unknowingly 1st path?

Sam Bartko, modified 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 10:38 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 10:38 AM

unknowingly 1st path?

Posts: 9 Join Date: 3/12/17 Recent Posts
Hi Everyone, 

I'll try to be as brief as possible. 

I started meditating back in October and since then I've made decent progress in TMI, probably nowadays centering around stage 7 in TMI. I've had a few cessation experiences which I've discussed with my teacher which I didn't think were really meaningfull until recently after a few months have passed I've noticed some fundamental differences in my relation to the world. Whether these are just a result of being obsessed with meditation and Dharma or actually paradigm shifts I'm not sure, but the change from how I used to be is big enough that it's worth asking. I will probaly discuss this with my teacher as these changes are beoming more apparent. 

The first big event (not sure if it was really a cessation) there was a definite strobing in an out of what seemed to be all sensate experience during a period of non-conceptual observance of the breath. Like all perception was vibrating in and out. I was then rocketed through space into a luminous orb and as I passed though the barrier-like brightness there was a bliss wave more intense than any Jhanas I've accessed so far. This was a couple months back and I just put it down as a peak experience.

Then there was one sit where I had multiple blips, one after another, which I can only describe as gaps in all perception. It was subtle and only noticed after the fact that definetely there was a period (not sure how long but likely brief) where there was just a gap. Totallly without warning or anything, just a simple gap. If want to say the mind tried to put some sort of clicking noise on the experience to fill it in, but I'm not sure I actually heard a click. Again I mentioned this to my teacher and we wrote it off because it seemed pretty insignificant. 

The most recent event was a very bright flash during choiceless awareness during a period of what seemed to be very A&P like phenomena occurring, there was a fast cascade of distinct sensations, I was begginning to see clearly the begginning and ending of each sensation and experiencing how when one sensation was percieved, nothing else was percieved in that exact moment but the one sensation. During this period the flask occured and there was an abundance of electrical energy sensations released and also a click-like label created by the mind perhaps without an actual click (this was during the flash). I only mention the flash event because I've heard of something called a luminous cessation here and there and wasn't sure if this description lines up. 

The most recent one was less flashy but still cool, so I came out of 1st Jhana (only recently been accessible for me) and started doing some choiceless awareness when my perception shifted and the sense of phenomena being "me" or part of "me" was very clearly not there temporarily. It was as if I was observing phenomena as ripples in my consciousness from the viewpoint of an outside observer. There was no identification and a very obvious separation. This was really cool and calm, the observer was totally impartial and profoundly still despite the pitti and prana flowing, and I tried to dwell there further and investigate this state but I was forced to end my session. 

My inclination is to write these off as merely experiences and phenomena, but after reading about what happens when someone stream enters, it's my understanding that a cessation event is usually involved. 

Anyway, in daily life I have noticed almost a complete elimination of future/career planning, which is totally against my nature as I've always been a worry wort and planner. My concern with what other people think of me is also notably reduced. There's been an increase in suffering involved with specifically feeling like everything in ordinary conventional reality is just a game based on delusion, and therefore motivation for worldly pursuits is very hard to come by and only comes out of neccesity or fear of failure. I think (know) the dharma is real, and I was raised Christian so theres been an increase in suffering around this issue that wasn't there before. In esscese, I feel as though I'm partly going crazy, and partly giving up on caring what everyone thinks. Normal job stressors that used to stress me out before are different in that I just don't care enough anymore to identify with it.

Anyway, I'm not sure what's going on but it's definetely something and I thought I would ask everyone here in case I'm totally off base. Please feel free to tell me it's not stream entry, my gut says its probaly not, but definetely something.   
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Bruno Loff, modified 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 11:53 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 11:52 AM

RE: unknowingly 1st path?

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Hmm... The outcome of cessation feels to me a bit like the mind was reset. Like maybe it was noisy and so on, then *blip* and now it's silent. The massive wave of bliss that happened to me the first few times never did happen again, nowadays when there is bliss it is mild. (But truth be said I am not very prone to having blissful experiences at all, of any kind, for any reason)

Feeling like you don't care about what others think, feeling like you are partly going crazy, bright flashes, feeling that everything is meaningful and dramatic, feeling that you are seeing through other people's bullshit, feeling like you are capable of something greater than the petty lives of blind confusion that other people go through, all of these were at some point typical of my own A&P stages, and mild forms of them persist to this day. I can faintly see all these things in your descriptions, so A&P is a good guess.

It is normal that the first A&P experienced after stream-entry will be the most intense of all. This was certainly the case for me: I remember one day I was so high that my pupils were dilated like I had taken LSD (but I hadn't). Kenneth Folk once told me 1st path is the A&P of paths, and that totally fits my experience. So maybe that's what's going on for you. Or maybe it's just pre-path A&P.

If you know very well what it's like to go through A&P, Dark Night, equanimity and deep equanimity, and this *still* feels like new teritorry, then it *could* be that indeed you got SE and this is now 1st path A&P.

One test is whether or not you find these cessations happening throughout the day.
Sam Bartko, modified 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 3:14 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 3:14 PM

RE: unknowingly 1st path?

Posts: 9 Join Date: 3/12/17 Recent Posts
Bruno Loff:


It is normal that the first A&P experienced after stream-entry will be the most intense of all. This was certainly the case for me: I remember one day I was so high that my pupils were dilated like I had taken LSD (but I hadn't). Kenneth Folk once told me 1st path is the A&P of paths, and that totally fits my experience. So maybe that's what's going on for you. Or maybe it's just pre-path A&P.

If you know very well what it's like to go through A&P, Dark Night, equanimity and deep equanimity, and this *still* feels like new teritorry, then it *could* be that indeed you got SE and this is now 1st path A&P.

One test is whether or not you find these cessations happening throughout the day.

Thanks for taking the time to comment. I have actually had one daytime 'cessation-like" blip recently, actually right before meditating. But it was an isolated event that hasn't showed up again. I remember that one because I hit a pretty nice 1st Jhana after that with a particularly vibratory quality to it. I'm not sure if this was an actual cessation or not but I definetely noticed it when it happened (I was crossing through a physical door). Before/after but no "passing through" perceived. It was weird and I figured it was just me spacing out for a second.  

I've never really paid much attention to the maps before recently but if I had to guess I've crossed A&P twice before, and have most definitely been through the Dark Night more than once. It's not like I'm practicing at a retreat level of intensity (I get 2, maybe 3 hours a day), so these things may be subtle but what definitely stands out for me are the A&P and DN descriptions and how those match up with my experience. 

Thanks for your comments again- I guess there's nothing to do but keep practicing. I wonder if it's possible to set an intention to have a cessation and see if it happens. I've heard of that sort of thing but I'm not up on the theory enough to know what I'm doing. 
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Bruno Loff, modified 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 4:47 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 4:47 PM

RE: unknowingly 1st path?

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
It is definitely possible to resolve for a cessation and see if it happens. If you can get the experience you are referring to at will, you can then look at it carefully and come to a more precise description of what happens before and after. If you can't make it happen at will, you may nonetheless still have stream-entry. I can't have fruitions at will seven years to the day of my stream-entry. It took me many years for me to even figure out how to make them likely to happen within, say, the next hour or two. From what I've seen, people are usually 2nd path before they have anything close to that kind of control.

If it happens of its own accord throughout the day, then what does it feel like after it happens?
Jinxed P, modified 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 7:09 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 7:08 PM

RE: unknowingly 1st path?

Posts: 347 Join Date: 8/29/11 Recent Posts
Congratulations on making to stage seven so quickly after just starting meditating in October! Can I ask how often/length of time do you practice?

The disillusion with conventional reality is a phase most go through at some point. I recommend lots of metta practice to help you get through it.
Sam Bartko, modified 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 8:37 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 8:37 PM

RE: unknowingly 1st path?

Posts: 9 Join Date: 3/12/17 Recent Posts
Bruno Loff:
It is definitely possible to resolve for a cessation and see if it happens. If you can get the experience you are referring to at will, you can then look at it carefully and come to a more precise description of what happens before and after. If you can't make it happen at will, you may nonetheless still have stream-entry. I can't have fruitions at will seven years to the day of my stream-entry. It took me many years for me to even figure out how to make them likely to happen within, say, the next hour or two. From what I've seen, people are usually 2nd path before they have anything close to that kind of control.

If it happens of its own accord throughout the day, then what does it feel like after it happens?
It's only happened that once off cusion so far, but it was mostly just a "wtf was that" type of thing with a sort of giddy feeling. Felt more like the plain weirdness of it was funny more than it just arising from nowhere.  
Sam Bartko, modified 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 8:42 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/31/17 8:42 PM

RE: unknowingly 1st path?

Posts: 9 Join Date: 3/12/17 Recent Posts
Jinxed P:
Congratulations on making to stage seven so quickly after just starting meditating in October! Can I ask how often/length of time do you practice?

The disillusion with conventional reality is a phase most go through at some point. I recommend lots of metta practice to help you get through it.

I usually sit once for an hour in the early morning and once for an hour at night. I try to also do a 40 min metta session when I can squeeze it in (almost every day).