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After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?

After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/19/16 12:17 PM
Recently I read on Ron Crouch's site:

Finally, if you are like most people you will be able to call up fruitions starting in review. This means that you do not have to go through the stages and up to equanimity to have a cessation. This takes a little practice, and once you have it mastered you will be able to simply dip right into to a cessation for an instant, wherever you are, anytime. This can be a great perk of the path. However, not everyone can do this after first path. I could not do it until third path for some reason, so don’t worry if it isn’t available to you.

Just wondering, for those who have attained First Path, if they could chime in with whether this was true for them or not. Specifically trying to gauge whether 1) if it really is most people, and 2) if it really is "wherever you are, anytime." I don't doubt Ron's experience in practice or teaching, just surprised to read this—haven't heard it stated so definitively like this before.

I've experienced a half-dozen Fruitions in the last couple weeks since attaining First Path, but all except for one were 1) while meditating and 2) after 45 minutes or longer. I've attempted to "call up" a Fruition off the cushion, but have had no luck. Also, after the first, my Fruitions were all during review, which is now—as of the end of last week—over.

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/19/16 11:46 AM as a reply to Chris O..
Yes for me.

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/19/16 1:10 PM as a reply to Chris O..
i don't have fruitions as they are usually described.  that said there is a psycho-physical phenomena i can call up with just a slight tilt 'inward'.  it is an energetic "rush" which ends in an unknowing event and is followed by a bliss wave and pleasant after effects.

this has been accessible to me since august 2011 during a retreat.  a guy, tommy, from this site said at the time that it was stream entry but i was not certain.

since then i have had some pretty major changes including very accesible jhana states and a very serious diminuition of daily stress.

there..just called it up. nice.  fruition?  maybe.

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/21/16 5:28 AM as a reply to Chris O..
For me: no.

I do get spontaneous fruitions out of the blue in daily life, particularly if I am practicing vipassana regularly.

However, to get one voluntarily, I still have to sit formally. I may be able to skip several nanas, but I need to do some work from inside Equanimity. It takes me at least 15 minutes on average, I would say. What I do have some control on, is the specific door I will go through. No-self and impermanence in particular; dukkha less so.

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/21/16 6:05 AM as a reply to Chris O..
i still don't get it what fruitions you guys spoke about? or the cessations?

or what is the equanimity?

single words mean nothing, so please can i get proper definition what has a taste of reality, like everyone could understand, also those who don't have the ability to read.

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/21/16 9:56 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
sfg sgd:
i still don't get it what fruitions you guys spoke about? or the cessations?


Phalañana or "Knowledge of Fruition" is the 15th nana in numbering from MCTB.

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+15.+Fruition

There is a distinction between the "big", path-level cessations, of which one can get only up to four, and the "small", repeat cessations, that one usually gets after getting the first "real" cessation.

Some teachers reserve the term "cessation" for the path-level events and "fruition" for the smaller, repeat ones. Here, on this forum, most people seem to use the terms interchangeably, and you have to understand what one is talking about by context.


sfg sgd:
or what is the equanimity?

What we are talking about here is Sankhārupekkhāñāna, or "Knowledge of Equanimity about Formations". The 11th nana in the numbering from MCTB:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+11.+Equanimity

Not to be confused with equanimity proper (upekkha), which is, roughly speaking, a mental quality or state, and appears in a bunch of different lists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upekkha


Hope this helps emoticon

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/21/16 10:48 AM as a reply to Chris O..
Chris O.:

Just wondering, for those who have attained First Path, if they could chime in with whether this was true for them or not. Specifically trying to gauge whether 1) if it really is most people, and 2) if it really is "wherever you are, anytime." I don't doubt Ron's experience in practice or teaching, just surprised to read this—haven't heard it stated so definitively like this before.

I've experienced a half-dozen Fruitions in the last couple weeks since attaining First Path, but all except for one were 1) while meditating and 2) after 45 minutes or longer. I've attempted to "call up" a Fruition off the cushion, but have had no luck. Also, after the first, my Fruitions were all during review, which is now—as of the end of last week—over.



I had a very similar question right after getting stream entry a 5 years ago.

I couldn't initially call up cessasstions, but after following some ideas / instructions from Daniel Ingram and Nikolai in the thread linked below, I was able to call them up...
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2408532

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/22/16 1:45 AM as a reply to Chris O..
The skills in Fruition vary widely between practitioners and their phases of practice.

In early Review, many will have a hard time calling up Fruitions, but not all.

As Review progresses, particularly on retreat, Fruitions tend to get a lot easier.

As Review becomes fully mature, Fruitions tend to be easy, but not for all.

As the new stages of insight begin to show up, Fruitions can get harder, particularly after the A&P and in the next Dark Night.

Some people are just naturally talented in various ways regarding Fruitions and some are not.

Some people can call them up easily without much setup. Some require meditation to cycle up through the stages of insight.

Some people can get multiples, meaning they get a Fruition then incline back and get more in relatively rapid succession. Some find that one Fruition satisfies and getting repeats or even generating interest in rapid repeats is difficult.

Some people can get duration, in which the Fruition lasts longer than an instant to external time (as there is no internal time during a Fruition). Some people find duration elusive or impossible. The cause of this seems partially to do with depths of concentration, partially to do with inclination, and partially to do with personal wiring.

These can all vary by the stage of practice and what practices one is doing at that time and in what dose.

My own story after Stream Entry: in the first few days, I would get about one Fruition per day or so. They started getting faster after that, so maybe a few per day. They started happening off the cushion, when walking, when reclining, when eating, etc. for me pretty rapidly. I finally started to get some sense of how to incline to them, but initially I wasn't that good at doing this. Finally, after some months (now back in daily life), I learned how to just incline that way, and, a few seconds to a minute later, a Fruition would occur. This was clearly in the mature stage of Review.

One large caution: it is very easy for Stream Enterers to state shift, and strong state shifts can mimic Fruitions, occurring with eyes blinking, happen at the end of the out breath, involve changes in mental state afterwards that may be blissful or peaceful, etc.

Thus, some who think they are getting Fruitions by rapid inclination are actually just having hard state-shifts, as this is easy for many stream enterers, easier than rapid Fruitions by inclination. So, be careful when evaluating Fruitions, as all shifts and drop-outs and the like that might look like them actually aren't.

Getting good at sorting out which is which typically requires a lot of time, critical analysis, and practice. Many never get to be great phenomenologists, and that is ok. You can have a lot of wisdom and personal transformation without being a great analytical, technical practitioner.

Helpful?

Daniel

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/22/16 6:09 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
If you have somethign lined up like 1,2,3,4,5,6.. then you need a meaning to be told by the one who created it.
If you have something complete then the key is what unlocks the meaning in the writing.

Mahayana Sutras are complete and the meaning can be expressed with 4 line gatha and can be explained infinitely.
Theravada Suttas needs a teacher to told you its meaning.

The teacher is not ordinary it residues in heart And not in physical.

To be down to earth. Heart Sutras are viewed as Art(just include the meaning of missing syllable to know how to view), and the feelings you get out are your teachers.


---
Otherwords i have no idea, and can't have, if it is said only that fruition is fruition. Or 4 jhana is like that. It is not art. Art is something else.
Shall i use "fruition" and use its syllable meanings, or what exactly i need to do to get what you guys mean by fruition?

Edit: edited out ad hominiums.

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/22/16 6:20 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
sfg sgd:

what exactly i need to do to get what you guys mean by fruition?
The nanas we talk about come mostly from the Visuddhimagga in the Theravada tradition, not from the suttas. You could read the Visuddhimagga and you will find most of the information you need there.

These terms are also explained in tons of different books from the last 80 years or so. These are available for free download:

Mahasi Sayadaw - Practical Insight Meditation (1944), The Progress of Insight (1944).
http://www.saraniya.com/page/ebooks/ebooks-mahasi-sayadaw.html

Daniel Ingram - Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha (2007)
http://static.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/5055915f84aedaeee9181119/1347785055665/

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/22/16 7:46 AM as a reply to neko.
ok, i find a quote waht i don't agree, and basically is the cliff what can't be acrossed. I will put the quote when this webclient allows it(ususally allows when i edit,... i manually typed it in into notebook and then copy pasted from there it then worked)

http://www.saraniya.com/books/mahasi-sayadaw/pdf/mahasi_sayadaw-1964_on_the_nature_of_nibbana.pdf

at foreword ix
There are a number of current views according to different schools of thought concerning nibbana.
Some probably think that nibbana is celestial palace; an abode of tremendous dimensions, a big city or radiance of spectacular dazzling light.
Some hold the view that it is a state in which the individual soul is completely absorbed in the universal soul, etc.
These are all wishful thinking arising out of ignorance.

...
nothing new under the sun

Write a quote from Sutta, for an example Ratana Sutta, then write how it justifies my own practice and go for a ten page rant, rinse and repeat.

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/22/16 8:39 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
P, you got fruition yesterday? so did i. Its not like that type of frution we can take, the result is given. Everyone will recieve according to their level.

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
12/30/16 5:51 PM as a reply to Chris O..
Just wanted to say thank you to everyone that chimed in! It was nice to hear the various experiences from those more practiced. Extra gratitude toward Daniel for such an extensive reply—can't tell you how interesting this gamut of experience is to learn about. Very helpful indeed!

What I'm now experiencing, almost a month after Stream Entry, is similar to what neko described about having to sit formally. Since writing this original post, what I've noticed is that although I can't "call up" them, they arrive most sits—so long as I can get into a stable state of equanimity. Having two or three Fruitions in an hour-long sit consistently now. Often times, one will often come shortly after another, within a few seconds or minutes.

Like I said, I can't call them up, but it's very clear to me when they're about to arise. A few minutes beforehand I'll experiences these "glitches" where the visual field kind of shakes very quickly like the mind is trying to synchronize with the sensate world. It's kind of like the mind is finding (or trying to find) a stable pattern in the bright, illuminated static behind the eyelids. It'll happen once or a few times over a few minutes before Fruition. 

Also have noticed Fruitions come in different intensities and flavors: winks, like a curtain being quickly drawn closed and back open; blips, like a record skip, or the power flickering in a storm; dips, like falling out of the sensate field or into a hole; and black-outs, like a computer being unplugged, then booting back up cold. Some have really bright flashes afterward; other flashes are barely noticeable. Some cause intense buzzing piti over the body; some cause none. Some are mildly startling and get the heart pounding, followed by relief; others are no big deal at all.

All in all, the cool factor is definitely starting to wear off. They're becoming just an ordinary part of the meditative experience. Seems like they keep coming just about no matter how focused or mindful I feel.

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
1/1/17 6:48 AM as a reply to Chris O..
you need bees to have fruit. Think of bee into fundamental aspects what it is and get an idea what stage is involved in producing a fruit. Amongst other stages and its signs, effects etc.

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
1/1/17 7:15 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
from Surangama Sutra or related somehow:
As to àlaya
which is the unenlightened aspect of the self-nature, we
cannot lightly dismiss it as non-existent; and this is why the
Buddha avoids mentioning it for, as He says in His gàthà:
‘
Old habits flow like torrents in
âlaya’s subtle consciousness.
Since the real yet unreal can create confusion
I have refrained from revealing it to you.’

Dharma does not arise alone.
Relying on conditions it is born.
The Way is not practiced in vain.
Meeting conditions there is a response.

.

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
1/7/17 9:19 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
a) when you note then it is a sensation what is from the senses.

b) If you have internal eye open you can see the sensation as it is noted already.

Thats the source of schism between two schools. Both ways have their own way, and do it both way is 3rd or c) way.

RE: After First Path, on-demand Fruitions?
Answer
1/17/17 5:52 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
there is better distinction.

1. Sensation what is from the sense-conciousness, these are empty, like a mirage.
2. Sensation from body, like tingles, shivers, fear, love,.., are autonomous.

3. Sensation what is breath, you can control it. Using breath to create a sensation in body or in mind. Example: holding a breath to create heaviness feeling in body. In case it is not only the external breath what is used, it is discipline, repetitive actions, seclusion, isolation those type of scenarios. It is background, place or scenarion what controls the breath or is the breath.(ok i just got smarter myself, what the 3rd means respectevly to other two type of sensations.)