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Ignore this thread. tamaha 1/6/20 2:56 PM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h neko 5/17/17 10:34 AM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h Bigbird 5/17/17 11:40 AM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h neko 5/17/17 1:33 PM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h Yamazaki 5/17/17 1:51 PM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h tamaha 5/18/17 3:02 AM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h Yamazaki 5/18/17 12:14 PM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h tamaha 5/19/17 1:14 PM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h Yamazaki 5/19/17 2:02 PM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h junglist 5/19/17 3:16 AM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h Jurica Kalcina 5/19/17 6:17 AM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h Noah D 5/17/17 5:14 PM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h tamaha 5/18/17 2:33 AM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h tamaha 5/19/17 1:17 PM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h Bigbird 5/26/17 11:45 AM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h Bigbird 5/26/17 1:11 PM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h tamaha 5/26/17 1:51 PM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h tamaha 5/26/17 1:47 PM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h Chi 5/28/17 6:38 PM
RE: Wish to spread Dhamma(My life's main goal ) is causing suffering. Any h tamaha 5/29/17 10:31 AM
Ignore this thread.
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1/6/20 2:56 PM
Kindly ignore this thread as this was clearly a typical rant of a post-1st Goenka-retreat Dark Night Yogi who recently had a mind blowing A&P. This is a clear case of naive, limited perspective, evangelical, over glorified, incorrectly understood Dharma mixed with lots of suffering from Dukhha nyanas. All of these issues almost immediately got resolved after reading MCTB and POI. Very Embarrassing and cringe worthy to read a few years down the lane. Haha! emoticon
Thanks! emoticonemoticonemoticon

Hello Goutam! Welcome to the forum. emoticon

I will be a bit blunt, apologies in advance if I am off the mark completely here!

It sounds like you are suffering because of the dharma(!)

This contradicts your belief that the dharma reduces suffering. Your experience tells you that the dharma is causing you pain, though. And one of the main premises of the dharma is that experience trumps theory. If I had your experience of the dharma, by the way you describe it, perhaps I would think that the dharma is a load of bull!

And probably that is the impression that you are giving your friends. The "preaching" does not match the way the dharma manifests in the "preacher", so they reject the dharma.

I would recommend to first of all solve this contradiction within yourself. If you haven't eliminated your own suffering, don't tell others that you know how to eliminate suffering... that only increases your suffering more! And makes you a pain in your friends' asses too probably! emoticon

So I would recommend to focus on your own practice. Set an example through deeds and refrain from proselytising. Help others when they ask for your help. Do not try to foist the whole dharma thing on them, start from your own experience, tell them how your practice helped you. Do not expect them to want to practice what you practice. Be available in case that comes up.

Last, but not least, practice full and respectful listening when interacting with sceptical friends. Always remind yourself that you might have something to learn from them, if the other way around does not work. They might be good nurses, good bus drivers, good school teachers, good lawyers, good lovers, good ice cream makers, good anything.

I have friends who are completely impermeable to anything spiritual, but have tons of compassion and are of huge service to others. I would suggest to start from this realisation.

This is a very unfortunate situation for all involved. Hopefully this is just a phase that will pass. I recommend that you make a copy of your post, frame it, and read it every morning. When the day comes that you cringe and shake your head in disbelief at this present view, it will be evidence that the Dharma works and you will be a much happier person. There is no fault or blame here, either now or in the future. So if the day ever comes when read your post and think what the fuck was i thinking, just recognize that there was a time when that's the way you saw things, and you were certain that your view was correct, then use this experience as fuel to give some space to everyone around, and let them develop accordingly.
For the moment use some sort of precept or principles and refrain from your current Dharma spreading tendencies, they are hinderances and not helpful to yourself or others.
Best wishes.

Bigbird:
This is a very unfortunate situation for all involved. Hopefully this is just a phase that will pass. I recommend that you make a copy of your post, frame it, and read it every morning. When the day comes that you cringe and shake your head in disbelief at this present view, it will be evidence that the Dharma works and you will be a much happier person. There is no fault or blame here, either now or in the future. So if the day ever comes when read your post and think what the fuck was i thinking, just recognize that there was a time when that's the way you saw things, and you were certain that your view was correct, then use this experience as fuel to give some space to everyone around, and let them develop accordingly.
For the moment use some sort of precept or principles and refrain from your current Dharma spreading tendencies, they are hinderances and not helpful to yourself or others.
Best wishes.

...and I was worried I was being blunt! emoticon 

Goutam:
If my primary aim in life is to spread the Dhamma and make people suffer less, and if that very aim is causing me suffering, how do I deal with it?

Details: 

Then I sit and observe my emotions- I see frustration and notice that the root cause of frustration is the fact that I have clinging. Clinging to spread dhamma/ make people understand, etc. And I come to the conclusion that this very desire is making me suffer.

If I think of letting go of it, I don’t see anymore purpose in life. I suddenly feel I am being selfish.


"Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. And if others insult, abuse, taunt, bother, & harass the Tathagata for that, he feels no hatred, no resentment, no dissatisfaction of heart because of that. And if others honor, respect, revere, & venerate the Tathagata for that, he feels no joy, no happiness, no elation of heart because of that."
-Alagaddupama Sutta

Clinging is based on delusion. Right now, your desire to teach the Dhamma comes at least partially from an egotistical desire to have a meaningful existence, not from pure compassion for other beings. If you truly want to teach the Dhamma, the right thing to do would be to let go of your desire to teach the Dhamma. In the case of Westerns, the biggest obstacle on the path is going to be doubt. The best antidote for doubt is evidence! You need to become that evidence by embodying the Dhamma. It is nearly impossible to change the mind of someone who is paradigm locked, like most of your friends likely are. Logic alone will not be enough, no matter how sound that logic is. You need to be living proof. In this way, your clinging to your desire to spread the Dhamma is inhibiting you being able to accomplish your goal. You will still want to spread the Dhamma after you have stopped all clinging, but for purely THEIR sake, not for you own. You will be like the Buddha in the sutta I quoted above: in complete equanimity regardless of the results of your efforts

On a more pragmatic note, the way I think about it, you can group all people into three categories: people who understand the Dhamma or want to understand the Dhamma, people who currently don’t know about the Dhamma but likely have the potential to come to understand it, and then people who are very unlikely to be able to understand the Dhamma, because they are closed minded and paradigm locked (your friends likely fall into this category). If you want to spread the Dhamma, seek out and focus on that middle category of people. People who are open minded, perhaps stuffering a lot and looking for a way out, or already spiritual to some degree

@OP, please read "Toxic Evangelism" essay by Daniel Ingram 

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/98527

Thank you very much everyone for taking time to respond and giving your valuable suggestions. I am humbled. emoticon

I will take your suggestion seriously @Bigbird, thank you. emoticon

@Noah D , thank you for the share. That was a much needed one. Good to know Daniel had an article written on this. emoticon

Yamazaki:

"Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. And if others insult, abuse, taunt, bother, & harass the Tathagata for that, he feels no hatred, no resentment, no dissatisfaction of heart because of that. And if others honor, respect, revere, & venerate the Tathagata for that, he feels no joy, no happiness, no elation of heart because of that."
-Alagaddupama Sutta

You gave me the best advice I was looking for. Can't thank you enough. emoticon 
Clinging is based on delusion. Right now, your desire to teach the Dhamma comes at least partially from an egotistical desire to have a meaningful existence, not from pure compassion for other beings. 

Spot on. I realise that my egotistical desire to have a meaningful existence has a big part to play in this clingling of mine. Thanks for pointing that out. But I find it hard to imagine living without a meaningful goal. Then I feel, what is the purpose of this all..? The whole point of life, etc.
your clinging to your desire to spread the Dhamma is inhibiting you being able to accomplish your goal. You will still want to spread the Dhamma after you have stopped all clinging, but for purely THEIR sake, not for you own... 

"Complete equanimity regardless of the results of your efforts".

Oh beautifully said. I should write this on my wall. emoticon

If you want to spread the Dhamma, seek out and focus on that middle category of people. People who are open minded, perhaps stuffering a lot and looking for a way out,..

I will take this suggestion.

So finally you mean to say, letting go this desire of mine to spread Dharma is NOT selfishness?
You mean to say it is not an act of 'running away' from the aversion to unpleasantness (unpleasantness of failure / frustration) just because it is causing suffering in me? 

Goutam:

I find it hard to imagine living without a meaningful goal. Then I feel, what is the purpose of this all..? The whole point of life, etc.

You find it hard to imagine because you can't imagine what it would be like to live from a place of no-self. And of course you can't; until it is experienced, however we imagine it will be merely a projection. But this is where we have to have faith in those who have successfully walked the path. Desire for "meaning" is the natural outcome of believing that you are a separate "thing"; the ego interprets meaningless as a negative thing. But awakened people tell us that in fact, the meaninglessness of the universe is also in fact meaningless! There is nothing negative about it. There can never be any ultimate meaning. The realization of no-self will make you understand that from an ultimate reality point of view, everything is already perfect; there is no need for any "meaning". But from a relative point of view, you can find meaning is helping others relive their suffering. Your understanding of suffering, combined with your understanding of the interconnectedness of all beings, will naturally inspire compassion that will lead you to do this. If this were not the case, Dhamma teachers would not exist.

Goutam:

So finally you mean to say, letting go this desire of mine to spread Dharma is NOT selfishness?
You mean to say it is not an act of 'running away' from the aversion to unpleasantness (unpleasantness of failure / frustration) just because it is causing suffering in me? 

If you can understand that not ending your own suffering will inhibit you from helping others end theirs, and that ending your own suffering will help you help others end theirs, then it should be clear that doing whatever it takes to end your own suffering is not at all "selfish". But more importantly, "selfish" is just an arbitrary concept made up by humans; it is considered "bad" in human society because it is not conducive to the thriving of the group. All of your suffering is based on stories that you are believing to be reality. If you need to tell your ego a new story to avoid feeling bad about your current story, try, "I could continue to teach the Dhamma while suffering if I wanted to, but I am choosing to end my own suffering first because that will help me help more people in the end, and that is what I value". That is what Bodhicitta is all about.

Hi Goutama,

Very interesting post, a couple of ideas come to mind:

- I reckon it’ll pass. 

- I’m interested in how you said you enter their discussion only if you are dragged into it, which sounds like a reluctance in teaching the dharma, and an intention which seems at odds with your life’s main goal.

- If you are having trouble with teaching, you could learn a bit about teaching methodology. It’s come along way since the chalk-and-blackboard and cane style of the past. In a dharma context, upaya springs to mind. In pedagogical parlance there is something that is sometimes called a "teachable moment", when a student is in a situation where they have the opportunity to can learn something. In language teaching, it might be something like a perfect opportunity to teach a new word or some grammar, where the context is right and the student can see what it means, can then use it, etc. If your student comes to your class of their own free will, that's a good start because they'll be open to it. If not, you'll have greater difficulty in creating these moments. Also something unexpected might also happen where a teachable moment might arise. I would see your suffering as a strong desire to have these moments, 

- Being with something completely yet not clinging to it, never knowing when it will fail, be taken away, hit you back in the face, but being cool with that seems like what it’s about. I think it will take practice. For me, I mean. ;)

I wish you all the very best.

Goutam, Yamazaki hit the nail on the head precisely!! 
Ive had a similar experience with my younger brother. I notice he struggles with things in life so I try so hard to give him advice and teach him things I have learnt from the past. It always turns into me working myself up into a frenzy because something I wish I had control over I begin to realise that I don't.
Then I think and realise it is MY wish not his wish to do the things I tell him. It is my idea I have in MY head of how I want things to be. Once I realised this I let go of this desire for him to be the way I want him to be and for him to live his life the way everyone should live it by experiencing it themselves and learning about it themselves. It is their life not your life and they can choose to do what they wish. 
As for how I feel about my brother, I just have to ACCEPT that he may never understand something's and he may suffer until the day he dies and I don't mean that in a bad way I just have to understand that may be his path. 
There is now a difference between our relationship. I'm not always teaching him how to do things, now I have time to just be his friend, laugh, make jokes which builds trust within each other. This then allows me to say and teach him things when a good time arises. 

Jure

Yamazaki
You find it hard to imagine because you can't  imagine what it would be like to live from a place of no-self...
Makes total sense. 
But awakened people tell us that in fact, the meaninglessness of the universe is also in fact meaningless!
Interesting line, this. Can I know more about this topic, if there is, in Buddhist circles? The meaning and meaninglessness. The meaninglessness of the meaninglessness.

 "I could continue to teach the Dhamma while suffering if I wanted to, but I am choosing to end my own suffering first because that will help me help more people in the end, and that is what I value"

This is the best way to deal with my problem right now. Thank you so much.

Thank you @Junglist and @Jure for your valuable feedbacks.

Goutam:

But awakened people tell us that in fact, the meaninglessness of the universe is also in fact meaningless!
Interesting line, this. Can I know more about this topic, if there is, in Buddhist circles? The meaning and meaninglessness. The meaninglessness of the meaninglessness.

Not Buddhist, but you might find this helpful: https://youtu.be/H0GbcGMar_E?t=16m50s

Dharma is a word that covers a huge variety of material. What exactly do you feel the need to tell people? Can you tell us?
I may have given you the impression that i wanted you to answer all my questions, which was not the case, therefore i have removed them. 
I'm only trying to get a reference point on what is actually meant by the Dharma. 

Sometimes when people do their first retreat or read their first Dharma book what they hear or read can sweep them away. They feel that anyone who hears or reads this will be convinced. Yet when they try and convey these ideas in most cases it just pisses people off, causing friction and suffering for all involved.
Rather than try and give explanations as to why this happens, i thought it may be comforting for you to know that this happens all the time to many others. I saw many go through this after a Goenke retreat, and were heavily impacted by his talks. Luckily for most it was just a phase and eventually passed away, as their practice progressed.

Bigbird:

I may have given you the impression that i wanted you to answer all my questions, which was not the case, therefore i have removed them. 



Thank you for the reply. Sorry, I wanted to reply. But I somehow got busy and couldn't reply.

Dharma is a word that covers a huge variety of material.

Yes, I am aware of it. Here I meant the insight practices in general.

What exactly do you feel the need to tell people?

How these simple, straight forward practices ends our suffering and brings peace to our lives.

Bigbird:
Sometimes when people do their first retreat or read their first Dharma book what they hear or read can sweep them away. 


Very true. I was in this stage too, for a short period of time.
I saw many go through this after a Goenke retreat, and were heavily impacted by his talks. Luckily for most it was just a phase and eventually passed away, as their practice progressed.

And I agree Goenka retreats have such impact on people. 

I've seen this tendency to want to change people in myself and others as well.

I find listening and practicing compassion and love is far more helpful than trying to prove through superiority of the Buddhas teachings. Understanding that we have no control even over ourselves let alone other people and simply accepting people as they are without judgment seems to be a wholesome attitude.

Good luck!

Chi:

Understanding that we have no control even over ourselves let alone other people and simply accepting people as they are without judgment seems to be a wholesome attitude..

That's true. emoticon Thank you.