Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might have)

Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might have) housecrow 12/28/16 8:00 PM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Noah D 12/28/16 9:41 PM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h housecrow 12/29/16 9:12 PM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Noah D 12/29/16 10:01 PM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Stirling Campbell 12/31/16 2:06 PM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h housecrow 12/31/16 4:53 PM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Stirling Campbell 12/31/16 5:13 PM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Causes & Conditions 1/4/17 9:47 AM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Stirling Campbell 1/4/17 9:57 AM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Causes & Conditions 1/5/17 9:13 AM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h tom moylan 1/9/17 6:01 AM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Stirling Campbell 1/10/17 6:43 PM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Banned For waht? 1/12/17 9:40 AM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h housecrow 1/4/17 7:56 PM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Stirling Campbell 1/5/17 11:12 AM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Stirling Campbell 1/5/17 11:17 AM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h housecrow 1/7/17 11:56 AM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h neko 1/8/17 6:43 AM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Stirling Campbell 1/8/17 12:24 PM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Sven P. 1/5/17 1:04 AM
RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h Banned For waht? 1/9/17 7:31 AM
housecrow, modified 5 Years ago at 12/28/16 8:00 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/28/16 8:00 PM

Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might have)

Posts: 30 Join Date: 12/13/16 Recent Posts
Do you observe that you treat others better?
Are you able to better serve the needs and pains of the beings around you / in your community / more broadly?
In other words, has your attainment helped others, according to what you can perceive? And can you write a little bit please about how, or if not, why you think that might be?
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 12/28/16 9:41 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/28/16 9:41 PM

RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h

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For me it was Less inner noise = more space, which made me slightly less self centered 
housecrow, modified 5 Years ago at 12/29/16 9:12 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/29/16 9:12 PM

RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h

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Noah, thanks so much; that makes sense of course. At the risk of pushing, any chance that you could describe a sort of before vs after of how you handled or might handle a situation?
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 12/29/16 10:01 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/29/16 9:58 PM

RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h

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housecrow:
Noah, thanks so much; that makes sense of course. At the risk of pushing, any chance that you could describe a sort of before vs after of how you handled or might handle a situation?
It was still inconsistent, but I would wash the dishes more often than before.  This was something my stepdad would get annoyed about.  I didn't want to annoy him, but washing the dishes would make me incredibly agitated.  Post SE, I would still get relatively flooding agitation, but there was like one centimeter of distance between it and "me."

Most people get much more positive effect from SE than what I got.  I am not an optimal case study.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 5 Years ago at 12/31/16 2:06 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/31/16 2:05 PM

RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h

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housecrow:
Do you observe that you treat others better?
Are you able to better serve the needs and pains of the beings around you / in your community / more broadly?
In other words, has your attainment helped others, according to what you can perceive? And can you write a little bit please about how, or if not, why you think that might be?

Speaking only for myself, I can now see the emotions and situations of others with what I would call REAL compassion, vs. with empathy. By this, I mean I don't feel a sympathetic pain when seeing the suffering of others. I can also see my own situations without the baggage of my clinging, and have and experience emotions in a way that allows them to more or less just pass through me, instead of gaining a purchase and creating further problems. This makes it possible to act in a less colored and more practical way when helping others and has made me a better father, partner and co-worker. So, a big YES. I wouldn't say I am more charitable, or involved necessarily, but in a much better position to act without aversion or clinging where situations arise and conditions are ripe for me to act.
housecrow, modified 5 Years ago at 12/31/16 4:53 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/31/16 4:53 PM

RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h

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Stirling, thanks, I learned a lot from this response. The description of jettisoning clinging/aversion especially. Can you describe what real empathy is for you, other than not sympathetic pain, or do you have to have to be there to get it?
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Stirling Campbell, modified 5 Years ago at 12/31/16 5:13 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 12/31/16 5:13 PM

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housecrow:
Stirling, thanks, I learned a lot from this response. The description of jettisoning clinging/aversion especially. Can you describe what real empathy is for you, other than not sympathetic pain, or do you have to have to be there to get it?

Empathy IS sympathetic pain, in my opinion. Feeling the suffering of others personally. The classic proof that someone is feeling empathy is when they say, "I feel bad for him/her". My wife was laughing over a video on Reddit a few months ago: 3 teenage boys are in a gym. One kicks a soccer ball into the corner of the gym which ricochets and hits one of them square in the package. The other two, witnessing the event, double over in "pain". Hell... even my wife went, "ooooh....". Empathy.

What I'm saying is, I don't FEEL empathy any more. This is not to say that I don't recognize that there is suffering, I just don't have the empathetic response that I always used to. I see not having that "lense" of empathetic pain to see through as a benefit. Does that make more sense?
Causes & Conditions, modified 5 Years ago at 1/4/17 9:47 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/4/17 9:47 AM

RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h

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I was told by my teacher that it happened in my practice. I didn't notice that it happened. And I can't say that it changed my life in any concrete way.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 5 Years ago at 1/4/17 9:57 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/4/17 9:57 AM

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Do you mean Stream Entry? I feel confident saying that if a fruition leading to Stream Entry happened, you'd know it... and that your life would be forever different afterwards.
housecrow, modified 5 Years ago at 1/4/17 7:56 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/4/17 7:56 PM

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Thanks, Pawel, I know, but a reminder is of course quite welcome. emoticon I started the discussion to help answer questions I have about if stream entry is an urgent goal or if it should perhaps be something hoped for on the road to other more urgent things.

I am really a complete beginner when it comes to Buddhist terminology (so a lot of this forum is pretty baffling). Do you mind terribly explaining or linking to an explanation of what you mean by paths?
Sven P, modified 5 Years ago at 1/5/17 1:04 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/5/17 1:03 AM

RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h

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I hope i understand u right (Im from Germany and my english/us isnt so good)

In one direction "i" "see" that all beings have the same fundamental reality background
and same needs , its like i put a patch on my own finger if i help them. The empathy is much bigger.

The other side is that "i" "see" that help isnt important so often or it is not desired or the "time" isnt good for help so it is better to do "nothing" or rather give the "time" ,"time".
Causes & Conditions, modified 5 Years ago at 1/5/17 9:13 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/5/17 9:13 AM

RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h

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Yeah. That's what I'm saying, stream entry. But that's why I said that my teacher thought so. I remain unconvinced.

But I went to the dharma diagnostic clinic in the forum, and sought people's opinion and they seemed to agree with my teacher. 

Again, I really don't know, so maybe my opinion here is not applicable. 
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Stirling Campbell, modified 5 Years ago at 1/5/17 11:12 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/5/17 11:12 AM

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Paweł K:
path mapping is probably one of most disagreed upon thing in Buddhism with all sorts of criteria used by all sorts of people. Whole traditions and even schools/monasteries of one school and even members of one sangha can be in grave disagreement regarding these things...

all I can provide is my own interpretation based on my own experience in this regard or rather what I come to believe to be paths using easiest to grasp criteria (imho - to some other people it might make less or no sense) of control of body and by extension also mind.

etc.

...

I'm not sure I always get what you are saying in your posts, but I very much agree with at least the part of your model I believe I have experienced. It echoes how things have progressed from this perspective. I'd put myself MOSTLY in your "2nd" category, but I don't feel I have moved past "1st" entirely. I see a lot in common here with some of the Advaita/Neo-Advaita stuff I've read. 

It interests me that this progress seems to be different for different people. Something I would be interested in better understanding is what the factors are that influence how this progression expresses itself, and why those differences occur. I initially thought it was due to path and practices, but increasingly I wonder how much that has to do with anything at all.

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Stirling Campbell, modified 5 Years ago at 1/5/17 11:17 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/5/17 11:17 AM

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housecrow:
Thanks, Pawel, I know, but a reminder is of course quite welcome. emoticon I started the discussion to help answer questions I have about if stream entry is an urgent goal or if it should perhaps be something hoped for on the road to other more urgent things.

I am really a complete beginner when it comes to Buddhist terminology (so a lot of this forum is pretty baffling). Do you mind terribly explaining or linking to an explanation of what you mean by paths?

I'm not Pawel, but I'll just say that am against the whole "goal oriented" approach to practice. It is good to know that you are practicing to become enlightened, but better to not worry about that, or other day to day experiences while practicing. Bring up anything strange with a qualified teacher. Practice with diligence and regularity. Let go of expectation. Becoming too caught up in progress or goals can become attachement and will actually get in the way of your success.

Just my 2¢.


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housecrow, modified 5 Years ago at 1/7/17 11:56 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/7/17 11:56 AM

RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h

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Thanks for your 2 cents, Stirling. It is always good to be reminded of that, in particular because the stakes involved seem enormous. One doesn't wish to blunder through a venture of such gravity. Pawel's long write-up (for which I am grateful) makes the whole question of goals even more of a head trip, it really illuminated for me the absurdity of desiring freedom from desire (for example).
neko, modified 5 Years ago at 1/8/17 6:43 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/8/17 6:39 AM

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Stirling Campbell:

Just my 2¢.


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Subliminal messages from Stirling...
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Stirling Campbell, modified 5 Years ago at 1/8/17 12:24 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/8/17 12:24 PM

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Hahaha! I have NO idea why it does that!
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tom moylan, modified 5 Years ago at 1/9/17 6:01 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/9/17 6:01 AM

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howdy stirling,
i am not as confidant as you are.  this may prove your point precisely but i do not have fruitions as described.  it could very well be that this means i do not have first path.

neverthless the substantial changes that i have progressively encountered thoughout my long and at times intense journey through contemplationville have been remarkable.

i have changed in many ways which are similar to the doctrinal descriptions and those changes align much more precisely, for me, than does the classic four path model.

for example one of the measures of "stream entry" is the attenuation of the reliance on rites and rituals.  this reliance fell away years ago for me.  it was very stark and happened directly after an intense, phenomen rich retreat where i still failed to have noticable fruitions.  the factor of "doubt regarding the dhamma"  also fell away although not in precisely the sense usually portrayed in classic buddhism.  in my case the doubt as to the deathless essence of being fell away. 

many other attributes of "clinging" have greatly attenuated over the years and i still practice as it is a fine abiding but the agitated "drive" to practice is almost completely gone although i do plan to do retreats for deeper wisdom.

the "need to know" has attenuated to more of an anticipatory curiosity for me now and a willingness to be surprised.

as to how this has effected my reactions to others' needs and problems:  my gratitude for everything makes it easier to not be so agitated about much of the hubbub which most people i know are caught up in.  i am more generous generally and i have the impression that compassion and empathy are less contrived and more genuine.

tom
Banned For waht?, modified 5 Years ago at 1/9/17 7:31 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/9/17 7:30 AM

RE: Question for those who have obtained stream entry (or feel they might h

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if you don't udnerstand what fetters model is. Then by third path, female should not able to arose you. It is relativistic so maybe some detail less then you get arosed.

So in your own ground you are enlightened already and nothing to do. But on Earth and here on dark time you have excellent opportunity to rise your power level via cultivation easy because lots of ignorance.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 5 Years ago at 1/10/17 6:43 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/10/17 6:28 PM

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tom moylan:
howdy stirling,
i am not as confidant as you are.  this may prove your point precisely but i do not have fruitions as described.  it could very well be that this means i do not have first path.

neverthless the substantial changes that i have progressively encountered thoughout my long and at times intense journey through contemplationville have been remarkable.

i have changed in many ways which are similar to the doctrinal descriptions and those changes align much more precisely, for me, than does the classic four path model.

for example one of the measures of "stream entry" is the attenuation of the reliance on rites and rituals.  this reliance fell away years ago for me.  it was very stark and happened directly after an intense, phenomen rich retreat where i still failed to have noticable fruitions.  the factor of "doubt regarding the dhamma"  also fell away although not in precisely the sense usually portrayed in classic buddhism.  in my case the doubt as to the deathless essence of being fell away.

Hello Tom,

For me, the Stream Entry criteria of the first 3 fetters are possibly the only completely logical set. I see this as where most path models falter.

Speaking for myself, apprehending non-duality killed my solid "self" view (which has continued to steadily fade since), and eliminated doubt in whether this path was valid. When I got home, and immediately began pulling all of my Buddhism books off my self trying to make sense of what had happened, I realized after about 5 minutes that most of it, bar a few books, were just noise... unnecessary nonsense, as was much of the mandala practice, etc. that I was doing as part of my preliminary practice in Dzogchen. I saw it's purpose, but now knew that nothing like that would ever need to be part of my path again... the death of clinging to rites and rituals.
Banned For waht?, modified 5 Years ago at 1/12/17 9:40 AM
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from wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)

Throughout the Pali canon, the word "fetter" is used to describe an intrapsychic phenomenon that ties one to suffering.


Meditation
with the fetters

"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the eye and material forms and the fetter that arises dependent on both (eye and forms); he understands how the arising of the non-arisen fetter comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen fetter comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned fetter comes to be. [And thus] he understands the ear and sounds .... the organ of smell and odors .... the organ of taste and flavors .... the organ of touch and tactual objects .... consciousness and mental objects ...."

Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10)[31]

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