A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Noah D 12/14/16 9:08 PM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup bernd the broter 12/15/16 6:13 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Chris M 12/15/16 6:59 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Noah D 12/15/16 9:43 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Noah D 12/15/16 9:42 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Doctor Avocado 12/15/16 8:13 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Chris M 12/15/16 8:39 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Noah D 12/15/16 9:46 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup bernd the broter 12/16/16 9:45 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup (D Z) Dhru Val 12/16/16 11:40 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Noah D 12/20/16 8:45 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Banned For waht? 12/21/16 6:25 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Banned For waht? 12/21/16 6:31 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Daniel M. Ingram 12/22/16 1:54 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Chris M 12/22/16 7:48 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup shargrol 12/22/16 8:33 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Chris M 12/22/16 10:19 AM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Noah D 12/23/16 12:59 PM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Chris M 12/23/16 1:19 PM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Noah D 12/23/16 5:44 PM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup T DC 1/12/17 1:03 PM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Noah D 1/12/17 2:13 PM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Causes & Conditions 1/12/17 4:17 PM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Noah D 1/12/17 4:54 PM
RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup Banned For waht? 1/14/17 7:51 AM
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 12/14/16 9:08 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/14/16 9:04 PM

A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

Posts: 1198 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
I remain interested in a hardcore approach to the Wisdom and Morality axes separately, as well as how they integrate & synergize.  One big Morality issue is human sexuality and romantic relationships.  I'd like to attempt a logically-sequenced exploration of this here.

1. Spirituality includes Morality, Concentration & Wisdom.  These can be thought of as separate axes.
2. A pragmatic approach to spirituality focuses on relieving suffering.
3. Suffering occurs on many levels, including fundamental duality (to which the Wisdom axis pertains).
4. On the Morality axis, suffering can be grouped into a handful of major issues that humans deal with.  
5. One of these issues is sexuality and romantic relationships.  
          a) (Let "dating" = "sexuality and romantic relationships" from here on out.)
6. Individual studies of this topic could be analyzed on a spectrum from a) personal connectivity to b) impersonal skill.
7. The personal-connection end of the spectrum tends to be stressed in most human societies.  
          a) This is the only option that most people ever consider.  They meet people and make decisions based on compatability, not based on how good they (and the other) are at socializing. 
8. The impersonal-skill end of the spectrum tends to be ignored or marginalized.  
          a) This would be consider "tacky," "sleazy," "unnatural," etc. by most people.  It involves taking responsibility for behavior beyond "just being oneself" and realizing that there are objectively better and worse ways to communicate.  
          b) (Let "skills = "impersonal skills" from here on out.)
9.  For a spiritual system, technique or path to reliably remove suffering for a variety of people, skill must be possible.  (Or else there would be a different spiritual system for everyone who has ever lived.)
10.  Morality is part of all spiritual systems, thus the acquisition of skill (for the relief of suffering in this area) in terms of dating is possible and necessary.
11.  Skill involves both internal and external habits.
12.  Skills build on each other and progress, thus some type of map is possible and useful.  
13.  Skills build towards goals.  There are 3 basic types of goals in terms of dating:
          a) Abstinence/Not-Dating
          b) Monogamy
          c) Dating multiple partners
14.  I believe that dating multiple partners is the most prevelant in terms of suffering-reduction for the following reasons:
          a) When both parties have a high enough degree of ego-development, personal connection can boost spirituality in the sense that it greatly relieves suffering.  These types of relationships are extremely rare.
          b) The sex drive generally includes the desire to have varied partners.
          c) The sex drive never goes away completely, as shown by myriad guru-scandals.
          d) Many people (majority?) are in relationships for reasons that arise from deep pockets of suffering.  For the counter-example to this, see option a.  

          e) All dating is influenced by artifical social rules which cause suffering.  However, I believe that artifical social rules have more sway over monogamy than dating multiple partners, since monogamy is aligned with traditional social values.  Thus dating multiple partners is one way to practice freedom from rules on the level of conduct.
          f) Dating multiple partners forces one to become increasingly adept at practicing non-harm because it continuously introduces new challenges to avoid hurting others.  Non-harm is the interpersonal "arm" of Morality training.  
15.  Because spirituality involves becoming free from artifical rules, it necessarily moves in the direction of dealing with objective conditions as-they-are.  
16.  To practice dating multiple partners skillfully, one must deal with conditions as-they-are, which must necessarily involve a mapping of human interpersonal patterns.  This has been summarized as "pickup," which may be consider a sleazy, subculture, but only when practiced incorrectly.  
17.  The practice of pickup can be mapped and categorized in a manner consistent with other spiritual trainings.  My attempt at a map follows:

1.  Inner game: Heal psychodynamics, gain self-acceptance & confidence.
          a) Detachment + contentment
2.  Lifestyle: Diet/Excercise, Hobbies, Knowledge, Career, Home, Etc.
3.  Logistics 
4.  The social interaction - via the Emotional Progression Model
          a) Approach
          b) Attaction 
          c) Qualification 
          d) Comfort
          e) Seduction 
          g) Future Interactions
5.  The training - Involving the arc of skill-formation over time (a fractal, perhaps??)
5.  Life after training: Enjoy experience free from rules
          a) Help others become free from rules.
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bernd the broter, modified 5 Years ago at 12/15/16 6:13 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/15/16 6:13 AM

RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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Dude, it is my impression that you make this more complicated than necessary 8 D
(If there is an actual argument in this wall of statements, I'm not sure what it is. Are you trying to 'defend' the poly-approach from its more conservative critics or something else?)
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Chris M, modified 5 Years ago at 12/15/16 6:59 AM
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RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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Maybe that's all a very complicated way to justify the desire to pick up women  emoticon
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Doctor Avocado, modified 5 Years ago at 12/15/16 8:13 AM
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RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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Another critical point is that we can minimize net suffering by maximizing partners. This is why I have 163 female partners. Statistically speaking, 99.99% of men within the population have less chakras open than me, so a strictly quantitative cost benefit analysis of my emotional/spiritual sensitivity weighted against their potential for net happiness gain + net suffering reduction by dating other men is strongly in my favour. For this reason, I insist they are all monogomous to me to reduce their present and future suffering. Important to note is that my interest is not sexual in nature. If sexuality arises in one of my 163 partners, it is sometimes necessary to undertake the personal sacrifice of having sex with them, in order so that this desire passes and allows them space to pursue their higher spiritual goals. Furthermore, the longer their monogomous relationship with me is, the more potential for emotional harm they incur through potential seduction by men with fewer active chakras. Therefore, I keep them all imprisoned within a purpose-built 163 room castle in the most remote highlands of Scotland. I feel that this situation minimizes suffering for all of us, so I am happy to continue it and am in full agreement with any model that confirms it. 

-Wing
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Chris M, modified 5 Years ago at 12/15/16 8:39 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/15/16 8:39 AM

RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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Sure -- that would be the Highly Acessible Realization Eliminating Method, otherwise known as HAREM.
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 12/15/16 9:42 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/15/16 9:41 AM

RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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bernd the broter:
Dude, it is my impression that you make this more complicated than necessary 8 D
(If there is an actual argument in this wall of statements, I'm not sure what it is. Are you trying to 'defend' the poly-approach from its more conservative critics or something else?)
Based on divorce rates and human nature in general, I would say that people do not make it complicated enough.  Part of what I am criticizing is the "just be natural/ just be yourself" approach that oh-so-many men and women I have talked to have.  Yet they cheat on their partners, get divorced, have twisted fantasies, and let their relationships become overrun with psychodramas.

I am not trying to deny human nature, but I am also not trying to abandon the possibility on improving current ways of doing things.  A middle way, if you will.

Edit: And yes, obviously my statements are colored by my own past experiences, both good and bad.  This is unavoidable and does not necessarily decrease the validity of my points.  
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 12/15/16 9:43 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/15/16 9:43 AM

RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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Chris Marti:
Maybe that's all a very complicated way to justify the desire to pick up women  emoticon
This is a part of it.  But I also think I've made some valid points.  

Discussions about integration of pragmatic panna and pragmatic sila are rare on these boards.  Too bad...
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 12/15/16 9:46 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/15/16 9:46 AM

RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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Wing Biddlebaum:
Another critical point is that we can minimize net suffering by maximizing partners. This is why I have 163 female partners. Statistically speaking, 99.99% of men within the population have less chakras open than me, so a strictly quantitative cost benefit analysis of my emotional/spiritual sensitivity weighted against their potential for net happiness gain + net suffering reduction by dating other men is strongly in my favour. For this reason, I insist they are all monogomous to me to reduce their present and future suffering. Important to note is that my interest is not sexual in nature. If sexuality arises in one of my 163 partners, it is sometimes necessary to undertake the personal sacrifice of having sex with them, in order so that this desire passes and allows them space to pursue their higher spiritual goals. Furthermore, the longer their monogomous relationship with me is, the more potential for emotional harm they incur through potential seduction by men with fewer active chakras. Therefore, I keep them all imprisoned within a purpose-built 163 room castle in the most remote highlands of Scotland. I feel that this situation minimizes suffering for all of us, so I am happy to continue it and am in full agreement with any model that confirms it. 

-Wing
ROFL, I appreciate the satirical hyperbole.  But Wing, why don't you talk about your own experiences in relationships?  Are you single, married, divorced?  How has your practice benefited or hurt these relationships?  Do you have path attainments and the nondual perceptual baseline that comes with them?  If so, how has this affected your emotional life and communication patterns with others?

Any input would be appreciated.
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bernd the broter, modified 5 Years ago at 12/16/16 9:45 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/16/16 9:45 AM

RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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Wing Biddlebaum:
Another critical point is that we can minimize net suffering by maximizing partners. This is why I have 163 female partners. Statistically speaking, 99.99% of men within the population have less chakras open than me, so a strictly quantitative cost benefit analysis of my emotional/spiritual sensitivity weighted against their potential for net happiness gain + net suffering reduction by dating other men is strongly in my favour. For this reason, I insist they are all monogomous to me to reduce their present and future suffering. Important to note is that my interest is not sexual in nature. If sexuality arises in one of my 163 partners, it is sometimes necessary to undertake the personal sacrifice of having sex with them, in order so that this desire passes and allows them space to pursue their higher spiritual goals. Furthermore, the longer their monogomous relationship with me is, the more potential for emotional harm they incur through potential seduction by men with fewer active chakras. Therefore, I keep them all imprisoned within a purpose-built 163 room castle in the most remote highlands of Scotland. I feel that this situation minimizes suffering for all of us, so I am happy to continue it and am in full agreement with any model that confirms it. 

-Wing

This must be one of the funniest posts on DhO.
The one thing I don't get is the number 163.
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(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 5 Years ago at 12/16/16 11:40 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/16/16 11:22 AM

RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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Noah D:

14.  I believe that dating multiple partners is the most prevelant in terms of suffering-reduction for the following reasons:
          a) When both parties have a high enough degree of ego-development, personal connection can boost spirituality in the sense that it greatly relieves suffering.  These types of relationships are extremely rare.
          b) The sex drive generally includes the desire to have varied partners.
          c) The sex drive never goes away completely, as shown by myriad guru-scandals.
          d) Many people (majority?) are in relationships for reasons that arise from deep pockets of suffering.  For the counter-example to this, see option a.  

          e) All dating is influenced by artifical social rules which cause suffering.  However, I believe that artifical social rules have more sway over monogamy than dating multiple partners, since monogamy is aligned with traditional social values.  Thus dating multiple partners is one way to practice freedom from rules on the level of conduct.
          f) Dating multiple partners forces one to become increasingly adept at practicing non-harm because it continuously introduces new challenges to avoid hurting others.  Non-harm is the interpersonal "arm" of Morality training.  

I don't think dating multiple partners is necessarily good or bad, but I think you are being unfair to monogamy and abstinance.

Some counter points in relation to monogamy below:

1) Addressing points a & d:
If you think having a successful monogamous relationship that doesn't come from a place of suffering takes a high level of ego development etc. Then a successful polyarmours relationship that doesn't cause added suffering for all parties would require even more ego-development etc.

Feelings of attachment and jealousy towards sexual partners who you have invested a lot of time and energy if the norm not the exception.

2) Addressing point e:
Not sure how you can say that following artificial rules causes suffering. Following rules or adherence to societal norms, don't necessarily increase suffering. It can go either way depending on how functional or dysfunctional the rule or norm is.

3) Addressing point f:
Not sure how it 'forces you', you can definitely date multple partners without attempting to practice non-harm. I went through a period where I would only have sex with a particular woman once. Attempting to practice non-harm did not change how they felt afterwards (which varied from person to person), it did make my 'game' a lot worse.

4) Addressing point b and c:
Desire for variety, as well as overall sex drive varies from person to person. I am not sure how this can be solved (see my point #1, for why poly relationships don't solve this). Most people also have some desire for security, commitment, and intimacy within relationships. 

5) Overall:
You are focued on interpersonal morality, and seem to be taking an abundance of wealth, technology, and civilization for granted. People in wealthy nations with a great deal of material surplus can perhaps afford to think in this manner, however people in poor nations cannot.

Monogamy has historically been better for civilizational and technological development which has in turn reduced suffering overall. 

--------------------------------------
On a more pesonal and practical level.

I am not sure to what extent this is an abstract exercize for you and to what extent you are living it.

If it is an abstract exercize, then you are clearly interested in dating multiple partners, you should definitely try it and see if you like it compared to other forms of relationship or compared to celibacy.

Don't worry about its percieved sleaziness, or about complex moral considerations. Do use common sense and decency. 

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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 12/20/16 8:45 AM
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RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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To emphasize the broader point I wanted to make with OP, I think similar arguments need to be constructed for monogamy & abstinence/not-dating.  I'd like to start to construct these but would appreciate input from others.  Obviously not-dating, monogamy, and multiple-partners each have their advantages and disadvantages.

Firstly, to truly synergize with perceptual shifts, all three options require a high degree of ego development, but perhaps a different balancing of factors and/or different sequence of development (i.e. not-dating deals in abolishing loneliness, monogamy deals in amplifying love, etc.).  Also, with regards to monogamy, the yin/feminine side of things must be honored.  In other words, the full spectrum of emotional participation must be included, yet dealt with on a higher level.  Perhaps in a tantric sense, whereby emotions are experienced non-dually.  

A peripheral topic would be how the vehicles diverge on this: arhats uproot, bodhisattvas service, siddhas transmute.  The uprooting method works best for me, so I tend to view each relationship option through this lense, but I have no doubt that each option could be viewed through the methods of each vehicle.  

Thoughts?
Banned For waht?, modified 5 Years ago at 12/21/16 6:25 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/21/16 6:11 AM

RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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the state what people usually call trolling, it is coming my baseline, using your expression of baseline.

also when you get a female and be with it little longer then it comes your baseline and you are not abel to tell the difference where it begins or ends and there is just a thing or object, you will still need t omake a decision either you be with it or try something new, you will have teh same dilemma as you had before, nothing change.

When you move on from being with females, be celibte on that aspect you will have that same(dilemma) issue with some other object.

There is this issue, can anyone help me?
Banned For waht?, modified 5 Years ago at 12/21/16 6:31 AM
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RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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also, if i would respond to every your thought or point you made, is that called conversation? and is not trolling, or aöslgjhsgöalsgdhaleuheösulh
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 5 Years ago at 12/22/16 1:54 AM
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RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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I think that when approaching a potential dating partner, talking strictly in outline form will be a big hit. I think that most potential partners would very much appreciate being a carefully considered object of a rigorous analytical practice.

For all other advice on these subjects, I personally read Dan Savage at Savage Love. I am pretty sure the Buddha wouldn't approve, as he viewed the world as on fire with the lust of desire, and he was not entirely crazy in this regard.

Still, Lust for Enlightenment, by John Stevens, makes for fun reading on the topic of how various Buddhists have related to the same question. 
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Chris M, modified 5 Years ago at 12/22/16 7:48 AM
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Funny!

I recall being a young man in my late teens and early 20's and driven almost to insanity by hormonal urges. This kind of energy can manifest in many ways and can be channeled into lots of activities, from analyzing dating practices to writing great novels to world class athletic achievement to deep meditative accomplishment.
shargrol, modified 5 Years ago at 12/22/16 8:33 AM
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Don't forget drinking alcoholic beverages. It can also lead to drinking alcoholic beverages.
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Chris M, modified 5 Years ago at 12/22/16 10:19 AM
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RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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I didn't forget alcohol (or drugs) - I was just trying to keep things positive  emoticon
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 12/23/16 12:59 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/23/16 12:59 PM

RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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Chris Marti:
Funny!

I recall being a young man in my late teens and early 20's and driven almost to insanity by hormonal urges. This kind of energy can m  anifest in many ways and can be channeled   into lots of activities, from analyzing dating practices to writing great novels to world class athletic achievement to deep meditative accomplishment.

Lol.  I suppose I'll give up on this thread now.  When humor, but not actual participation in ones OP, is the only thing that arises, it's usually a sign that OP wasn't such a good idea after all.
 
Ultimately, my understanding has been both internally healing and externally the cause of great enjoyment, which is where the value of it lies.  The insight here is that it isn't worth attempting to communicate.
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Chris M, modified 5 Years ago at 12/23/16 1:19 PM
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RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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Noah, maybe this is an opportunity to look into why humor was the predominant response here. This is just a suggestion, of course, meant to be helpful. Ignore it if you wish.
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 12/23/16 5:44 PM
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RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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Chris Marti:
Noah, maybe this is an opportunity to look into why humor was the predominant response here. This is just a suggestion, of course, meant to be helpful. Ignore it if you wish.
 
I do agree with this.  It is a helpful hint that others may not share my views.  While I don't necessarily ascribe to the idea that they are lifestage-based as you suggested (I'm not a teenager anymore), it is generally helpful to take individual circumstance (also culture, class, etc) into account.

And of course, taking a step back to appreciate the absurdity of human experience is a worthwhile lens to engage.
T DC, modified 5 Years ago at 1/12/17 1:03 PM
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What about love, man?  (Serious question.)
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 1/12/17 2:13 PM
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T DC:
What about love, man?  (Serious question.)

From a psychology free of rules, love and sex are both allowed to come and go, to flow freely.  I have yet to attain this, but I know people who have.

edit:  the problem with my OP was that I didn't make my point, which is freedom from rules/traveling lighter and how this might look on the ground level if it was done successfully.  Fwiw, I know very few who have successfully combined this type x axis (morality) integration with y axis/path shifts.  So I'll continue to beat the drum of integration and others can continue to mock the idea! emoticon
Causes & Conditions, modified 5 Years ago at 1/12/17 4:17 PM
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Not sure I entirely follow everything you're saying, but I do think it is an interesting conversation, and I wanted to add my two cents.

I personally think that you're wrong when you make the argument that a relationship with multiple partners leads to the least amount of suffering.

I think that what determines your suffering in a given situation is the amount of wisdom (knoweldge of the three characteristics & 4 noble truths) you bring to it.

It's fundimental ignorance that is the problem, not what you are actually doing (to a certain extent).

If you have multiple partners and are constantly searching for a new one, believing that if you just get a new partner that you will be complete, it won't work. That is the dukkha motherload.

If you have multiple partners and are able to not use them as vehicles for total happiness and don't identify them as "yours" in a way that would lead to emotional pain, than it could work.

Similarly, if you have one partner, the similar issues exist. If you think that your partner will make you "happy," things are bound to go south cuz nothing impermanent leads to satisfaction (the will die or change).

On the same token, if you think celibacy will lead to fulfillment (true hapiness), that's gonna be a rough, because that true fufilment doesn't exist.

I think the Buddha prescribed celibacy for monks because it seemed like the lesser of three evils. In celibacy, you don't have someone to imprint on with your delusions about happiness.

Full disclosure: I have a girlfriend, and I at least try to not invest in the idea that she could fill the hole in my heart (the hole we all have). But I also don't think that me seeking out more sexual experiences with other women would be anymore effective in doing that.

To summarize: I think the question is how much wisdom can you bring to your chosen path. Easier said then done, even for the great masters.  But still. 
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 1/12/17 4:54 PM
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@causes and conditions: Well said.  I agree.  

And part of bringing wisdom to ones chosen course of action (as you outlined it) is getting path shifts, so that part or all of fundamental misperception is cleaned up and positive states of mind manifest more easily.  Integrating the 3 characteristics on the levels of behavior and emotion can then serve as a sort of "platform" upon which to enjoy whatever nondual baseline one has.  Hopefully that sort of makes sense.  That was the real point of my OP.  Integration.
Banned For waht?, modified 5 Years ago at 1/14/17 7:51 AM
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RE: A Pragmatic Morality Perspective On Pickup

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basically you have triggers what are not morally accepted in this society?

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