation technique. 

The "strong concentration" you are referring to I would call "wrong concentration" because it sounds like it is a type of concentration based in supression or deliberate force, which means meditating with excessive willfulness, desire or craving.

Sloth & torpor can occur in this situation because the mind is supressing or pushing down the other hindrances (namely, sensual desire, ill-will and/or restllessness & remorse). This is exhausting for the mind. 

Instead of the mind be more open & thus allowing the other hindrances to rise up, purify & dissolve, excessive force pushes the other hindrances down into the nervous system, causing mental fatigue. 

An analogy is a bird in a cage. For the bird to be free from the cage, the door of the cage must simply be opened. But if one uses force in an attempt to destroy the cage, the bird might be harmed or even killed. When there is rignt mindfulness, one simply & gently opens the door of the cage to free the bird &, in a detached manner, steps back to allow the bird to make its own way out of the cage. If one attempts to put one's hand into the cage to remove the bird, the bird might be harmed or killed. . 

When meditation is practised with excessive desire or craving, this is "wrong mindfulness" & "wrong concentration" according to Buddhist principles because right mindfulness & right concentration are based on giving up craving.

To quote the Pali scriptures and also a modern teacher:
And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go [of craving], attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

SN 48.10
 


As for samadhi (concentration), an empty mind is the supreme samadhi, the supremely focused firmness of mind. The straining and striving sort of samadhi isn't the real thing and the samadhi which aims at anything other than non-clinging to the five khandas is micchasamadhi (wrong or perverted samadhi). You should be aware that there is both micchasamadhi and sammasamadhi (right or correct samadhi). Only the mind that is empty of grasping at and clinging to 'I' and 'mine' can have the true and perfect stability of sammasamadhi. One who has an empty mind has correct samadhi. 

Heart-wood from the Bo Tree: Ajaan Buddhadasa


Note: Mindfulness & concentration are not two different things. Concentration is just continous unbroken mindfulness therefore the quality of concentration will be determined by the quality of mindfulness.

To conclude, your diagnosis of possible "imbalance" was well-diagnosed however the imbalance is probably an imbalance of effort /energy. 

Again, there is the analogy of holding a small bird in your hand. If it is held too tight, the bird will be crushed. If held too loosely, the bird will fly away. 

I often post here about mindfulness having only one goal, which is to keep the mind clear & quiet (rather than to keep the mind watching the breathing) but no-one seems to understand what I am posting since everyone seems to believe a deliberate effort must be made to direct the mind towards the breathing (which I believe is completely unncessary since breathing will naturally become the predominant sense object of the quiet clear mind).  

The old Buddhist scriptures do not instruct to deliberately direct the mind towards the breathing. They only say "establish mindfulness in front of one's face". 

Regards 

Now how is mindfulness with in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit?

There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore.
 Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

MN 118

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B Lejon, modified 7 Years ago at 12/10/16 1:39 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/10/16 1:39 AM

RE: Quickly strong dullness

Posts: 29 Join Date: 11/27/16 Recent Posts
I think I get what you are saying.

I think I have wrong concentration and are forcing me to stay on the breath and this is an old habit. As of lately when I started to relax and became more mindful the old habit of 'grabbing' the breath just suck me in and my awareness/mindfulness just faded and all that remained was this fog.

It has since got a little bit better but walking meditation is the easiest to be mindful since my habit of 'grabbing' my meditation object is not as strong there and this let me be more mindful of the present moment and a part of this also my meditation object/feet.

Any suggestions on how to go from here?

I'm thinking to do a lot of walking and learn to be in the present moment with a gentle watch on my feet. Then also do some sitting and start to learn to be aware of the present moment with the gentle almost automatic following of the breath. This is something I have to learn from scratch, right concentration.

Did I get what you tried to tell me?

Thanks!
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Nicky, modified 7 Years ago at 12/10/16 3:55 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/10/16 3:55 AM

RE: Quickly strong dullness

Posts: 484 Join Date: 8/2/14 Recent Posts
B Lejon:
Then also do some sitting and start to learn to be aware of the present moment with the gentle almost automatic following of the breath. This is something I have to learn from scratch, right concentration.

Did I get what you tried to tell me?

Thanks!

Yes. This is what I tried to tell you. 

To be aware of the present moment can make the mind more alert & wakeful & reduce/minimize sloth & torpor. 

Best wishes

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