4th path but still narrating and working on nonduality - Discussion
This is a question I have been meaning to ask for some time now, so I am glad you brought it up.
If I understand correctly, in MCTB Daniel seems to be a bit dismissive of the phenomenon of reduction in inner monologue as a milestone in progress or as useful in anyway, I think I recall some passages in which he seems to imply that it might be a bit of a red herring. Well, at least that is the impression that I came away with reading MCTB.
However, other practitioners, Gary Weber comes to mind, place a huge importance on "stillness". Being a bit of an MCTB-ist in my theoretical understanding of the path, I was quite a bit surprised when my self-talk started to get quieter, fainter, more distant and less sticky, and I still am not 100% sure what to make of it.
I hope this discussion takes off
If I understand correctly, in MCTB Daniel seems to be a bit dismissive of the phenomenon of reduction in inner monologue as a milestone in progress or as useful in anyway, I think I recall some passages in which he seems to imply that it might be a bit of a red herring. Well, at least that is the impression that I came away with reading MCTB.
However, other practitioners, Gary Weber comes to mind, place a huge importance on "stillness". Being a bit of an MCTB-ist in my theoretical understanding of the path, I was quite a bit surprised when my self-talk started to get quieter, fainter, more distant and less sticky, and I still am not 100% sure what to make of it.
I hope this discussion takes off
To make this easier, I hope, since you asked me about it, JC. This is the relevant exchange between my then-teacher Kenneth Folk and me on May 9th, 2010:
kennethfolk: I sometimes wonder about this. Am I seeing something now that was not here before? No, I don’t think so. What I am seeing now was here the whole time. I was just discounting it. I don’t see anything new. I’ve just lost the need to see something other than this. At least that’s one perspective. 
remember feeling very strongly in 2004 that I had wasted 22 years of seeking because I couldn’t now see anything that had not been here the whole time and yet what I could see now was good enough. I even based my teaching for several years on just asking people to directly see what I was seeing. It worked, too, for some people, for a few minutes, as long as I was with them. Then, they went back to suffering. I guess that’s when I went back to emphasizing the whole package, with a scaffolded approach and techniques that people could use. Whether it was a coincidence or not I couldn’t say, but I could see in so many yogis a correlation between decades of practice and the ability or willingness to see and accept what had been here the whole time. It is a wonderment.
cmarti: What prompted Kenneth’s last comment was this private message from me:
“Kenneth, I’ve become somehow laser beamed in on the nature of experience and I thus realized that it has to be only what it is, just what it is, and that somehow the seeking of some “it” factor, some nebulously defined desire to find a “thing” that would allow me to get the thing is ridiculous and a complete waste of time. This little tiny realization – why is this realization so oddly powerful? It has always, always been a part of my presumption about experience and what is going on — that there is something I wasn’t seeing. I’m seeing what there is to see, and the dropping of that unstated assumption about what is going on makes such a major difference. How odd! WTF??? It is as though the trying, the wishing, the assuming, is what gets in the way of just seeing. Over the past few days it has become more obvious that what happens is just plainly what happens. This is a such a weird little change to the thing. Is this possibly the result of the fact that I have been absolutely and relentlessly focused on this stuff for a few weeks now? When this began happening on Friday it was absolutely and abundantly clear, much like in non-dual awareness, that there is nothing simpler, though this is not like non-dual awareness but is its phenomenological cousin. Stop looking. Stop seeking, and just see. Of course, now that I type this it seems trite and silly and obvious. But it was not that way before and now it is.”
So somehow seeking is that which obscures finding.
remember feeling very strongly in 2004 that I had wasted 22 years of seeking because I couldn’t now see anything that had not been here the whole time and yet what I could see now was good enough. I even based my teaching for several years on just asking people to directly see what I was seeing. It worked, too, for some people, for a few minutes, as long as I was with them. Then, they went back to suffering. I guess that’s when I went back to emphasizing the whole package, with a scaffolded approach and techniques that people could use. Whether it was a coincidence or not I couldn’t say, but I could see in so many yogis a correlation between decades of practice and the ability or willingness to see and accept what had been here the whole time. It is a wonderment.cmarti: What prompted Kenneth’s last comment was this private message from me:
“Kenneth, I’ve become somehow laser beamed in on the nature of experience and I thus realized that it has to be only what it is, just what it is, and that somehow the seeking of some “it” factor, some nebulously defined desire to find a “thing” that would allow me to get the thing is ridiculous and a complete waste of time. This little tiny realization – why is this realization so oddly powerful? It has always, always been a part of my presumption about experience and what is going on — that there is something I wasn’t seeing. I’m seeing what there is to see, and the dropping of that unstated assumption about what is going on makes such a major difference. How odd! WTF??? It is as though the trying, the wishing, the assuming, is what gets in the way of just seeing. Over the past few days it has become more obvious that what happens is just plainly what happens. This is a such a weird little change to the thing. Is this possibly the result of the fact that I have been absolutely and relentlessly focused on this stuff for a few weeks now? When this began happening on Friday it was absolutely and abundantly clear, much like in non-dual awareness, that there is nothing simpler, though this is not like non-dual awareness but is its phenomenological cousin. Stop looking. Stop seeking, and just see. Of course, now that I type this it seems trite and silly and obvious. But it was not that way before and now it is.”
So somehow seeking is that which obscures finding.
neko:
shargrol:
Daniel, I wanted to ask you about this book at some point. I'm curious how you align one-pointedness, simplicity, one taste, and non-meditation with the 4 path model. I'm inclined to put one-pointedness, simplicity, and one taste as all late 3rd (and so subtle traps), non-mediation as 4th, and the lesser, medium, and greater non-meditation as the "snow melting after the sun rises" refinement that occurs post 4th. Curious what you think?
But basically, there are ways to fall into momentary confusion post 4th path, which are INSTANTLY seen as a fuck up. That sort of thing happens for long while, truth be told. It's humbling.
Saying this is very illusion shattering for perfectionists, but as Dogen said, the life of a zen master is one continuous mistake.
shargrol:
Read the book!
I did. Twice. And the Moonlight of Mahamudra (by the same author), Pointing Out the Great Way by Daniel Brown, and a couple more Mahamudra texts. So I have a decent theoretical, academic understanding of the topic, although my practice is far behind my theory
Really, I don't understand how you are using the numbering here. When you say "4th path" do you mean the practice between attaining 3rd path and attaining 4th path, or the practice after 4th path? When you say "non-meditation as 4th", do you mean that the practice of the 4th yoga of Mahamudra maps into the practice that leads one to 4th path? Or that you practice non-meditation after attaining 4th path?
"non-meditation as 4th"
means late 3rd path ends and 4th path occurs, when non-meditation becomes possible (as non-meditation is described in Clarifying...)
"practicing non-meditation after attaining 4th path"
I never said "practicing non-meditation". Snow doesn't have to practice in order to melt.
means late 3rd path ends and 4th path occurs, when non-meditation becomes possible (as non-meditation is described in Clarifying...)
"practicing non-meditation after attaining 4th path"
I never said "practicing non-meditation". Snow doesn't have to practice in order to melt.
Chris Marti:
I'm curious about why everything has to have path correlate. Does it? I'm not inclined to think so, but curious about what others think.
I definitely get why you would ask the question and I agree, there is no inherent need for things to correlate. But I found "Clarifying..." actually very helpful for teasing out how subtle insights are clinged to in late 3rd, which is why I tend to see a practical value in looking at it with that lense.
But whether it really correlates -- I don't know. I'm curious what others think, too!
shargrol:
"non-meditation as 4th"
means late 3rd path ends and 4th path occurs, when non-meditation becomes possible (as non-meditation is described in Clarifying...)
means late 3rd path ends and 4th path occurs, when non-meditation becomes possible (as non-meditation is described in Clarifying...)
My impression is that the first two yogas of Mahamudra do not map directly to any Theravadin paths. This from my own practice, I think we agree on this.
From my mostly theoretical understanding (for what it's worth), I am a bit surprised by your mapping, because I was under the impression that completion of the 4th yoga of Mahamudra might be Theravadin 4th path. (In fact, post-enlightenment instructions are provided after the 4th yoga of Mahamudra.)
Personally, I was tempted to draw analogies between completion of 3rd path and completion of One Taste, what with all the descriptions of the realisation of the nonduality of appearance/emptiness, thought/perceptions mind/perceptions as being complete, but there being residuals of the subject/object nonduality (to be fixed during the 4th yoga). And then there's the "savouring" of some of the aspects of the nondualities realised so far, which seem to map nicely on Daniel's description of a 3rd pather's fascination with luminosity and so on.
I am curious to know why you think I am wrong on this, but, if I understand correctly, the point is that you still consider some residuals of duality to remain after MCTB 4th path. right?
shargrol:
"practicing non-meditation after attaining 4th path"
I never said "practicing non-meditation". Snow doesn't have to practice in order to melt.
Tomayto tomahto
The 4th yoga of Mahamudra provides noninstructions for the nonpractice of nonmeditation. Better?
Coolness! Okay, so what you need to practice is straightforward in one sense... and very complex in another. The straightforward aspect is your job is to learn about "5 Element" practice.
There are not a lot of discussions of it, but the basic model/method I pointed you towards is described in this book: The Spectrum of Ecstasy. Here's a write-up introduction: http://arobuddhism.org/articles/embracing-emotions-as-the-path.html
Ken McLeod has a lot of information on the elements on his website: http://unfetteredmind.org/?s=five+elements There is also a description of this practice in his book "Wake Up to your Life".
I have some posts about it over at AwakeNetwork, too.
The straightforward part is you need to develop a basic literacy with the idea that there are 5 major types of subtle reactions. The very complex part is you need to start seeing them in your sitting practice and as you walk around. This isn't something that a teacher can teach you, but something you have to play around with -- but hey, this is a pragmatic dharma site, we have no problem with that! That said, I'm glad to answer questions/talk/etc.
The whole thing is develop another level of sensetitivty to subtle reactive patterns. Those sublte reactive patterns are what prevents you from resting in openness/emptiness.
I really got a lot of benefit to this practice. Although anyone can do it, it seems very well suited for third-path-ish meditators.
Best wishes!
There are not a lot of discussions of it, but the basic model/method I pointed you towards is described in this book: The Spectrum of Ecstasy. Here's a write-up introduction: http://arobuddhism.org/articles/embracing-emotions-as-the-path.html
Ken McLeod has a lot of information on the elements on his website: http://unfetteredmind.org/?s=five+elements There is also a description of this practice in his book "Wake Up to your Life".
I have some posts about it over at AwakeNetwork, too.
The straightforward part is you need to develop a basic literacy with the idea that there are 5 major types of subtle reactions. The very complex part is you need to start seeing them in your sitting practice and as you walk around. This isn't something that a teacher can teach you, but something you have to play around with -- but hey, this is a pragmatic dharma site, we have no problem with that!
That said, I'm glad to answer questions/talk/etc.The whole thing is develop another level of sensetitivty to subtle reactive patterns. Those sublte reactive patterns are what prevents you from resting in openness/emptiness.
I really got a lot of benefit to this practice. Although anyone can do it, it seems very well suited for third-path-ish meditators.
Best wishes!
shargrol:
Just a heads up: Spectrum of Ecstasy is kind of a quirky book. But it has a slant about the 5 element practice which is kind of interesting. Ken McLeod's book is probably ultimately better -- more clear directions for practice and development -- and it includes other good methods for advanced meditators.
I bought both
But I could only get Spectrum of Ecstasy on the Kindle, the McLeod is a paperback that will take a couple weeks to reach me. From the first few chapters of Spectrum of Ecstasy, I definitely see some of the quirkiness already. However, there's a directness to the writing, as exotic as it appears on the surface, that I am really digging.
The most I have worked with this kind of thing is the guided practices on the kleshas in Reggie Ray's Mahamudra audio series, which were helpful but a little too much on the blunt "feel this emotion very strongly" side. I would really like to go deeper into this work at a subtler level, where things become quite a bit harder to detect or even know about.
shargrol:
Hibiscus Kid:
Hey Shargrol (or anyone else),
Could you elaborate or give an example of "falling into confusion" post 4th? Does this mean that a person would regress back to late 3rd similar to how Daniel was fluctuating on his retreat with Sayadaw U Pandita Jr.? Or what do these "fuck ups" entail?
Could you elaborate or give an example of "falling into confusion" post 4th? Does this mean that a person would regress back to late 3rd similar to how Daniel was fluctuating on his retreat with Sayadaw U Pandita Jr.? Or what do these "fuck ups" entail?
Could you say more about "falling into confusion"? Not sure what you are referencing.
Ah, now I see that you were quoting me!
And with the quote box above, I'm quoting me quoting you quoting me. "Falling into confusion" is a way to say that there is refinement that occurs after 4th path, but I'm not saying it involves falling into a kind of pre-awakening confusion. The insight of awakening doesn't go away. You could say it's more like semi-lucid dreaming, not quite entrapped in dream but not quite clear either, and when you wake up there is nothing to do about it because you know it was a dream.
Some of my favorite posters on this thread. Nice to see it again.
I first read this thread two years ago and, as I often would when a salient thread popped up, copied anything I thought might be helpful into my running "4th Path Homework" document I had at the time. I was sure I was close back then, but couldn't work out what I was missing... what I wasn't getting. A stranger to the methods of Daniel's book and the pervasive Theravada flavor of the board, it took me a few cycles to see just what was meant by the term, and even then most of the subtleties of the phases passed without being noticed, having trained in Dzogchen for 20+ years, then Zen for the last 4. It is just a different way of approaching things. As many have said, 3rd path felt like cycle after cycle for me. Always a deepening, but never quite the "pop" I knew would be there when deeper seeing through happened. Naturally I leaned in and pushed harder and harder.
In April I got caught in a cycle around the idea that there might be some new practice I could do or knowledge I could acquire to finally make this shift happen, and realized after a week or so that I was trapped in a minor seeking phase again, despite the fact that I knew that ultimately there was no-one to do a practice, and no practices to do. In late May, I could feel another deepening, a vaster deepening, and with it a shift it took me a day or so to really "get". Everything was so much more quiet... joyful. I finally realized what had changed... for "me" what shifted was so simple... so ridiculous. I realized that I had still been identifying with the remnants of this self that would arise and fall away... that "self" was still a thought process I was getting caught in identifying with as someone who practices or had something to finish. I had still retained a subtle thought that "I" could deepen my insight, or that there was an "I" to "do" it, even though I thought I had done away with the illusion of agency/doership a few years ago.
It is such a relief to konw that I will never again get caught. It is obvious that "self" is just a particular pattern of thoughts that arises and passes like anything else. A few months in now, and it just all feels "normal". Complete. Stress free. The tension is gone.
I am very VERY grateful for the assistance, advice and reassurance at different points of Shargrol, Chris Marti, Neko, DreamWalker, and of course Daniel and numerous others here for their pointing or co-seeking at various times since 2015 after my stream entry.
I notice that the deepening hasn't stopped.
Nice to see it again. I first read this thread two years ago and, as I often would when a salient thread popped up, copied anything I thought might be helpful into my running "4th Path Homework" document I had at the time. I was sure I was close back then, but couldn't work out what I was missing... what I wasn't getting. A stranger to the methods of Daniel's book and the pervasive Theravada flavor of the board, it took me a few cycles to see just what was meant by the term, and even then most of the subtleties of the phases passed without being noticed, having trained in Dzogchen for 20+ years, then Zen for the last 4. It is just a different way of approaching things. As many have said, 3rd path felt like cycle after cycle for me. Always a deepening, but never quite the "pop" I knew would be there when deeper seeing through happened. Naturally I leaned in and pushed harder and harder.
In April I got caught in a cycle around the idea that there might be some new practice I could do or knowledge I could acquire to finally make this shift happen, and realized after a week or so that I was trapped in a minor seeking phase again, despite the fact that I knew that ultimately there was no-one to do a practice, and no practices to do. In late May, I could feel another deepening, a vaster deepening, and with it a shift it took me a day or so to really "get". Everything was so much more quiet... joyful. I finally realized what had changed... for "me" what shifted was so simple... so ridiculous. I realized that I had still been identifying with the remnants of this self that would arise and fall away... that "self" was still a thought process I was getting caught in identifying with as someone who practices or had something to finish. I had still retained a subtle thought that "I" could deepen my insight, or that there was an "I" to "do" it, even though I thought I had done away with the illusion of agency/doership a few years ago.
It is such a relief to konw that I will never again get caught. It is obvious that "self" is just a particular pattern of thoughts that arises and passes like anything else. A few months in now, and it just all feels "normal". Complete. Stress free. The tension is gone.
I am very VERY grateful for the assistance, advice and reassurance at different points of Shargrol, Chris Marti, Neko, DreamWalker, and of course Daniel and numerous others here for their pointing or co-seeking at various times since 2015 after my stream entry.
I notice that the deepening hasn't stopped.
Stirling Campbell:
I finally realized what had changed... for "me" what shifted was so simple... so ridiculous. I realized that I had still been identifying with the remnants of this self that would arise and fall away... that "self" was still a thought process I was getting caught in identifying with as someone who practices or had something to finish. I had still retained a subtle thought that "I" could deepen my insight, or that there was an "I" to "do" it, even though I thought I had done away with the illusion of agency/doership a few years ago.
It is such a relief to konw that I will never again get caught. It is obvious that "self" is just a particular pattern of thoughts that arises and passes like anything else. A few months in now, and it just all feels "normal". Complete. Stress free. The tension is gone.
It is such a relief to konw that I will never again get caught. It is obvious that "self" is just a particular pattern of thoughts that arises and passes like anything else. A few months in now, and it just all feels "normal". Complete. Stress free. The tension is gone.
Sounds like you are a member of the ridiculous club!!! Nice!!!
shargrol:
Stirling Campbell:
I finally realized what had changed... for "me" what shifted was so simple... so ridiculous. I realized that I had still been identifying with the remnants of this self that would arise and fall away... that "self" was still a thought process I was getting caught in identifying with as someone who practices or had something to finish. I had still retained a subtle thought that "I" could deepen my insight, or that there was an "I" to "do" it, even though I thought I had done away with the illusion of agency/doership a few years ago.
It is such a relief to konw that I will never again get caught. It is obvious that "self" is just a particular pattern of thoughts that arises and passes like anything else. A few months in now, and it just all feels "normal". Complete. Stress free. The tension is gone.
It is such a relief to konw that I will never again get caught. It is obvious that "self" is just a particular pattern of thoughts that arises and passes like anything else. A few months in now, and it just all feels "normal". Complete. Stress free. The tension is gone.
Sounds like you are a member of the ridiculous club!!! Nice!!!That sneaky old dharmic ghost in the machine! Seeking for the sake of seeking ...
J C:
I'd really like to see your "4th Path Homework" document!
I'd love to say it was the key, but it really wasn't. The document is a combination of things. Pointers from threads like this on where to look, and some more definitive (my opinion) descriptions about what "4th Path" looks like.
Honestly, Stream Entry gives you everything that you need to move forward, from my perspective. If you can trust your glimpse of non-dual reality, you KNOW that "self" is illusory along with the "thing"ness of everything else. Investigating this deeply led me to this point. Shortly after Stream Entry, you should start to see the non-duality everywhere, any time you look for it. Where is the non-duality in Time or Space? Where is the non-duality of Self? These are places I looked and resolved. The one thing that seems oddly conspicuous by its absence in most things I have read is what was MY final step. From my perspective, it is finally, totally, and completely seeing through the illusion that "you" are someone, doing something. You aren't a person on a path, and no practices got you here. When you finally see that past, future, self, other, etc. are all just thoughts cobbled together to create illusory constructs you are there. My guess is that one of these is the last hook... for me it was this last idea that something I could do would crack it, and finally seeing through that.
So do you consider yourself 4th now, even though the deepening hasn't stopped and even though the "self" thought process still arises and passes?
"Self" is no longer a thought process that arises, but individual thoughts that are not "mine". Individual self-referential thoughts arise and pass like any other sense door input. "Thought process", from my perspective is the feedback loop of the mind sense door feeding back into itself. This is your normal self-referential, "I need to pay the rent", "I hope I can afford it", I'm such an asshole for not having a better job", "I need to work more hours if I am going to support this lifestyle", etc. ad adflictio. "Self" is the interference pattern this feedback creates. IMHO 4th path is the end of "self", not the end of deepening. 4th path is not the end in the Mahamudra path by any means. Bhumis:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhūmi_(Buddhism)#Ten_bhūmis_of_the_Daśabhūmika_Sūtra
What do you mean when you say that it still arises and passes but you don't get caught in identifying with it? What is it other than identification? How does it still arise if there is no identification?
Self arises and passes like any other phenomena. If you look at a wall, can you see the flickering/pixelization/confetti of reality changing moment to moment? All appearances are like this. "Self" is like this. It is seen to be empty, just as any other phenomena is. It arises like any other phenoma, moment to moment, empty of self, or any other conceptual or personal identification.
Are outside appearances "I"? Is the thought process "I"? The idea that a "self" does a set of practices and becomes enlightenment is an illusory fantasy based on the idea that there is some "I" to accomplish it.
Or are you just referring to the thought "I" immediately seen through and understood as illusory as soon as it arises?
There is no process, or self to have one. The "I" thoughts are no longer self-referential, and arise and pass moment to moment like any other phenomena.
This is all ONLY my opinion. Obviously I have completely lost my mind.
shargrol:
Stirling Campbell:
I finally realized what had changed... for "me" what shifted was so simple... so ridiculous. I realized that I had still been identifying with the remnants of this self that would arise and fall away... that "self" was still a thought process I was getting caught in identifying with as someone who practices or had something to finish. I had still retained a subtle thought that "I" could deepen my insight, or that there was an "I" to "do" it, even though I thought I had done away with the illusion of agency/doership a few years ago.
It is such a relief to konw that I will never again get caught. It is obvious that "self" is just a particular pattern of thoughts that arises and passes like anything else. A few months in now, and it just all feels "normal". Complete. Stress free. The tension is gone.
It is such a relief to konw that I will never again get caught. It is obvious that "self" is just a particular pattern of thoughts that arises and passes like anything else. A few months in now, and it just all feels "normal". Complete. Stress free. The tension is gone.
Sounds like you are a member of the ridiculous club!!! Nice!!!I guess so!
I think it was you first offered some confirmation that what initially happened to me was Stream Entry. Thank you so much for your sincerity and genuine willingness to help on this board.
Stirling Campbell:
Self arises and passes like any other phenomena.
Yes, I also think this is the lynchpin of 4th. As a statement it's trite, because everyone has seen this all along.
All our ego development in our life has been motivated by a sense of weak and illusive self. As children and teenagers and early adulthood we sense the self arising an passing and we attempt to building up the ego to make it solid and unpassing. This is good healthy human development.
It doesn't work out the way we planned, though, and as adults we don't become solid and singular. We start realizing even greater nuance to the ego and it's manifestation. A healthy adult has many versions of themselves, social roles/identies, which arise and pass, appropriately and according to the situation. But the shifting between roles and identities always feels a bit awkward and unauthentic so we keep investigating...
Then meditation comes along and really helps promote a sane flow of identifications and "selves" and allows ego to flux and change according to the situation in a much more radical way. All of the experiential aspects that seemed to make up ego roles/identities are seen through at a smaller and smaller detail. Sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts are seen to be the component pieces. Big chunks of identity are seen through because they are seen as fabricated from smaller elements of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts. We realize that to become more resilient and sane, we need to refline how we experience things at a much more elemental level.
At some point we go "all in" and try to get to the bottom of the matter. We start seeing how things are neither completely real (solid) nor are they completely unreal (illusion). We use words like emptiness to talk about how things are vivid and apparent and yet can change in millisecond. We see the self this way too, vivid and changing, empty, and strive to get to the bottom of it. And SO MUCH clarity and wisdom and morality comes from being able to finely discern the operation of the self, it's creativity and it's paranoid defenses....
And yet part of us holds onto the idea that through practice "we can attend our own funeral". We think "I will get to the bottom of it" -- yet I is the bottom of it
We think "maybe practice will show me what I need to awaken", but we rarely notice the subject-object construct in that idea "practice shows me" -- what is practice? what is me? what will see it? what, exactly, will awaken? But practice takes on a path of it's own, interesting driven by two of the last three fetters (pride and restlessness). Nothing wrong with that. It's good meditator development and practice. But there is a very humbling and even deflating sense of seeing through the self at 4th. When pride and restlessness run themselves out, then the basic ignorance becomes apparent. It is ridiculous in retrosepct. But it's also the end result of a LOT of investigation and development and refinement, which is inherently valuable, so there is not much disappointment after the odd shock of it wears off.
And there is nothing to show for it. It's a bit like climbing a mountain and then coming back to where you started and people wonder why you can't show them the mountain, why you think the mountain exists, and, anyway, why would you climb a mountain if you just wind up back here?
"Self" is the interference pattern this feedback creates."
+1 Nicely put.
+1 Nicely put.
Borrowed this idea from an article on particle physics I read recently that was saying that it was most likely that particles are not really things, just a place where two fields interact and create an interference pattern. You could say this about duality too - duality is created where conceptual ideation or "self" create an interference pattern with the dharmakaya.
shargrol:
Yes, I also think this is the lynchpin of 4th. As a statement it's trite, because everyone has seen this all along.
Right?!?! I was sure I had nailed my understanding of the emptiness of self after SE, but just how much this is only a fictional, cobbled together process ends up having so much more depth.
All our ego development in our life has been motivated by a sense of weak and illusive self. As children and teenagers and early adulthood we sense the self arising an passing and we attempt to building up the ego to make it solid and unpassing. This is good healthy human development.
It doesn't work out the way we planned, though, and as adults we don't become solid and singular. We start realizing even greater nuance to the ego and it's manifestation. A healthy adult has many versions of themselves, social roles/identies, which arise and pass, appropriately and according to the situation. But the shifting between roles and identities always feels a bit awkward and unauthentic so we keep investigating...
Then meditation comes along and really helps promote a sane flow of identifications and "selves" and allows ego to flux and change according to the situation in a much more radical way. All of the experiential aspects that seemed to make up ego roles/identities are seen through at a smaller and smaller detail. Sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts are seen to be the component pieces. Big chunks of identity are seen through because they are seen as fabricated from smaller elements of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts. We realize that to become more resilient and sane, we need to refline how we experience things at a much more elemental level.
It doesn't work out the way we planned, though, and as adults we don't become solid and singular. We start realizing even greater nuance to the ego and it's manifestation. A healthy adult has many versions of themselves, social roles/identies, which arise and pass, appropriately and according to the situation. But the shifting between roles and identities always feels a bit awkward and unauthentic so we keep investigating...
Then meditation comes along and really helps promote a sane flow of identifications and "selves" and allows ego to flux and change according to the situation in a much more radical way. All of the experiential aspects that seemed to make up ego roles/identities are seen through at a smaller and smaller detail. Sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts are seen to be the component pieces. Big chunks of identity are seen through because they are seen as fabricated from smaller elements of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts. We realize that to become more resilient and sane, we need to refline how we experience things at a much more elemental level.
Agree with all of this.
And yet part of us holds onto the idea that through practice "we can attend our own funeral". We think "I will get to the bottom of it" -- yet I is the bottom of it We think "maybe practice will show me what I need to awaken", but we rarely notice the subject-object construct in that idea "practice shows me" -- what is practice? what is me? what will see it? what, exactly, will awaken? But practice takes on a path of it's own, interesting driven by two of the last three fetters (pride and restlessness). Nothing wrong with that. It's good meditator development and practice.
We think "maybe practice will show me what I need to awaken", but we rarely notice the subject-object construct in that idea "practice shows me" -- what is practice? what is me? what will see it? what, exactly, will awaken? But practice takes on a path of it's own, interesting driven by two of the last three fetters (pride and restlessness). Nothing wrong with that. It's good meditator development and practice. Absolutely! I just kept thinking, "Maybe what I need is a practice I haven't done/been doing to crack this", when the best way proceed, at least in my case, was to continue to let what was practiced arise spontaneously even when it wasn't any kind of practice at all.
But there is a very humbling and even deflating sense of seeing through the self at 4th. When pride and restlessness run themselves out, then the basic ignorance becomes apparent. It is ridiculous in retrosepct. But it's also the end result of a LOT of investigation and development and refinement, which is inherently valuable, so there is not much disappointment after the odd shock of it wears off.
Yes. It was hilarious for me, as it was for Chris (thank you for sharing your logs about this Chris, by the way) - SO obvious, but it was never something you were going to precipitate anyway.
And there is nothing to show for it. It's a bit like climbing a mountain and then coming back to where you started and people wonder why you can't show them the mountain, why you think the mountain exists, and, anyway, why would you climb a mountain if you just wind up back here?
Haha... absolutely! And yet, there is still this journey, this moment, still evolving from nowhere to nowhere. Finished is, surprisingly NOT finished. Thanks for this Shargrol.
I'd still be interested in reading it, if you'd be willing - PMed you.
I'll PM you about this soon.
Agree completely. And many of these things you need to see through not just once, but over and over and over again, until they're finally seen through.
Yes, I'd agree. They become clearer/deeper, or more aspects untie each time. Crucial for me were several deepenings and the experimentation I did/had around doership and agency.
Yeah, the way the different traditions line up is not always perfectly clear. The problem is made worse by the way the Tibetans have a habit of trashtalking the other traditions or putting their own system above the others.
Don't think of it as a problem, think of it as a call to investigation. Any system (and NO system) are dharma.
I follow Daniel here in saying that the end point of all the practices is the same - just this moment. So when I say "4th Path" I mean the end of the line, which is 4th path in Theravada, and also the endpoint of Mahamudra and Dzogchen.
I'd have to see his actually quote on that to decide if I could agree. It sounds like an oversimplification, though "just this moment" is certainly always true, whether it is your experience or not. I'm not sure I agree with it alone as a summation, and I may be wrong, but I'm not sure Daniel would either. I'd say (did say) that 4th Path, IMHO, is the realization that "self" arises and passes like all other phenomena. The final seeing through self is the key. It is an "ending", but of the path where your "self" tags along. The Bhumi systems suggests further realizations past this point - my feeling is that this will be correct. I don't have any of those yet, but I'd be interested to hear from anyone further out who would care to comment. There is still deepening, so I suspect things will continue to shift in interesting ways/depths.
In any case, what I meant was, do you consider yourself done with dualistic perception? Deepening in the sense of integration can continue for the rest of your life, but I'm talking about "healing the split" as MCTB calls it.
Yes.
But if I understand you correctly, you're saying something different - you're saying not just that self-referential thoughts still arise and pass, but that self arises and passes.
I think the most comprehensive way to put it is that anything and everything (especially "your" thoughts) that you identify as "self" arises and passes and always has. None of it is seen as "self" HERE at this point. How is that?
I'm not there yet, but my view, my understanding of the endpoint, is that self-referential thoughts still arise and pass, but the feeling of self, duality, agency, free will, controlling no longer arises.
Is that where you are? After my previous experience starting this thread thinking I was 4th, and since realizing the good news that there was even better stuff to come, I'm wary of thinking I'm done when I'm not.
Is that where you are? After my previous experience starting this thread thinking I was 4th, and since realizing the good news that there was even better stuff to come, I'm wary of thinking I'm done when I'm not.
Yes, that is my experience. Speaking only from my own experience, you'll know when you are "done". There is a feeling that there is nothing more to seek, and no-one to do so.
curious:
Culadasa makes the comment that on reaching 4th the emotions go offline for a while and then reboot, so you can feel kind of strange and not very human for a while. Daniel points out that 4th is a specific terminus to the path of insight but that there is no limit on concentration or morality, so these can continue to develop with the effects that those will have.
Emotions for me are definitely further diminished since the path change, but the joy/bliss component is still coming up regularly. Jeffrey Martin, whose research I think is fine to label "of interest", but probably not 100% reliable, suggests that there are further "locations" along two paths after 4th, and that one of them sees the emotional component re-emerging. I take all of it with a grain of salt.
There may also be a development of depth and access in different frames of reference as 4th path plays out. But I think mostly there is an ongoing unfolding, and a sense of present mindfulness with that unfolding ... So I just googled endless unfolding ... and came up with this great video discussion between Rich Doyle and Gary Weber which I watched and highly recommend.
I'll have to watch that one, if I haven't. I might be alone here, but I actually quite like Weber in many respects, though the sciency presentations have me scratching my head a little.
On bhumis I am a little cautious, just as I am about some aspects of theravadan or even sutta accounts. They are traditionally achieved within a monastic framework, so there may be a mix of insight effects, morality, concentration and lifestyle effects. This can make it hard to tease out what is an insight effect alone.
Sure. I feel very cautious about ANY conceptual framework that has any claim to definitely define any of this. I'll be curious to see what it looks like.
For me, there was a difference between feeling and knowing. I felt done about three times but somehow knew I was not, quite, at that point.
I agree that knowing is probably the better word here, in a sea of useless conceptual noise.
