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General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners

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General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners B B 9/3/16 3:53 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Kim Katami 9/5/16 6:18 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Banned For waht? 9/5/16 10:01 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Kim Katami 9/12/16 4:02 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Stirling Campbell 9/12/16 4:18 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Kim Katami 9/13/16 2:20 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Small Steps 9/13/16 2:02 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Stirling Campbell 9/13/16 2:17 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Kim Katami 9/13/16 2:50 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners tom moylan 9/14/16 4:35 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Kim Katami 9/14/16 4:55 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Banned For waht? 9/15/16 7:41 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Banned For waht? 9/15/16 7:56 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners S. 9/20/16 2:18 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Banned For waht? 9/20/16 9:10 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Elantra 10/15/16 10:51 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Elantra 10/15/16 10:54 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Kim Katami 10/15/16 12:19 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Elantra 10/15/16 12:39 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Banned For waht? 9/5/16 9:31 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Jack Hatfield 9/6/16 4:05 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Dream Walker 9/11/16 2:53 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Stirling Campbell 9/12/16 2:56 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners B B 9/17/16 11:57 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Banned For waht? 9/17/16 4:44 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners B B 9/18/16 5:05 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Kim Katami 9/18/16 5:31 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Banned For waht? 9/19/16 10:01 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Elantra 10/14/16 5:54 PM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners Banned For waht? 10/15/16 9:45 AM
RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners B B 11/13/16 1:53 PM
Hi, this is 'B B', using a new account as I disabled my old account. I wish to generate discussion on and interest in Dzogchen having been practicing it for over a year now. I believe accessing and stabilizing the state of rigpa would be highly beneficial to many practitioners on this site. In addition Dzogchen contains many secondary methods besides actually resting in rigpa which I've found to be very powerful, and which I'd like to recommend. I feel OK writing about this now as I have recently received a transmission via one of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's (ChNN) webcasts, where I was introduced to rigpa. Though I now believe I had been accessing rigpa for many months before that. However, I should warn people that I've never received confirmation from a teacher that I've been accessing genuine rigpa. It's said to be highly unusual if not impossible to access rigpa without Direct Introduction from a Dzogchen teacher, according to ChNN. With that said, I may be an unusual case having already experienced profound perceptual transformations via basic Theravadin samatha and vipassana techniques. I think it's reasonable to assume that it was much easier for me to access rigpa having reduced or removed much of the heavy perceptual baggage carried around by most people, such as a strong sense of self and agency. The core of my practice has been attempting to rest naturally in the state of rigpa more frequently, for longer periods of time, and in increasingly busy, demanding environments. Until recently I would begin by observing any thoughts and sub-verbal concepts in the mind in as relaxed and carefree a state as possible. Instructions in this vein can be found in unrestricted books such as 'The Nature of Mind: The Dzogchen Instructions of Aro Yeshe Jungne', 'Vivid Awareness: The Mind Instructions of Khenpo Gangshar', 'A Spacious Path to Freedom: Practical Instructions on the Union of Mahamudra and Atiyoga', 'Carefree Dignity' by Tsoknyi Rinpoche, 'The Union of Dzogchen and Bodhichitta' by Anyen Rinpoche, & 'Clarifying the Natural State'. At some point, once any strong sense of 'efforting' had faded, all thoughts and concepts would vanish, though perhaps just for a split second at first. With repeat application of this method, I would find myself spending longer in a state devoid of all but a very subtle sense of duality (noticeable indirectly through some lingering feeling of subtle unpleasantness) soon after the vanishing moment. Then perhaps I would turn my attention towards this remaining duality, or would let go of any lingering effort on any level. Anyway, at some point I would be able to drop this remaining obstruction and would be able to prolong rigpa. At this point thoughts may arise briefly but vanish soon after if left alone. The non-duality tends to remain mostly intact throughout. One tell-tale sign of this (found in other unrestricted material so I don't mind repeating it here) is a complete relaxation of all bodily tension. I find my eyes tend to open slightly if I have closed them. I have also noticed a point at which a certain awareness carried over from rigpa would remain even if the non-duality was lost and thoughts began stick around for longer. By calmly observing this and leaving the thoughts as they are, the non-duality would return (seemingly due to the presence of this awareness). In recent weeks I've been trying to take a more effortless, indirect approach. I find that practicing tonglen, or cultivating a strongly altruistic thought some other way, will often spontaneously trigger rigpa. Another approach I've been taking is just to cultivate a complete naked, open frame of mind (probably inspired by Rigdzin Shikpo's 'Never Turn Away'). Here are the main points I'd like to get across: [list type="1" start="1"] [*]It is possible to achieve a mental state in which one can function at least as well as normal and yet experience no suffering whatsoever. That is, no stress or unpleasantness on any level. I haven't tested the 'function at least as well as normal' bit much yet, but I have repeatedly found I can completely remove all suffering in my experience by accessing rigpa, even in situations where I've felt nausea and physical pain. There have especially been many occurrences where I've noticed I can transform a strong sense of mental tightness, contraction and clinging, to complete openness and relaxation. [*]By letting the 'cycling' phenomenon do its own thing, without trying to push towards ever greater absence of 'self', I have found the dark night symptoms are occurring less often, becoming much easier to deal with, and most importantly that the delusive aspects of my perception are still being reduced, and perception-altering fruitions are still occurring now and then (though perhaps less often than they would otherwise). So by simply resting in rigpa, I am still seeing relatively short-term improvements to my perception, as I would have if I had continued all the investigation I was doing in my previous vipassana practice (mainly contemplating the 3 characteristics from various different perspectives). I haven't been merely shifting back and forth between a base perceptual state to the state of a Buddha without any change to the base state. [*]Dzogchen practice is I believe an excellent way forward for those who consider themselves at 4th path according to Daniel's or Kenneth's systems, and who may have subscribed to the view that there is no further progress to be made on the insight, no-self, or even just suffering-reduction 'axes'. I would certainly say I have gained insight of both an intellectual and non-conceptual kind. In fact in retrospect I could hardly say I had achieved non-conceptual insight before I had learnt to access rigpa. The benefit of being able to have 'fruitions' seems now to have more to do with their brain resetting/mapping effects than because cessation itself is nibbana. [*]Also, I suspect MCTB 3rd/4th path is an excellent base from which to practice Dzogchen trekcho. At least I've personally found I can practice it effectively without needing to first put in many hours of practice of the preliminary 'ngondro', or the 7 mind-trainings. On the basis of how highly ChNN regards the importance of guru yoga, I'm intending to put more time into that, and other practices which he describes in The Precious Vase such as Chod and Yantra Yoga. [*]For those at any stage, Dzogchen contains many powerful methods with broader potential which at least deserve investigation and greater experimentation in this community. (E.g. the 9 purification breathings, Chod, the 7 mind-trainings, the 4 thoughts that turn the mind, tonglen, guru yoga, yantra yoga). If you feel any sort of inclination towards bodhicitta, I would recommend cultivating that as much as possible through practices such as tonglen and dedication of merit after each sit, as even on a purely practical level, they have a calming and easing effect on the mind similar to a very diligent sila practice which makes samatha easier. I've found orienting myself towards others as much as possible has only positive effects for myself and others, and for my practice and personal happiness. [*]The Dzogchen viewless view described in books such as 'The Supreme Source' by ChNN could be very beneficial to DhO practitioners stuck in a pre-first-path dark night and struggling with over-striving/pushing for faster progress, as in retrospect I had much difficulty with. It would require skilful and judicious application, and perhaps guidance from someone more experienced, but it certainly seems like it is under-utilized in this community. [/list] For those looking to go beyond the unrestricted material I mentioned above, ChNN's International Dzogchen Community may be the most accessible means of doing so, especially given that he gives transmissions via webcast, as well as broadcasting many retreats. Once you have received Direct Introduction, you are qualified to purchase restricted materials on the Shang Shung Foundation web store (such as The Precious Vase, mentioned above, which I [i]highly[/i] recommend). I've been surprised so far with how much is accessible without requiring further transmissions.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/5/16 6:18 AM as a reply to B B.
Hi BB,

Some comments.

> I believe accessing and stabilizing the state of rigpa would be highly beneficial to many practitioners on this site.

- Sure emoticon

> I have recently received a transmission via one of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's (ChNN) webcasts, where I was introduced to rigpa. Though I now believe I had been accessing rigpa for many months before that.

- I don't mean any disrespect but I think what the orthodox dzogchen people say about rigpa, in this regard, that it's rare, difficult etc. is an exaggeration.

> It's said to be highly unusual if not impossible to access rigpa without Direct Introduction from a Dzogchen teacher, according to ChNN. With that said, I may be an unusual case having already experienced profound perceptual transformations via basic Theravadin samatha and vipassana techniques.

- I have an issue when it is said that only dzogchenpa's know rigpa, and only dzogchen-teachers can give direct introduction to it. This is plain stoopid and narrow minded. Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of dzogchen and consider myself a dzogchen-practitioner, not the orthodox-kind, though. Having said this rigpa and sem/mind are not so easy to distinguish as is often said. My observation as a teacher giving pointing out instructions is that people without solid training history, shamath and vipashyana, simply don't get it. Whether one gets it or not depends on previous training, i.e. purity of mind.

> Dzogchen practice is I believe an excellent way forward for those who consider themselves at 4th path according to Daniel's or Kenneth's systems, and who may have subscribed to the view that there is no further progress to be made on the insight, no-self, or even just suffering-reduction 'axes'.

- It seems to me that dzogchen rigpa-practice would be the next smart choice for any theravadins, be it 4th or other path. I've referred to this several times on this forum but no one commented. It's fine with me but I can't help thinking why. At 4th path, both traditional and modern theravadins appear to be half-baked. There is still the swamp of the subtlest mind (kun gzhi/alaya vijnana) to be plowed. I haven't seen discussions about this here.

> For those at any stage, Dzogchen contains many powerful methods with broader potential which at least deserve investigation and greater experimentation in this community. (E.g. the 9 purification breathings, Chod, the 7 mind-trainings, the 4 thoughts that turn the mind, tonglen, guru yoga, yantra yoga). If you feel any sort of inclination towards bodhicitta, I would recommend cultivating that as much as possible through practices such as tonglen and dedication of merit after each sit

- Yup, agree.

> The Dzogchen viewless view described in books such as 'The Supreme Source' by ChNN could be very beneficial to DhO practitioners stuck in a pre-first-path dark night and struggling with over-striving/pushing for faster progress, as in retrospect I had much difficulty with. It would require skilful and judicious application, and perhaps guidance from someone more experienced, but it certainly seems like it is under-utilized in this community.

- I don't wish to sound like a preacher man, and I don't think BB does either, but I agree with this.

- One thing about dzogchen however is that traditional dzogchen can only be learned from a lama and there is an oath of secrecy involved. This means that were a dz-practitioner talking specifics of dz practice here, he would be violating the rules. Personally, I hold dz teachings and any dharma teachings in high regard but I haven't yet figured out why it is that these people of the orthodox dz tradition wish to keep their secrets and not share openly. It's not like the teachings lost their effectiveness were they openly shared and talked about. That's what some say, however.

Cheers.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/5/16 9:31 AM as a reply to B B.
"pushing for faster progress and over-striving.." "pre-first path suffering"

"viewless view"
....

Be in viewless view, do things with moderation, like not eating over, not entertaining yourself over, not having fun that you would lose that awareness.
What you mean by overstriving and faster progress? its pushing being moderate and guarding mind that you wouldn't end up overdoing things, you will sure notice that it depends on you how much effort you put into your path the more progress you make.

You have a backward problem, as overdoing things will provide lots of happiness and good feelings, taking certain things just by breaking couple rules can provide instant satisfaction. So you need to guard your mind from overdoing things and that will mean "no" to lots of things and you need to learn when to stop. So that effort is superior and you will recieve precepts naturally. So the path is kind of individual.

Dharma is you are able to debunk views by providing its opposite what zeroes out the clinging and you are able to view things viewlessly.  And opposite doens't mean there is only two directions, there is more.
....
What i said isn't the highest path or way. There is this also that things are beginningless, without exitence. Above cause and effect view. Also way of following something higher, way of not disrespecting lower ways.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/5/16 10:01 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
yes, If you meet the real-deal and he/she gives you instructions, these instructions maybe not be "instructions recieved".

Kim:
- It seems to me that dzogchen rigpa-practice would be the next smart choice for any theravadins, be it 4th or other path. I've referred to this several times on this forum but no one commented. It's fine with me but I can't help thinking why. At 4th path, both traditional and modern theravadins appear to be half-baked. There is still the swamp of the subtlest mind (kun gzhi/alaya vijnana) to be plowed. I haven't seen discussions about this here.
You have missed maybe that it was a trend to follow AF, "actual freedom" philosophy, i think some tried to practice it without achieving 4th path. So technically many olders here have seen it all, maybe thats why there is silence. Its hawkward that people who have followed past 4th path paths and now need to start again doing it in different tradition. While meanwhile they got different perceptionshifts along the way, anyway it raises questions.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/6/16 4:05 PM as a reply to B B.
B.B.,

What do you experience when you experience rigpa?  This is not its definition but what you experience.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/11/16 2:53 PM as a reply to Jack Hatfield.
Jack Hatfield:
B.B.,

What do you experience when you experience rigpa?  This is not its definition but what you experience.


I find that knowing vocabulary is very diferent from being able to actually explain it from direct experience. Of course explaining it from direct experience for others just gives them more vocabulary to use to confuse themselves into believing that some sort of shift they have had is the same as a vocabulary learned.
Of course it never stops me from flapping my coffee coolers though precision of vocabulary is a tricky thing and applying it to an awakening event is even trickier.
Good luck,
~D

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/12/16 2:56 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
I've spent the balance of my contemplative career in the Dzogchen tradition until my last Dzogchen teacher died, though I am working toward ordination in Zen these days. In many respects they are similar. This is more about the teacher than anything else, since I honestly think ALL of these traditions will get you there.

I think the learning curve from the start is harder than some of the dry practices, though the non-contemplative work was a GREAT foundation. It DOES make sense to me that these wet practices might seem better suited to post Stream Entry work.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/12/16 4:02 PM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
Rist Eiyes, If you meet the real-deal and he/she gives you instructions, these instructions maybe not be "instructions recieved".

Kim:
- It seems to me that dzogchen rigpa-practice would be the next smart choice for any theravadins, be it 4th or other path. I've referred to this several times on this forum but no one commented. It's fine with me but I can't help thinking why. At 4th path, both traditional and modern theravadins appear to be half-baked. There is still the swamp of the subtlest mind (kun gzhi/alaya vijnana) to be plowed. I haven't seen discussions about this here.
You have missed maybe that it was a trend to follow AF, "actual freedom" philosophy, i think some tried to practice it without achieving 4th path. So technically many olders here have seen it all, maybe thats why there is silence. Its hawkward that people who have followed past 4th path paths and now need to start again doing it in different tradition. While meanwhile they got different perceptionshifts along the way, anyway it raises questions.

Oh, right. I remember seeing threads about it but never read any. Is Actual Freedom dzogchen? I have no idea AF teaches...

I remember Daniel mentioning that nowadays he practices/is interested in mahamudra and dzogchen. I assumed he had exchange with Loch Kelly. I've been meaning to ask him about this.
Stirling Campbell Dzogchen... Zen these days. In many respects they are similar. This is more about the teacher than
anything else, since I honestly think ALL of these traditions will get you there.

I think the learning curve from the start is harder than some of the dry practices, though the non-contemplative work was a
GREAT foundation. It DOES make sense to me that these wet practices might seem better suited to post Stream Entry work.

Lama Alan Wallace, Dalai Lama's direct student: "(There are) two approaches to identifying the mind. We can receive pointing out instructions from a qualified master, or we can just do the practice".

Someone wrote: "My first buddhist teacher was Kobun Chino Roshi*. In one class, someone asked him how to get closer to his lineage or more involved with his lineage. His answer was to look into dzogchen.

From my own exp, I can honestly admit that I didn't get it, had no idea of rigpa recognition until lately. Something went click in July and has remained that way. Measured with Open Heart Bhumi Model, this is the 9th bhumi opened. Theravada 4th path is 6th bhumi both in pragmatic and orthodox theravadan practitioners. Geez, it was hard to get through that terrain from 6th to 9th bhumi, like walking in tar waist deep. Now, it's pretty clear, although alaya/substrate still isn't fully neutralised. Also three other OH-practitioners got to open their 9th bhumis in August. They all said the same about how great/significant the shift has been from 8th to 9th bhumi.




RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/12/16 4:18 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
KIm Katami:

Lama Alan Wallace, Dalai Lama's direct student: "(There are) two approaches to identifying the mind. We can receive pointing out instructions from a qualified master, or we can just do the practice".

Someone wrote: "My first buddhist teacher was Kobun Chino Roshi*. In one class, someone asked him how to get closer to his lineage or more involved with his lineage. His answer was to look into dzogchen.

Kim,

I thought everyone got the pointing out instructions from their teacher. It has never occured to me that they didn't. Huh.

Itt was one of Kobun's students (and a powerful teacher himself) who convinced me to continue working in Zen for this reason. As it happens, my sangha is at Jikoji, which is Kobun's first Zen center, though my lineage is Shunryu Suzuki.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/13/16 2:20 AM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
KIm Katami:

Lama Alan Wallace, Dalai Lama's direct student: "(There are) two approaches to identifying the mind. We can receive pointing out instructions from a qualified master, or we can just do the practice".

Someone wrote: "My first buddhist teacher was Kobun Chino Roshi*. In one class, someone asked him how to get closer to his lineage or more involved with his lineage. His answer was to look into dzogchen.

Kim,

I thought everyone got the pointing out instructions from their teacher. It has never occured to me that they didn't. Huh.

Itt was one of Kobun's students (and a powerful teacher himself) who convinced me to continue working in Zen for this reason. As it happens, my sangha is at Jikoji, which is Kobun's first Zen center, though my lineage is Shunryu Suzuki.

You mean you assume everyone practicing dzogchen gets po-instructions? I don't know how often orthodox dz teachers give that. And probably there isn't a universal norm regarding this but some teachers give it on a regular basis.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/13/16 2:02 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I don't think getting pointing out instructions is any guarantee that one will then recognize "their true nature." Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche reportedly gave instructions to a thousand practitioners in Taiwan once, and afterwards only a handful of them "got it." My thinking is that if you haven't done any real practice or cultivation, the instructions are probably not sufficient. If you've already practiced and somehow come to your own realizations regarding awareness, perhaps formal instructions aren't that important. Maybe those few individuals who've access to both are lucky.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/13/16 2:17 PM as a reply to Small Steps.
Small Steps:
I don't think getting pointing out instructions is any guarantee that one will then recognize "their true nature."

100% agree. 

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/13/16 2:50 PM as a reply to Small Steps.
Small Steps:
I don't think getting pointing out instructions is any guarantee that one will then recognize "their true nature." Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche reportedly gave instructions to a thousand practitioners in Taiwan once, and afterwards only a handful of them "got it." My thinking is that if you haven't done any real practice or cultivation, the instructions are probably not sufficient. If you've already practiced and somehow come to your own realizations regarding awareness, perhaps formal instructions aren't that important. Maybe those few individuals who've access to both are lucky.
Yup, surely not. Otherwise we'd all be dzogchen practitioners. Lol.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/14/16 4:35 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Oh, right. I remember seeing threads about it but never read any. Is Actual Freedom dzogchen? I have no idea AF teaches...


Howdy Kim,

back in the day, here, when AF was all the rage, Kenneth Folk had the take on it that it was nothing new but rather the non-boddhisaatva buddha attainment. The implication was that it is a "selfish" attainment.  I don't take this stance
personally but respect Kenneth's opinion greatly.

I can't purport to have anything other than a theorhetical opinion on this level of attainment.

As to whether Dzogchen=AF, it COULD be.  It is a no-view view as Rist ei pointed out accurately IMO

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/14/16 4:55 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
OK. I read some old posts about AF. I understood that it was a working hypothesis of it's founder, (was Richard his name). Other than that, from what I read, I didn't get a very clear picture of what it was about. It may or may not be dzogchen. Maybe there is something overlapping with dzogchen, I don't know. However, personally I am careful in drawing conclusions too fast.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/15/16 7:41 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
AF.

A half quote: http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/library/topics/pce.htm

A PCE is when one’s sense of identity temporarily vacates the throne and apperception occurs. Apperception is the mind’s perception of itself … it is a pure awareness . Normally the mind perceives through the senses and sorts the data received according to its predilection; but the mind itself remains unperceived ... it is taken to be unknowable. Apperception is when the ‘thinker’ and the ‘feeler’ is not and an unmediated awareness occurs. The pure consciousness experience is as if one has eyes in the back of one’s head; there is a three hundred and sixty degree awareness and all is self-evidently clear.This is knowing by direct experience, unmoderated by any ‘self’ whatsoever. One is able to see that ‘I’ and ‘me’ have been standing in the way of the perfection and purity that is the essential character of this moment of being here becoming apparent. Here a solid and irrefutable native intelligence can operate freely because the ‘thinker’ and the ‘feeler’ is in abeyance. One is the universe ’s experience of itself as a human being ... after all, the very stuff this body is made of is the very stuff of the universe. There is no ‘outside’ to the perfection of the universe to come from; one only thought and felt that one was a separate identity.

... http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/library/topics/method.htm

Richard: Before applying the actualism method – the ongoing enjoyment and appreciation of this moment of being alive – it is essential for success to grasp the fact that this very moment which is happening now is your only moment of being alive. The past, although it did happen, is not actual now. The future, though it will happen, is not actual now. Only now is actual. Yesterday’s happiness and harmlessness does not mean a thing if one is miserable and malicious now and a hoped-for happiness and harmlessness tomorrow is to but waste this moment of being alive in waiting. All one gets by waiting is more waiting. Thus any ‘change’ can only happen now. The jumping in point is always here; it is at this moment in time and this place in space. Thus, if one misses it this time around, hey presto, one has another chance immediately. Life is excellent at providing opportunities like this.
.

What ‘I’ did, all those years ago, was to devise a remarkably effective way to be able to enjoy and appreciate this moment of being alive each moment again (I know that methods are to be actively discouraged, in some people’s eyes, but this one worked). It does take some doing to start off with but, as success after success starts to multiply exponentially, it becomes progressively easier to enjoy and appreciate being here each moment again. One begins by asking, each moment again, ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive’?

Note: asking how one is experiencing this moment of being alive is not the actualism method; consistently enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive is what the actualism method is. And this is because the actualism method is all about consciously and knowingly imitating life in the actual world. Also, by virtue of proceeding in this manner the means to the end – an ongoing enjoyment and appreciation – are no different to the end itself.

..
Peter: The method of becoming free from the Human Condition is devastatingly simple but requires a few initial ingredients for success to be guaranteed.

  • A recognition that what you are currently doing is not working, an awareness of not being fully alive, an acknowledgement of living a second-rate life, the admission of failure in your relationships or on the spiritual path, an admission of not being free or maybe a haunting memory of a peak experience of perfection and purity.
  • A willingness or intent to make freedom from malice and sorrow one’s main ambition in life – to become happy and harmless.
  • An acknowledgement that the only moment one can experience life is this very moment.
The essential method is to enjoy and appreciate each moment of being alive and to undertake a total investigation into anything that is preventing me from being happy now – after all, the point is to be happy now, if I was happy ten minutes ago it is of no consequence, nor at some time in the future. The question to ask yourself, each moment again, is ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive?’

..

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/15/16 7:56 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
so that AF, imho uses the same "seeing reality in realtime" channel what is MCTB 3th path. As AF claims permanet shift at teh end of path, its is also 4th path MCTB attainment claim, permanent untangelment...

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/17/16 11:57 AM as a reply to B B.
@Kim Katami: Thanks for the comments.

“One thing about dzogchen however is that traditional dzogchen can only be learned from a lama and there is an oath of secrecy involved. This means that were a dz-practitioner talking specifics of dz practice here, he would be violating the rules.”
There is a lot of discussion about what constitutes a samaya breach in Dzogchen here http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=984&sid=24a3c455707d591607eb2f951ba5945a. The question doesn't seem to have a clear answer, and views are apparently very divided on the topic. I personally don't see an issue if people were to discuss their practice here, assuming it's based on unrestricted Dzogchen instructions.

Regarding the difference between rigpa and the PCE, the DhO member Omega Point/bodhiyoga addresses this here. He argues, very convincingly to me, that the PCE corresponds to a base-of-all state. But if anyone wishes to discuss this further, it may be better to create a new thread as it's likely to be a complex discussion that would derail this thread.

@Jack Hatfield: I will answer this, but I would appreciate some explanation for the question, as my own experience isn't what I created this thread to discuss, and it is still very limited, especially when it comes to accessing rigpa outside of sits (if it even is rigpa). So for anyone reading this, don't use my description to develop ideas about what to expect. It should just serve as an indication of what can occur for someone practicing the techniques contained in the unrestricted books listed above. 

When I access rigpa, the main characteristics of the state seem to be: 1. non-duality: absence of even a sense of being or presence. 2. spontaneous unfolding: no sense of having to make effort to carry out actions. This is a key point for me in distinguishing between rigpa and something very close to it. In rigpa everything happens automatically, without even the slightest possibility of Doing anything. 3. all thoughts "self-liberate", i.e. vanish into the expanse of non-dual awareness, within seconds of arising. Without thought the mind is very noticeably open and free of tension. 4. complete physical relaxation, such as an unclenching of any tension around the chest, which seems to lead to greater emotional sensitivity, open-heartedness, and openness to pain. 5. absence of any stress, suffering, or unpleasantness (though I haven't tested this against really intense pain or suffering).

The other characteristics that I'm less confident about are:
1. total compassion and interest in others, the polar opposition of self-absorption. 2. subtle bliss and happiness.

The most difficult to understand is how it's possible to function normally in the world in this state, as typically when I can access rigpa I'm sitting still and my mind comes to rest almost in a state of “superposition”, without focusing on anything. The few occasions where I could possibly speculate that I was experiencing genuine rigpa outside of a sit, I wasn't doing anything mentally demanding, just walking down a street or in a park. It seemed like I could still recognise my surroundings, but that my mind no longer drew clear divisions between objects. That is as much as I'm able to say. 

@Rist Ei:
I'm finding you very difficult to understand. And to be honest, I'm not willing to invest the time in trying to make sense of what you're saying, and also write a coherent reply of my own. If you could be clearer and more concise in communicating just the core point you are trying to make, it may seem like less of a time investment for me (and probably others) to reply to you. No offence!

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/17/16 4:44 PM as a reply to B B.
When you don't focus on anything, can you focus on that "not focusing on anything"?

When you bring your awareness back home from that "not focusing on anything" it consist of shovel full of that same "not focusing of anything" but when you don't know how, you come back emptyhanded as to me you have done so all the time thusfar. None taken!

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/18/16 5:05 AM as a reply to B B.
Just thought I'd try to elaborate on this passage from my previous post:
 2. spontaneous unfolding: no sense of having to make effort to carry out actions. This is a key point for me in distinguishing between rigpa and something very close to it. In rigpa everything happens automatically, without even the slightest possibility of Doing anything.
When not accessing rigpa, I still have some subtle sense of being, or of being a Being. I don't call it 'self' because there is little-to-no discernible sense of personality or uniqueness to it like before, just a sense of separateness and being limited to a particular body and mind. This is without any homunculus-type effect of a Watcher or Doer. There is no sense of intending to carry out actions, where it feels like the Self is giving instructions to the body from some nebulous seat in the brain. But as long as there is this subtle sense of duality, it seems I will lack the feeling of complete effortlessness and spontaneous unfolding found in rigpa.

@Rist Ei:
Sorry, I still don't really get what you're saying. I don't think it's possible to focus on a sense of 'not focusing on anything'. Also, in books like 'Carefree Dignity', it's taught that you want to rest in a state free of all concepts. Attempting to do anything from within that state would be beside the point, and of course would also cause the state to be lost.


RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/18/16 5:31 AM as a reply to B B.
Brendan B:
@Kim Katami: Thanks for the comments.

“One thing about dzogchen however is that traditional dzogchen can only be learned from a lama and there is an oath of secrecy involved. This means that were a dz-practitioner talking specifics of dz practice here, he would be violating the rules.”
There is a lot of discussion about what constitutes a samaya breach in Dzogchen here http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=984&sid=24a3c455707d591607eb2f951ba5945a. The question doesn't seem to have a clear answer, and views are apparently very divided on the topic. I personally don't see an issue if people were to discuss their practice here, assuming it's based on unrestricted Dzogchen instructions.

A lot of dz samayas are common sense + trying to give correct understanding of the dz view. However, when it comes to pointing out and cutting through instructions and the vow of secrecy, that's the stuff that is man-made, i.e. bullshit.
Brendan B:
Just thought I'd try to elaborate on this passage from my previous post:

When not accessing rigpa, I still have some subtle sense of being, or of  being a Being. I don't call it 'self' because there is little-to-no discernible sense of personality or uniqueness to it like before, just a sense of separateness and being limited to a particular body and mind. This is without any homunculus-type effect of a Watcher or Doer. There is no sense of intending to carry out actions, where it feels like the Self is giving instructions to the body from some nebulous seat in the brain. But as long as there is this subtle sense of duality, it seems I will lack the feeling of complete  effortlessness and spontaneous unfolding found in rigpa.

@Rist Ei:
Sorry, I still don't really get what you're saying. I don't think it's possible to focus on a sense of 'not focusing on anything'. Also, in
books like 'Carefree Dignity', it's taught that you want to rest in a state free of all concepts. Attempting to do anything from within that state would be beside the point, and of course would also cause the state to be lost.

Your description is good. The self at this point doesn't feel the same as "watcher" or "doer" because it is so subtle but it is self anyway.  To me it makes sense to call it a "self", even though it is subtle.

With all respect to RistEi, I also often have difficulty in understanding what he/you say. But from what I gather from above, I think he might actually be getting to some useful vipashyana to see through that subtle self. "Focus" is not the best choice of words here but if you 1. just become aware of that subtle sense of self or separateness or 2. ask/investigate is there something that is aware of this subtle sense of self or separateness, it can chop it off permanently, that is, have an insight. Of course, you can also shout something like PHET! and chop it off like that, whatever works.

Obviously, getting to a state of resting free of all concepts is the whole point. But whether we are really in this state or not, is another matter.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/19/16 10:01 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
You will become emphatic as you can relate to other people feelings and its painful place to be in. You think that its what others really are feeling. Its wrong thinking and emphaty is delusion. Relating to others can be accurate, but it itself is wrong way.

After that you become dry. You are bulletproof to sadness but easily irritable and angry and ready to point out other peoples flaws. You can now keep the anger in and defeat it by realizing that you are stupid and wrong yourself. Flaws can be accurate but thats not the point.

When you complete those two, you get one taste. You then can concentrate on sense of self. It originates from belly but cultivated from the eys. And you will become aware of breath then you do pranayama then you realize one big source of your own self, -void.

------

But when you are beginner then you start it by wishing to become superman, psyhic, saviour etc. So you will break your heart one day realizing you won't make it and then you will become emphatic...

When you are more advanged then you concentrate on thireye etc..when you are even more advanged then...

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/20/16 2:18 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I find the Omega Point article shared by Brendan B to be very interesting!

I've thought about this post for a while - specifically the question of comparing AF stuff to Dzogchen (which is definitely discussed also in other older posts buried in the forums). I don't feel like my rambling needs a new thread but to give my quick assessment I suspect that they're not related.

My AF Take

Taking the Actual Freedom Trust at its word, AF is a state of being that was discovered by an Australian meditator named Richard. I find the biography he gives of himself interesting.

He was inspired by the self-immolating monk in Vietnam and so later spent years and years on a spiritual quest that brought him to Buddhist and Hindu gurus, and he claims he eventually reached a form of enlightenment in which he was extremely full of compassion. He also spent significant lengths of time as a solitary vegan hermit living alone on sunny islands with nothing but basic possessions such as a couple shirts and a few sarongs (if I recall). Growing frustrated with the limitations of enlightenment and the inability of spiritual communities to bring about world peace, he eventually invented an entirely new way of experiencing the world (he says). He claims that he knows AF is completely novel because he has or had psychic powers - he writes on his site that by inspecting the "psychic footprints" of the universe he determined that his attainment was utterly unique and unprecedented.

Richard was also hospitalized for catatonia and was diagnosed with a variety of psychological conditions including anhedonia (inability to experience pleasure) that he believes resulted from his practice; that's worth knowing but definitely not a deal-breaker for me in terms of the value of his experiences.

AF is described in some places as a sort of "psychic suicide" - even by Richard in his own writing. The claim is that the practitioner no longer experiences emotional states or psychological states at *all* FULL STOP. They no longer arise. Visual imagination also evaporates completely, although there is an architect who claims that this does not hinder his ability to work. There is no more personal interest in harming, and there is no interest in concentration states or the siddhis - which generally seem to become either impossible or utterly undesirable to the meditator at this point. The "magisterial" quality of emotions vanishes and is replaced with a "fairy-tale" quality of direct experience of the "Actual World."

AF is supposed to be a relentlessly physical way of looking at the world. The practitioner gives themself over utterly to the body and the senses, except that they also have conditioned themselves to fiercely inspect the root-arising of every single emotion to the point where they stop appearing anymore, so the body is just a pure and undistorted physical field. It is said to be a direct and glorious way of being in the world that is completely anti-mystical.

In AF there is a lot of very heavy talk of prioritizing the 'flesh and blood' world as the only truth and reality that there is or ever can be from within AF. When Richard insists again and again that his methods and result have nothing to do with spiritual attainments and spiritual beings or the Buddha, I sorta believe him. This absolute materialism contradicts with Buddhism all over the place ranging from Trungpa saying that we should be mindful of the body while maintaining a "loose" (middle-way) relationship with it, to Mahasi Sayadaw instructing students to visualize their own decay, to the tantric Chöd practices of dis-identifying with the body we have gifted to the feast of the universe, to the Buddha summoning an illusion of a rapidly aging woman before Queen Khema.

If we take Richard as truly the sole authority on AF than almost nobody has attained it outside of himself and a small number of people he personally knows. It also seems to me like more than half of the people who have claimed AF either have had their attainment explicitly denied by Richard or their attainment turned out to be only temporary and unstable. A number of Buddhists here have also experimented with the practices (often ignoring Richard himself) with a good number obtaining some pretty cool states of being and useful shifts in consciousness, but again only very few on DhO seem to claim that they got full-blown AF and it stuck.

Mentally, AF is a state related to something called a Pure Consciousness Experience, which I guess people mistake for rigpa. There is no gross and no subtle pressure about time and future-mind in AF. Free from evil intents, the AF masters still seem positively inclined towards improving the fates of others (they do evangelize, after all) but they also claim to lack empathy and emotional compassion. There is only a spacious attention that is not constrained in any particular way, as if the periphery and the center of attention have perfectly blended forever. That last bit might sound a little Dzogchen-like. 

I remember that the AF site also alludes to something called "Actual Intimacy" which I think is something ineffable and supposedly purified within the possible relationships between two people who have AF. To put my non-AF impression out there I definitely read that as pertaining to a potentially erotic context/subtext, but maybe that was just my interpretation! There are also plenty of Buddhists who write pleasantly about enlightened sex, and in her biographies Machig Labdron performed erotic tantric practices with her own husband Topabhadra who is traditionally taken as a later emanation of Shakyamuni Buddha himself(!?) - so what can you say. 

Comparison

As for Dzogchen being related to AF, again I don't think they necessarily have much to do with each other. The spacious awareness sounds familiar but you need both tögal *and* trekchö in Dzogchen. In Dzogchen you can experience the four lamps/visions of all kinds of Buddha orbs and colors and so on - these visions are not themselves the goal but they are part of the path. Chatral Rinpoche, the recently-deceased-at-102-and-widely-revered Dzogchen super-master guy, notably wrote about his vivid experiences of the underlying Vajra-Mandala-level magical world hidden inside Yolmo Valley which relate to mystical events in its ancient history... I think that with all of that he was onto something super different than the AF stuff and that Richard would dismiss as part of a lesser world. There are countless other examples of Dzogchen masters within Vajrayana who don't look/sound/do things at all like the AF folks.

Very speculatively I'm also not even sure if you can have "visions" without whatever "visual imagination" is. In my own experiences I've seen exceedingly clear and concrete visions during various visual practices, and I've also witnessed the migration of images from my mind's eye to actual eyesight and back again. Lately I actually tend to think that the hallucations of Theravadan kasinas practice are also not 100% unrelated to the visions of Dzogchen, but that attention and concentration are operating in a completely different (anti-jhanic) way. So in AF techniques you might have a basis of method that partially overlaps with low-level Dzogchen/ati yoga but that does not develop these dimensions at all (so more similar than vs kasina/active vipassana practices, but still pretty different).

I support "experience the world around you and your body very insightfully" as good practice/life advice but from any kind of not-strictly-physicalist view I think you're giving up a lot by restricting your perception to only the "physical" world.

The descriptions that AF gives of benevolence without feelings also don't sound to me like any other accounts of fundamental bodhicitta and so: I don't think that utilitarian 'benevolence' refers to bodhicitta and it is not a Buddhist attainment.

Confusingly, I do think there are a lot of touch-points of apparent similarity amongst high-level meditators of either tradition, though the Omega Point article may already be the slamdunk already for this point. The architect who can draw without an imagination says he sees himself as just a disconnected series of events with a lot of subconscious creativity that solves his problems for him. That could match up well with the experiences of many Buddhists who are deeply into no-self and the free-fall of enlightenment. Perhaps AF techniques help nudge some people closer towards Buddhist enlightenment or they work better if you are already enlightened.

I've seen the theory that Richard himself is a very advanced practitioner of "meditation" in some sense but that he just personally has an unusual type of brain chemistry. His methods might produce potent results but his personal results may not be exactly replicable by neuro-typicals, which is a phenomenon that might be widespread throughout other traditions/methods as well in terms of how people dwell in, embody, and interpret their own enlightenment.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
9/20/16 9:10 AM as a reply to S..
How exactly Omega points view is different than actualism view? Both has rejection as a base that means not even trying to find common ground or what would be the knot there what could undie opposing forces. Both talk gibberish, some highly intelligent language, that would be a common ground or a place to start untie knots.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
10/14/16 5:54 PM as a reply to B B.
Brendan B:
@Kim Katami: Thanks for the comments.



When I access rigpa, the main characteristics of the state seem to be: 1. non-duality: absence of even a sense of being or presence. 2. spontaneous unfolding: no sense of having to make effort to carry out actions. This is a key point for me in distinguishing between rigpa and something very close to it. In rigpa everything happens automatically, without even the slightest possibility of Doing anything. 3. all thoughts "self-liberate", i.e. vanish into the expanse of non-dual awareness, within seconds of arising. Without thought the mind is very noticeably open and free of tension. 4. complete physical relaxation, such as an unclenching of any tension around the chest, which seems to lead to greater emotional sensitivity, open-heartedness, and openness to pain. 5. absence of any stress, suffering, or unpleasantness (though I haven't tested this against really intense pain or suffering).


It looks like the state of shine.
Rigpa doesnt have caracteristics like these.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
10/15/16 9:45 AM as a reply to Elantra.
rigpa wiki defines it:


Ground rigpa (Tib. གཞིའི་རིག་པ་, Wyl.gzhi'i rig pa) acts as the basis for all of samsara and nirvana, and is identical to the subtle clear light. This is the pristine awareness one experiences at the time of death, but not during the ordinary waking state. It is from this awareness that the foundation consciousness arises.[1]


The fundamental innate mind of clear light is considered to be the nature of mind, or the ultimate root of consciousness. In the same way that a sesame seed is entirely permeated by sesame oil, as soon as there is clear and aware consciousness, it is said to be permeated by the clear light rigpa. This aspect of rigpa, this in-dwelling clear light is what is called essential rigpa (Tib. ངོ་བོའི་རིག་པ་ , Wyl. ngo bo'i rig pa).[1]


The Dzogchen teachings are very precise in talking about rigpa and categorizing it with many subtle distinctions. So a distinction is made between the ground of being and the appearances of that ground, and effulgent rigpa (Tib. རྩལ་གྱི་རིག་པ་ , Wyl. rtsal gyi rig pa) is rigpa that is present in the appearances arising from the ground.[1]It’s an aspect of rigpa which is to be identified and experienced only when coarse levels of mind and conceptual thoughts are active. At that point the experience of the fundamental innate mind of clear light has ‘ceased’―‘ceased’ in the sense that it is no longer a direct object of your experience. However, there is still a definite quality of clarity and awareness that permeates the coarser states of consciousness. This type of clear light experienced as a quality that permeates these states is the effulgent rigpa.[2]

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
10/15/16 10:51 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Hi BB,

 

 

- I don't mean any disrespect but I think what the orthodox dzogchen people say about rigpa, in this regard, that it's rare, difficult etc. is an exaggeration.

> It's said to be highly unusual if not impossible to access rigpa without Direct Introduction from a Dzogchen teacher, according to ChNN. With that said, I may be an unusual case having already experienced profound perceptual transformations via basic Theravadin samatha and vipassana techniques.

- I have an issue when it is said that only dzogchenpa's know rigpa, and only dzogchen-teachers can give direct introduction to it. This is plain stoopid and narrow minded. Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of dzogchen and consider myself a dzogchen-practitioner, not the orthodox-kind, though. Having said this rigpa and sem/mind are not so easy to distinguish as is often said. My observation as a teacher giving pointing out instructions is that people without solid training history, shamath and vipashyana, simply don't get it. Whether one gets it or not depends on previous training, i.e. purity of mind.


You can only be a dzogchen practitioner if you work with a dzogchen master's transmission .
Since you are not a dzogchen practitioner you would be forgiven in thinking that you are one.


Just one little clarification.
Lots of people experience for brief moments rigpa and they are in the knowledge of their own primordial state but they don't know what that is.They discard it as a peculiarity or an ephemeral pleasant experience.
For them to understand and have a grasp of what that experience was they have to be introduced with explanations ,words , expressions and examples to the meaning of that and this is called oral transmission.




RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
10/15/16 10:54 AM as a reply to Elantra.

Kim Katami:
Hi BB,

 

 

- I don't mean any disrespect but I think what the orthodox dzogchen people say about rigpa, in this regard, that it's rare, difficult etc. is an exaggeration.

> It's said to be highly unusual if not impossible to access rigpa without Direct Introduction from a Dzogchen teacher, according to ChNN. With that said, I may be an unusual case having already experienced profound perceptual transformations via basic Theravadin samatha and vipassana techniques.

- I have an issue when it is said that only dzogchenpa's know rigpa, and only dzogchen-teachers can give direct introduction to it. This is plain stoopid and narrow minded. Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of dzogchen and consider myself a dzogchen-practitioner, not the orthodox-kind, though. Having said this rigpa and sem/mind are not so easy to distinguish as is often said. My observation as a teacher giving pointing out instructions is that people without solid training history, shamath and vipashyana, simply don't get it. Whether one gets it or not depends on previous training, i.e. purity of mind.








RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
10/15/16 12:19 PM as a reply to Elantra.
Elantra:

Kim Katami: - I have an issue when it is said that only dzogchenpa's know rigpa, and only dzogchen-teachers can give direct introduction to it. This is plain stoopid and narrow minded. Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of dzogchen and consider myself a dzogchen-practitioner, not the orthodox-kind, though. Having said this rigpa and sem/mind are not so easy to distinguish as is often said. My observation as a teacher giving pointing out instructions is that people without solid training history, shamath and vipashyana, simply don't get it. Whether one gets it or not depends on previous training, i.e. purity of mind.


Elantra: You can only be a dzogchen practitioner if you work with a dzogchen master's transmission .
Since you are not a dzogchen practitioner you would be forgiven in thinking that you are one.


Just one little clarification.
Lots of people experience for brief moments rigpa and they are in the knowledge of their own primordial state but they don't know what that is.They discard it as a peculiarity or an ephemeral pleasant experience.
For them to understand and have a grasp of what that experience was they have to be introduced with explanations ,words , expressions and examples to the meaning of that and this is called oral transmission.


Sometimes I'm forgiven, sometimes I'm thrown to terrible karmic hells by orthodox dz folks. Lol.

If it matters, I do work with a dz lama. It is refreshing to find a person who has gone through the whole trad training with all the great masters of the old Tibetan generation who thinks that there is a lot to improve in dz trad.

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
10/15/16 12:39 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Elantra:

Kim Katami: - I have an issue when it is said that only dzogchenpa's know rigpa, and only dzogchen-teachers can give direct introduction to it. This is plain stoopid and narrow minded. Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of dzogchen and consider myself a dzogchen-practitioner, not the orthodox-kind, though. Having said this rigpa and sem/mind are not so easy to distinguish as is often said. My observation as a teacher giving pointing out instructions is that people without solid training history, shamath and vipashyana, simply don't get it. Whether one gets it or not depends on previous training, i.e. purity of mind.


Elantra: You can only be a dzogchen practitioner if you work with a dzogchen master's transmission .
Since you are not a dzogchen practitioner you would be forgiven in thinking that you are one.


Just one little clarification.
Lots of people experience for brief moments rigpa and they are in the knowledge of their own primordial state but they don't know what that is.They discard it as a peculiarity or an ephemeral pleasant experience.
For them to understand and have a grasp of what that experience was they have to be introduced with explanations ,words , expressions and examples to the meaning of that and this is called oral transmission.


Sometimes I'm forgiven, sometimes I'm thrown to terrible karmic hells by orthodox dz folks. Lol.

If it matters, I do work with a dz lama. It is refreshing to find a person who has gone through the whole trad training with all the great masters of the old Tibetan generation who thinks that there is a lot to improve in dz trad.

If you can work with a dzogchen lama is very good.
Just dont step on Malcolm's toes. emoticon

RE: General recommendation of Dzogchen to DhO practitioners
Answer
11/13/16 1:53 PM as a reply to B B.
I have found two passages that address the confusion I express below:
The most difficult to understand is how it's possible to function normally in the world in this state, as typically when I can access rigpa I'm sitting still and my mind comes to rest almost in a state of “superposition”, without focusing on anything. The few occasions where I could possibly speculate that I was experiencing genuine rigpa outside of a sit, I wasn't doing anything mentally demanding, just walking down a street or in a park. It seemed like I could still recognise my surroundings, but that my mind no longer drew clear divisions between objects. That is as much as I'm able to say.  
1. Note 373 in part 1 of Buddhism & Dzogchen by Elias Capriles. Freely available online here. Highly recommended.
What is progressively neutralized by the repeated spontaneous liberation of delusion is the power of
delusory valuation to sustain concepts rather than the manifestation of concepts themselves. However,
when concepts manifest but there is absolutely no delusory valuation they can no longer be called
concepts. At any rate, the final realization of Dzogchen while the body is still alive is the manifestation of
concepts beyond any delusory valuation whatsoever; therefore the individual automatically makes the
distinctions that are necessary for life, but does so without experiencing fire as fire, water as water, the
floor as floor, shoes as shoes, and so on.
2. The Essence of Wisdom: How to Sustain the Face of Rigpa by Mipham Rinpoche. Also freely available from here. The collection of short Dzogchen texts available at that site can be downloaded as a PDF. A Lamp to Dispel Darkness by Mipham Jampal Dorje is especially recommended as it's a really nice, short presentation of the standard introductory Dzogchen practice instructions found in the books mentioned in the OP. For anyone interested in Dzogchen and eager to start practicing, it contains most of the essential points necessary.
At first, refine your understanding until, through the guru’s instructions, you come
to see the actual face of rigpa, nakedly and without intellectual speculation. Once you
have arrived at certainty, it is crucially important that you sustain rigpa’s essence by
yourself. Mere recognition is insufficient; you must develop its strength. Moreover,
although you might recognise rigpa in the beginning, unless you settle in that
recognition, it will soon be interrupted by thoughts, making it difficult to experience
the naked, unadulterated rigpa. So, at this stage it is crucial that you settle without
blocking or indulging thoughts, and rest repeatedly, and for periods of increasing
duration, in an experience of uncontrived, pure awareness. Once you have
familiarised yourself with this again and again, the waves of thought will weaken
and the face of rigpa that you are sustaining will grow clearer. During meditation
remain in this experience for as long as you can, and in post-meditation maintain the
mindfulness of recalling the face of rigpa. If you can familiarise with this the strength
of rigpa will increase. Thoughts will continue to arise at first, but, without having to
resort to any other remedy in order to stop them, they will be freed by themselves in
an instant simply by leaving them as they are—like a snake uncoiling its own knots
by itself. Then, with further familiarity, rising thoughts will continue to bring some
slight disturbance but will dissolve immediately by themselves, like writing on water.
As you become still more familiar with this state, you will reach a point at which
rising thoughts no longer have any effect at all, and you have no hope or fear about
their arising or non-arising. This experience beyond benefit and harm is likened to a
thief entering an empty house. By continuing to familiarise yourself with this, you
will reach the level of perfect strength, at which point thoughts and the ālaya,
together with any tendency to produce movement in the mind, all dissolve into
unaltered dharmakāya, and rigpa is secure in its own place. Just as you might search
for ordinary earth and stones on an island of gold, without ever finding them, the
whole of appearance and existence, without exception, arises as a dharmakāya realm,
in which purity is all-encompassing. This is known as ‘gaining stability’, the point at
which any hopes and anxieties about saṃsāra and nirvāṇa or birth and death are
eradicated entirely.

I am also uncertain about whether I am experiencing rigpa or a base-of-all state. However, I have come across some interesting passages recently which have given me increased confidence that it is rigpa.

1. Note 379 in part 1 of Buddhism & Dzogchen by Elias Capriles.
If, upon the sudden shining forth of ngowo shi, we do not react with an attempt to take as object the essence or ngowo aspect of this awareness and recognize it in terms of concepts, but instead a nondual,
non-conceptual reGnition makes patent rigpa’s own face (rangngo shepa [rang-ngo shes-pa]), this is rigpa-qua-Path manifesting as the dharmakaya: an unveiling of the true nature of spontaneous awareness, with
the emphasis on its ngowo aspect, which is the first level of realization in Dzogchen Atiyoga, and which is
also the initial manifestation of the renowned chikshe kundröl [gcik-shes kun-grol] or “all-liberating single
gnosis” in the condition of (1) nirvana, upon which thoughts liberate themselves spontaneously. This
gnosis is all-liberating because when it unveils there manifests no (illusory) distance between a perceiver
and something perceived, and therefore the spurious perceiver’s clinging to the perceived that throughout
samsara inhibits spontaneous liberation cannot occur, and as a result all that arises liberates upon arising.
However, the all-liberating function of this gnosis is inhibited not only in samsara, but also in the
condition of the base-of-all in which neither samsara nor nirvana are manifest
: though in the condition of the base-of-all samsara (and therefore the spurious perceiver’s clinging of the to the perceived) is not
manifest, this gnosis has not unveiled; contrariwise, its all-liberating character has been inhibited by the
obscuration of this very gnosis by the contingent, beclouding element of stupefaction that was referred to
above. (In fact, just before Awakening Shakyamuni was resting in the meditative absorption of the baseof-
all; his Awakening is said to have taken place when, upon seeing the morning star, the reGnition of
Awake awareness manifested in his continuum, giving rise to nirvana.)
As I said, in the state I'm experiencing all thoughts and concepts vanish soon after arising, or as soon as they arise. This phenomenon of thoughts “self-liberating” is one that is often described in relation to rigpa.

2. A Lamp to Dispel Darkness by Mipham Jampal Dorje
When you leave your mind in a state of natural rest, without thinking any particular
thought, and at the same time maintain some kind of mindfulness, you can
experience a state of vacant, neutral, apathetic indifference, called “lungmaten”, (a
‘no-man’s land’), where your consciousness is dull and blank.

[…]

You could also say that the state of mental blankness we looked at earlier is
indescribable, but it lacks decisiveness, since you are completely unable to describe it
in any way. Rigpa, on the other hand, is in essence indescribable, but at the same
time it has a decisive quality that cuts through any doubt about what is indescribable.
So there is a huge difference between these two kinds of indescribability, like the
difference between blindness and perfect vision.
This covers the crucial point of distinguishing between the ālaya and the dharmakāya.
I don't believe what I'm experiencing lacks decisiveness. Certainly there is a huge difference between an ordinary blank state of mind and what I'm calling rigpa, in that the former still contains subtle concepts, whereas the latter lacks concepts and has a feeling of cutting through to the most fundamental bedrock of mind. 

Currently, the experience of accessing rigpa is much less intense or impressive than it used to be. I have gotten used to it, so it is probably easier for me to take it for granted and have doubts about it. However, I do sometimes have the feeling when beginning or ending a sit that there is no greater form of “meditation” than this, due to the clarity of the state, the effortlessness of the practice, and the self-liberating effect it has on mental arisings. 

@Sid Thanks for the well-written post!
Chatral Rinpoche, the recently-deceased-at-102-and-widely-revered Dzogchen super-master guy, notably wrote about his vivid experiences of the underlying Vajra-Mandala-level magical world hidden inside Yolmo Valley which relate to mystical events in its ancient history
Sounds interesting! Could you provide the source for this?