Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

Monsoon Frog, modified 5 Years ago at 2/22/17 8:13 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/22/17 8:12 PM

Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

Posts: 70 Join Date: 3/16/14 Recent Posts
On page 92 of Saints and Psychopaths, Bill Hamilton writes:

“It is an interesting phenomenon that the higher the level of enlightenment, the more rapidly people progress from· deep insight to enlightenment. The key to the higher levels of enlightenment is attaining deep insight to the higher path. After the first level has been attained, most of the time spent doing intensive practice is preparation for being able to attain deep insight again. One study of how long it took to finish the second path after deep insight ranges between two weeks and ten hours. One of my teachers went from the third level of enlightenment to attainment of the fourth in one sitting. The experience of each path is essentially the same, except that the final phase of equanimity gets much deeper in each path. The reason that the higher paths go so rapidly seems to be that after the first experience, meditators intuitively know not to manipulate their experiences.”

It appears that what Hamilton is calling ‘deep insight,’ Daniel is labeling the ‘A&P event,’ correct?

My recollection of MCTB mapping is that after path attainment, a yogi's subsequent meditation efforts will begin at no less than the forth nana (and which may perhaps be used as one diagnostic tool for assessing path attainment). 
Are these models consistent with one another? 

If what both Hamilton and Daniel states is accurate, then after path attainment and upon beginning a new path cycle of meditation,  the overwhelmingly vast majority of time the yogi spends in meditation will necessarily be experienced in, and limited to, the fourth nana … to be more precise it will be in the 'pre-A&P Event' stage (aka. Deep Insight) of the fourth nana: stated another way and by referencing Daniel’s Nanas and Jhanas Table, the vast majority of meditation time for a post-path yogi will be spent in the three sub nanas of 4.1 (immature), 4.2 (rapturous), and 4.3 (mature). This must be so if both Hamilton’s and Daniel’s descriptions are to align up with each other.

Is this an accurate reading of these maps?
Is there any consensus in the pragmatic dharma community regarding the accuracy of this analysis?


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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 2/22/17 9:39 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/22/17 9:39 PM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

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The MCTB part there is talking about reviewing the deep insight of the path that was recently attained.

The SAP part is talking about attaining to the next layer of deep insight, after review of the previous path is over.
J C, modified 5 Years ago at 2/22/17 10:27 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/22/17 10:27 PM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

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I'm not sure what he means by "deep insight" but it clearly is not the A&P. I don't know that he's talking about a specific stage at all.

The A&P doesn't last for long so you definitely don't spend most of each cycle there.

Here's a good graph of stages over time: http://www.theravadin.org/2008/03/20/vipassana-knowledge-and-the-path-to-nibbana/
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 2/22/17 10:49 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/22/17 10:49 PM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

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He is talking about the a&p.
Monsoon Frog, modified 5 Years ago at 2/23/17 12:24 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/23/17 12:16 AM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

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Noah D:
The MCTB part there is talking about reviewing the deep insight of the path that was recently attained.

The SAP part is talking about attaining to the next layer of deep insight, after review of the previous path is over.


Regrading MCTB: when it's stated that a post-path yogi will begin her sits at the 4th nana, is this only during the review phase?
Does this 4th nana lower threshold also hold true once review is completed and the next insight cycle kicks in ... or does the yogi begin anew at the first nana, Mind and Body?
Monsoon Frog, modified 5 Years ago at 2/23/17 12:22 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/23/17 12:20 AM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

Posts: 70 Join Date: 3/16/14 Recent Posts
J C:
I'm not sure what he means by "deep insight" but it clearly is not the A&P. I don't know that he's talking about a specific stage at all.

The A&P doesn't last for long so you definitely don't spend most of each cycle there.

I'm pretty sure Hamilton is refering to the A&P:

From Saints and Psychopaths, p.71:
“The term deep insight is an abbreviation of Deep Insightinto Arising and Passing of Phenomenon described in theCommentaries. Wlhen concentration and the ability toobserve change are developed to the point that thoughtprocesses can be observed to arise and pass in the mind,the nature of objects of consciousness appears to change.After deep insight, insight into faster and subtlercomponents of the thought process is realized, and themeditator acquires an intuitive wisdom about the nature ofconsciousness and reality.”


Regarding the 'doesn't last for long' comment, Daniel has written this in regards to the A&P:

"Duration
The A&P duration as it unfolds for some may take months and for some may be less than a second, and this can vary widely as one re-crosses it."

(http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1509672)
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 5 Years ago at 2/23/17 12:23 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/23/17 12:23 AM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

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I knew Bill. When he said deep insight, he meant the a&p.
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Jake , modified 5 Years ago at 2/23/17 9:58 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/23/17 9:57 AM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

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@monsoon frog:

 yes, a new cycle begins at mind and body of the new path. Starting at 4th nana pertains to review of the path previously attained  as Noah said. 
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Pablo CEG, modified 5 Years ago at 2/24/17 7:58 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/24/17 7:58 AM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

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Monsoon Frog:
On page 92 of Saints and Psychopaths, Bill Hamilton writes:

“It is an interesting phenomenon that the higher the level of enlightenment, the more rapidly people progress from· deep insight to enlightenment. The key to the higher levels of enlightenment is attaining deep insight to the higher path. After the first level has been attained, most of the time spent doing intensive practice is preparation for being able to attain deep insight again. One study of how long it took to finish the second path after deep insight ranges between two weeks and ten hours. One of my teachers went from the third level of enlightenment to attainment of the fourth in one sitting. The experience of each path is essentially the same, except that the final phase of equanimity gets much deeper in each path. The reason that the higher paths go so rapidly seems to be that after the first experience, meditators intuitively know not to manipulate their experiences.”



For what is worth, Culadasa states that, provided you have achieved a high level skill of concentration first, you can attain 1st and 2nd  Path in a single sit. 
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 2/24/17 8:05 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/24/17 8:05 AM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

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Does anyone know who it was that went from the 3rd level of Enlightenment to the 4th in a single sitting? (Per Bill Hamilton quote)

I suppose it may have been U Pandita?
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 5 Years ago at 2/25/17 12:33 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/25/17 12:33 AM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

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Given the stories that Bill told, likely U Pandita, yes.
Jason Massie, modified 5 Years ago at 2/25/17 4:16 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/25/17 4:16 PM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

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Noah D:
The MCTB part there is talking about reviewing the deep insight of the path that was recently attained.

The SAP part is talking about attaining to the next layer of deep insight, after review of the previous path is over.

So a while into the next path, fruitions of the previous path stop?
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 2/25/17 5:54 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/25/17 5:54 PM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

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Perhaps others can chime in, but I would say the norm is that one does not have access to the 1st path fruition after review and before high eq of the next path.  And then there are standard deviations from the norm, where people can dip into the previous experience of nirvana at any time.  That's my theoretical understanding.
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 5 Years ago at 2/26/17 1:23 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/26/17 1:23 AM

RE: Mapping Post Path: Do Hamilton and MCTB Agree?

Posts: 3231 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Between paths is murky territory for most.

It is definitely true that most will find it harder to get fruitions of the current path while above the next A&P.

There are definitely also exceptions, where it can be very confusing, and some will notice that, if they incline to the fruitions of the current path, they can attain them, but the afterglow tends to be diminished and the sense of satisfaction from them lessens. Sorting these out from strong state shifts of other varieties can sometimes be difficult.

Also, backsliding can occur, sometimes aided by resolutions to return to previous territory, and, when backslid to the previous Review, some will find fruitions easy again, assuming they were easy before.

Some have a hard time getting repeat fruitions even in Review the first time, and some will find they can't get them at all.

Helpful?

Daniel

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