Earlier this evening I was reading some Jack Kornfield and was inspired to strongly resolve to attain to equanimity after a prolonged dark night (at least 1 year, possibly longer)

The previous week I was meditating a lot (2+ hours a day), but stopped after feeling an excessive amount of energy building up in my head and face, and vibrations in the 1-4 hz range that were getting oppressive and dizzying. I actually had the feeling that something was going to blow, but not necessarily in a good way. Actually I was expecting an A&P, and didn't want to deal with it right now.

After my reading, I reflected on the difficulties of the last year and on the importance of embracing uncertainty and letting go. Laid down in bed for a while in a state of equanimity that I have not felt in quite some time, no longer pushing away the annoying vibrations or anything else. At some point I was exhaling and felt a discontinuity, like a little blip or pop, where the exhalation was maybe .3 to .5 seconds ahead of where it should have been, and sort of a solidification or elaboration of this state of equanimity. My first thought was "was that it?" and then my second though was "not sure, but better resolve to attain enlightenment for the benefit of myself and all beings just in case"

Right now I feel unusually calm and clear headed, without the usual existential (and other) anxiety.

I'm going to reread the chapter in MCTB right now but wanted to note this down while the experience was still fresh.

After writing this, I remembered another relevant detail, which is that I may have had an A&P-like event the previous night. I had a very bizarre dream involving body distortion and all sorts of magical feelings, and when I woke up immediately though of Daniel's dream with the witches.

wow wild stuff! nice to read. i dont know

I got stream entry about aug last year. and i remember it wasnt during meditation.. itwas when i least expected it.. i think thats whats written down in the book too.. i was walking,one of those mindless automatic states, and then 3 mind moments.. one two three.. and then i didnt know what that was... when i sat down.. a few minutes passed and i felt like everything looked 'signless' meaningless.. i was staring at my desk with letters and papers, and the words became meaningless.. everything looked dead. at that point i didnt know which was stream entry. but its said everyone may experience different things i think.. also, the day before that was sunday. I tried meditating the whole day til night.. but half of that I was falling asleep.. i was even very disappointed at myself for being so sleepy. then the next day, it hit me.

keep up the practice! continuous practice ! its just around the corner!

Interesting I had a "blip" event a few months before stream entry. The vibrations where horribly annoying and suddenly there was a blip and it all smoothed out. (I also thought "was that it?" )

The stream entry blip however was noticeably different, in that two seconds later there was a surge of such tremendous relief, that it really felt that something had changed (and indeed it still does). Then there was an incredible silence.

hey i think i remember that too!

does this usually go with the feeling of uniting with the surroundings? im not sure but i think i got that blip 5 days before. Got equanimity once, fell back to the dark night. got equanimity a second time, then i think i got that blip, then fell back to the dark night, then got equanimity the 3rd time, then that was it..

So KB it seems you're an inch away from stream entry

Thanks for the encouragement everyone.

I'm about to sit, and will resolve to attain a fruition to see if this is repeatable.

Things are still feeling somehow different. Basically more free is how I would describe it.

Ok, I don't seem to have any extra abilities in meditation so I guess that wasn't "it". I wish we understood all these various unknowing experiences better. Someone should stuff Daniel into an fmri machine.

Dark night yogi, do you know why you fell back from equinimity multiple times? Were you not practicing enough or is it something else. Would like to avoid similar fate.

during that time, i went from one stage to another quite quickly compared to other people i think.. I'm not sure but i think (im just guessing) the closer you are to stream entry, the faster you move from stage to stage.. and the more hours you practice a day, the faster you move.

At that time I was working part time and practicing quite a bit each day, so perhaps thats why I moved from stage to stage more quickly. I think the reason I kept falling is, aside from equanimity having everything pleasurable, making it easier
to get hooked on craving the sensations, my Chi was also very strong. It was like a rollercoaster, so i think I burned out a lot. I was pretty determined and hyped-up, paranoid of falling back, excited at the whole thing..so i was applying a lot of concentration to my meditation. so my days were really Up and down.I fell back down to 3 characteristics once or twice as well. i.e.

Monday: Strong! equanimity!
tuesday: burned out.. still equanimity.. but slowly falling down to the dark night
wednesday: regaining strength.. still in dark night
thursday: Strong! equanimity!

But i didnt fall back in the sense where it was long-term.. and climbing back up never took more than a day or two
.I think I got a bit too addicted to meditation and the reason I was burning out was because I had that "I'm close! Maybe if i do it for a couple of more hours then I'm going to get it. Better meditate than sleep right now. Go all the way!"

Thanks DNY, glad to hear it was not a extended regression. That would be unfortunate!

Right now lots of life stuff going on, hard to focus on practice, but would be worse being back in the dark night..

This sounds pretty similar to where I was at. I was practicing at least an hour a day (there were some weekdays when I got 4 hours in and on weekends I'd usually do between 2-4 hours each day). I'm still unsure whether or not I actually did get stream entry. I had an experience (in late April) and everything about it lines up to what I've read about stream entry from events leading up to it, formations, the blip of cessation, the afterglow, return to normalcy, the way I related to the world etc afterwards... except I was forcing and forcing and putting a ton of pressure on myself to get a repeat fruition, to prove that it actually was stream entry... .and nothing. I cycled constantly in the week following. Things to investigate were also becoming increasingly uncertain (like noting the stuff I had noted before seemed like a step backwards, if that makes sense.. kind of like, been there, done that, it's already known, what should I pay attention to now?) After a couple weeks I was getting sick of the constant cycling/up & down and not knowing where I was at, so I got really discouraged and stopped practicing. Lots of wishing I had never heard of stream-entry or the maps or the stages, so I could practice without being influenced by what I thought was supposed to be happening. I feel a strong pull lately to get back into things and have been reading this board a lot more. I did a bit of samatha breath exercises the other day, which was fun.. not sure how good my concentration is.. in about a 30 minute session I got to what seemed like 2nd, possibly very beginning of 3rd samatha jhana based on what I've read. (I haven't done much straight up concentration before. I basically started from scratch with insight). I still haven't gotten back into daily noting sessions yet.

Steph

Was the cycling that happened the following week just going from dark night to equanimity and back down, and not completing the cycles? What you describe as constant cycling could also be the 'review phase' after stream entry. My review phase lasted exactly a week after stream entry, and had the exact feeling of "been there done that".

Its possible u did get it. Fruitons are obvious, but it may also be that you don't know what exactly to spot. When I used to get fruitons, alot of times I didn't notice them and didn't know that "that was it".
If you did feel the sense of relief, the after flow, return to normalcy, i'd think it was it.. Stream entry was really euphoric for me, and it felt like it unleashed tidal waves of Chi to flow as an after effect. The reason why the week after had the "been there done that" feel is also because there was so much Chi. I tried but never really learned how to resolve to attain repeat fruitons though.. or I didn't understand what for. it may be some people are more natural and talented in this..


During that time for me, (after stream entry), I remember the cycles were not at all much different from before. What was really confusing for me though was starting 2nd path.

for me after that time I had alot of time on my hands to practice, and I read from Dan's book that after 1st path, its possible to attain 2nd path very quickly, so I kept practicing alot, and got 2nd path 24 days after the 1st.
If you did get stream entry, (or even if you didn't, you sure were close), then you probably have little more to go before 2nd path.
and 2nd path isn't far from 3rd path. and 3rd path is really good!! Makes it all worth it.

I compared Daniel I's timeline to mine and it seems to line up, in terms of how fast we progress. He got third path about a year after 2nd path, and he got 2nd path close after 1st path.

From what I have heard/been told, repeat fruitions do not happen to everybody (or at least, are not perceived by everybody). The ones that I have had were so quick that for about a year I doubted that I ever experienced any.

There are some other things that weren't mentioned by either you or the DN yogi that may make it easier to make up your mind.

There should be an increase in concentration, you mentioned making it to 2nd/3rd jhana in 30 minutes without much prior practice, that's kind of how it was for me. Also, right after stream entry I remember spontaneously entering very mild to fairly heavy states of absorption throughout my every day life. Since I did not practice it, after a while it once again became quite hard to enter hard concentration states, even if the entrance was much easier to hit than before.

Also, your understanding of the three characteristics and the Dharma in general should somehow be firmer and more solid (and noticeable during practice, ie. you know that all sensations are impermanent, or that they are not being experienced by a self, or that they do not have the ability to satisfy). I generally noticed that if I was to re-read MCTB afterwards there was a number of things that I got that I most definitely did not get before.

Lastly, there should be something missing that was there before, even if it is quite hard to put your finger on what that something precisely is. You may notice that there are some things that no longer bother you, some obsessions that no longer occur, or simply that your mind does not seem to be quite as chaotic as before, even if your ability to notice the chaos has been heavily augmented. This may translate as a permanent decrease in suffering, even if the decrease is not very big or tangible.

Any of that helpful? /and congratulations either way/

KB - I kind of feel like I hijacked your thread here. Apologies for that... feel free to take it back whenever. I'm hoping posting of others' experiences will be helpful to someone, though, so I made it detailed on purpose.

Here's a rundown of the more prominent parts of the actual what may have been stream-entry experience that I still remember. While I was sitting, there was a carnival going on at the church that's just across from my apartment building. Instead of being distracted by it, it was included in my entire field of experience, without effort really. Instead of the carnival being located somewhere out there its sounds (music, people happily screaming on rides, etc) were right there with me, not even in front of me, but actually directly part of me, since the sounds and other residual sensations were being heard/processed/experienced seamlessly. A bit deeper in, feeling pretty floaty and curious, I had a sensation of being some sort of force field of light, like a glowing mass of whitish light.. or maybe this other light pattern came first and I'm reversing.. hard to remember now.. but there were also separate horizontal planes of red light moving from the bottom of my body up to the top, like an elevator smoothly & briefly stopping on multiple floors. Onwards still, thoughts were popping into my head like.. "suffering is the anticipation of the next moment" so I tried to find the moments between moments (which are obviously still moments), which led to "suffering is the assumption that there will even be a next moment".

I was feeling really dreamy at this point... the totality would probably resemble something like the gravity defying feel and stark visual qualities of black outer space. At this point I wasn't even noting anymore.. perhaps too abstract? Things were happening slowly and thoughts were unintelligible happenings.. just sensations that were coming and going.. I can't explain how exactly, but without intervention of comprehension it was just known that it was all an integrated process going on. In my visual field, in the area of space that would be in front of me if existing in reality, I then saw separate neutral colored cubes lined up in an L formation floating in space. I don't know how, but it was somehow understood that these blocks represented my body. The cubes that were the appendage part of the L would move up and down, side to side as an arm or other body part would.. however, my actual body wasn't moving. The blocks then started rotating, in the visual field in front of me. As descriptively as I'm trying to write about the cube stuff now, then it was actually a fairly brief visualization and even somewhat faint/vague in appearance.

Following this visualization, there was a lapse of experience.. cessation? The only reason I'm aware of this lapse is because of being aware of a moment before and a moment after.. there was no awareness of anything between the before and after.. if that makes sense. The immediate after was a huge calm and giant smile on my face and thinking that was cessation. I felt a ton of pressure in my neck and back of my head, and front of my head/between my eyes (all stuff I've felt before occasionally). Slowly some doubt and a little fear started creeping in. And as slowly as doubt came, it crept away and brought in deep calm and gratitude. I started thinking about loved ones a bit and my heart was welling up. This was very pleasant and lasted a while, and then subsided to back to "normal".

The next day there were strong bliss waves and general feeling of being on cloud 9. There was also, at times, a creepy sensation of something following directly behind me. I'd even turn to look behind me, and of course nothing was there. I was also trying to get a repeat fruition, without any luck, at times being annoyed at this and other times not caring at all. My first prominent A&P cycle afterwards was more intense than before. Super-charged energy, reveling in joy & pleasure, and vivid, wildly colorful visualizations and intricate patterns. By the logic that A&P was so intense, Dark Night should have been too, right? Not really. I was pretty much able to laugh it off. Equanimity wasn't so intense either (not that it ever was) and the calmness, spaciousness etc was pretty similar to before. Other stuff about the following weeks in responses to questions below.



Here's the quote from MCTB (in the Was That Emptiness? chapter) that relates: "If you don’t have the necessary level of clarity and mastery to repeat the experience of interest again and again, either do enough clear and diligent practice to attain the required mastery or don’t ask the question." I took this to mean that getting repeat fruitions at will was one of the most non-negotiable markers of stream-entry (thus the pressure/stress I felt to make it happen in the following weeks). Maybe I have been experiencing fruitions without realizing it, in the same way you did. Maybe I haven't.



Yes, about the 3 characteristics (as I mentioned in the "been there, done that" part of my previous post. It's just known, without effort). There's also a little shift of what's missing. Like you say, certain shit just doesn't phase me like it used to, or doesn't even enter in the first place. Yes, there's also general feeling of my head space being more open and less crowded. Getting back to my baseline of calm is easier when annoyances occur. To add to that, there's a subtly better knowing of the seamlessness of what's actually happening.. i.e. more intuitive that the world/"my" place in it/experiences are way less separate than I used to think. That being said, I also know the monkey mind is still at work, and there's a ways to go. And to that end... now what?

Thanks for the input so far,
Steph

Sounds pretty clear to me, then again, I am no authority on other peoples' attainments :-) (or my own for that matter)



If you have had mini blip-like experiences that you thought may have been repeat fruitions but were not sure, then they probably were repeat fruitions. Also, during your repeat cycles, did you cycle from A&P - equanimity or did it start from mind&body? What happened after equanimity?

Anyway, there are people who simply seem to experience no repeat fruitions so its no big deal. (the other criteria seem more final to me, perhaps I am wrong in this). If, after all this time, you still suspect that you have done it then you probably have. Time helps makes sense of these things.

Daniel's book is written from a perspective of an insight powerhouse, a lot of the stuff there is only apparent with a lot of concentration and immense skills in insight, I wouldnt worry too much about being able to live up to those very high standards, then again, dont let me stop you.

Overall, it sounds like you got a hell of a lot of good things from it all, which is great, isnt it? As for continuing your practice, the next Dark Night may help you in this direction (if you dont decide to get more of that good stuff on your own anyway).

All the best!

I think its great that others are adding their experiences! Thats very helpful.

Seems that lots of people talk about the bliss wave and gratitude, and deeper understanding of the 3C's. The cycling and concentration skills seem more variable.

I definitely felt a bliss wave but it wasn't something to write home about.

The main feeling for the next day or two was just "freedom", not feeling pushed around by desire and aversion, general calm and emptiness of mind, clearer perception of the world. Some of that "cloud 9" feeling for sure.

At that point real life interveaned with somewhat of a crises and broke that state, though I am confident that I have some new understanding or a "taste" of the 1st path even if that wasnt it.

I suspect that I might be a wisdom follower and/or a faith follower, and that might influence one's reaction to stream entry as well. I wonder what any teachers know about that..

Hey KB,

If you got SE, well done!

My experience and as far as I know the experience of several other post-pathers is that one really only gains more control over calling up fruitions after 2nd path. It becomes much easier to experience them when you want. However, I would not rule out having that skill at SE. I just would not rely too much on the idea that you "should" have that skill after SE. At 2nd path it should become a piece of cake. For me that was the case. I can call up a frution at will. I also have experience at the end of a cycle after a fruition where I will go through what Kenneth Folk calls review phase A, if remember correctly. In that review phase I sometimes get multiple uncontrollable fruitions one after the other for maybe 30 minutes max, and then I'll drop inot another cycle. I think these skills and experiences vary widely though. But you should have some imporved concetration, and like Pavel said, there is a feling that somtheing has changed in the brain. Something has dropped away....some suffering that is.

Once again, Congrats if it was SE!!!!

@ Steph
sounds like stream entry to me! definitely cessation as well! way to go!!
re: being sick of the maps, I sometimes get sick of the maps, the cycles, but I don't really give importance to where I am unless I need to. These times are most usually in A & P, its the most obvious and the most dangerous, the time that tells me to watch out and relax if not i'll burn myself out or possibly hit a dark night. Equanimity stages are also sometimes very mellow/subtle/hard to tell/non-existent. The beginning of a new path after equanimity also hard to tell sometimes.

re: stream entry visuals, pretty cool stuff! The red is something interesting, coz I usually see blue at the third eye chakra area, but havnt really seen other colors.


@ KB
re: wisdom and faith follower, I was thinking about that earlier too.. Its like, Nikolai and others have developed awesome control of their mind, the ability to have fruitons, get nirodha samapati, and other stuff like that..
And then some people develop great wisdom and are able to understand the 3 C's and feel like they've uncracked the mystery of the universe. Some can feel like they have understood the complexities of tibetan buddhism just like that.. amazing bliss waves, great gratitude, great compassion, great visuals, being in the moment feelings of peace.


While googling on the wisdom faith follower, I came across this article

"this person is a Faith-follower, that person a Dharma-follower. This person is a dweller in Emptiness, that person a dweller in the Signless, that person a dweller in the Wishless. The five cardinal virtues will arise in this person by means of the emptiness-door to deliverance, in that person by means of the signless door to deliverance, in that person by means of the wishless door to deliverance. By means of the five cardinal virtues this one gazes upon the unimpeded concentration. By means of the unimpeded concentration he will produce the vision and cognition of emancipation. By means of the vision and cognition of emancipation he will forsake three fetters, i.e., the view of individuality, the contagion of mere rule and ritual, and doubt" http://www.bhaisajyaguru.com/buddhist-ayurveda-encylopedia/five_eyes_pancha-chaksus_panca-cakkhuni_wu-yan_chaksu.htm

Here's some more stuff that happened right before or right after or during the time I got stream entry, some of it I only remembered now..
I was experiencing what feels like being in the middle of intersecting dimensions. But it was only for mind moments at a time, so its hard to tell what exactly it was. One mind moment felt like i was in the middle of a life-size mandala, one was me looking at a picture of people, and seeing/understanding their interconnection and their family tree. Like at that mind moment, my mind was visualizing or remembering branches and history in lightning fast speed. Another mind moment, I remembered or recalled or saw what seemed like the real actual person (a meditator I knew) but I saw her as she really was, with no ignorance. I felt a feeling of great compassion and I cried. I saw her happening with open eyes infront of me but at the same time it was as real as real..

If experiences of stream entry have to do with the 5 doors described above, I think I entered the "Signless" door. Signlessness was something I experienced prior and after stream entry a lot, it was beautiful and it was this quality that drew in me great compassion and understanding, like in the time I saw the real actual person.

right now, I'm in awe to be reading this link and having myself had profound experiences. It makes me think theres more to dharma than just completing the physio-energetic circuit.

Cool link, DN!

KB - Keep us updated

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. Really helped settle some doubts I had, clarify what I thought might have been the case, and put a positive perspective on things. I'm not calling it for sure yet cuz it's still pretty soon (a month after), but I'm going on my hunch that it was stream-entry and will see what happens with more practice. Either way, I'm happy and reaping benefits, so that's awesome. Now to get back into the swing of regular practice. More fun and investigation to be had!

Steph

Hadn't had much practice time until the last few days.

Yesterday sat for an hour, quickly got to a state of deep absorption on the breath and blissed out.

Today I sat 4 times for about an hour apiece. First three sits, pretty frustrating. Was attempting to focus on the breath, and then on the body, to no avail. No ability to concentrate. Starting falling asleep.

On the final sit decided to just go for pure mindfulness of the rough texture of conscious experience. After some initial sloshing around, settled into a state of deep concentration, trying to stay with various pockets of energy as close as possible.

A couple of pretty interesting no-self subexperiences. For a few brief moments I was able to let go of the perceiver, and "be" the various pockets of energy zipping around. Since these pockets happen in parallel, the resulting sensation was a bifurcation of consciousness, being in two places at the same time and one perceiving the other.

Soon after that state ended, i noticed this aggregate of processes breathing in and out. There was still a weak sense of self in the mental realm (which felt like it might topple over at any moment), but it was totally disassociated from the physical body.

I ended the session in a state of strong equanimity, and perceiving things at a pretty bare level, vibrations in the 20hz range.

One take-home for me is that this insight technique seems to be the way to go for me, and attempting concentration on its own seems to be a waste of time at this stage.

Also I came with a good mental hack for letting go of the desire for blissful states or expectations about the meditation. For anyone pre-4th path, what we want to attain is something we haven't experienced yet. So why bother the mind with expectations for things that we know are less awesome than what is still out there, when we could be having an open mind and a better time.

most likely a&p stuff, but regardless of what stage on the path of insight this occurred at, your practice sounds well worth doing, and what you describe as a bifurcation of consciousness is well, well worth paying close attention to.. particularly if you're already familiar with equanimity regarding formations.




with an attitude like that, so-called 'dry insight' turns out to not be so dry after all.

tarin