Accidental dark night at very early age?

Eduardo Crespo, modified 13 Years ago at 7/20/10 10:52 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/20/10 10:52 AM

Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 8 Join Date: 7/20/10 Recent Posts
Is it possible for say a 6 year old to accidentally enter the dark night? The reason I ask my sound silly and unlikely but I must know. I am 17 right now and ever since I was six I just felt bad and dissatisfied with life. I also have had many kundalini-like exeriences and energetic sensations my whole life since then. I was never able to enjoy my childhood or adolescence even if things where fine.I went to many psychologists and psychiatrists and have responded to no treatment at all. I went to acupuncture and bioenergetic specialists and I have not improved. I am really just sick of lfe and I don't know why. Ijust feel bad inside when I'm in my better moods. When I was 6 I would stay up many hours at a time just looking into my room and swing all the dots and pulses that I know now are the vibrations. It was around that time that I began to have problems. Before that my life was fine. I always have this terrible feeling in my chest and throat that never goes away. I have tried everything and nothing seems to work. Is this possibly the dark night? If so what should I do?
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Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 7/21/10 1:42 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/21/10 1:42 AM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

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Hello Eduardo,

Well, although I never heard of a six year old dark nighter before, it could be the case... I simply don't think there is enough data on this matter to give you an actual answer (yes it is possible/no it must be something else). But if you feel like life sucks, and you have had energetic experiences and so on, then that really fits the bill.

You could do a daily practice of Tai Chi, for instance, and that should bring some relief, both in the short term (just after a practice session) and in the long run.

If it is indeed the dark night, you could start doing vipassana, going on retreats and so on, until you get stream entry. This should bring a clear and very obvious relief.

I hope you get better,
Bruno
Eduardo Crespo, modified 13 Years ago at 7/22/10 2:01 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/22/10 2:01 PM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 8 Join Date: 7/20/10 Recent Posts
Well I could give more data. For example: All day I feel dissatisfied with everything and nothing makes me happy(even when I put an effort to enjoy life). I feel energetic sensations very often. Some are like swooping inside of me downwards. I get a lot of pains in my solar plexus area, chest, and pressure in my third eye which increases when I concentrate on it. Also I had a terrible experience a couple of months ago where I smoked pot (bad idea I know) and for some reason I just can't enjoy it. Instead I just begin to see everything in frames and suffer more. Then after that I spent days crying about how every moment in life is temporary and everything just goes away (I guess that was insight that hit me hard).
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Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 7/22/10 6:15 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/22/10 6:10 PM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

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Ah, well, that is dark night. I mean, as much as I can, with my own personal experience, judge from a short paragraph, you have written the most effective six lines I can think of. That is dark night, and stream entry is the way to go. (I'm assuming you have little or no meditation experience in what follows)

You can get to stream entry in two ways. A gradual, soft, friendly way, which takes a lot of time, or a powerful, hardcore, gung-ho way, which is a lot quicker for this particular goal.

For the first way, I suggest you learn a tai chi form, in a complete and committed way (with a knowledgeable teacher), and do it two times a day. This will make things better, although it may take a long time until you notice serious difference (say, 6 months to 1 year of regular bidaily practice). Eventually this gives you stream entry (a member of our forum, Chuck, got it this way). And it's so cool to do it in the park emoticon

For the second way, you can learn vipassana, mahasi noting style:
  • If you aren't sure that this is what you want to do (that means finding out why you'd want to do it rather than just "do it because someone on a forum said you should"), then I suggest you do Tai Chi instead.
  • Learn how to do mahasi noting. You can learn how in the book "Practical Insight Meditation" by Mahasi Sayadaw.
  • Learn what to expect, get a frame of reference, read Daniel Ingram's Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha (MCTB ).
  • Learn what it means to remain reasonably equanimous with stuff, not to react very violently with more mental junk, even if you're going through a hard time. This is important, because you'll be changing your mind in deep places, and when working in these areas some weird stuff might come up. If you remain equanimous, these things will simply pass and you should be OK (everything just goes away, remember? emoticon ), if you don't, you can go nuts.
  • Learn it well enough that you can answer most of your own questions (like "what if I feel bored during meditation").
  • Finally, go on retreat and resolve to attain stream entry, and get it.


You might feel drawn towards the hardcore approach, e.g., because it likely feels as if you "just need to get rid of the suffering right now," but a gradual approach to enlightenment has a few merits. It has the advantage of being more stable, and doing it hardcore is something you might find yourself regretting over and over during the more difficult phases. The hardcore approach will give you very clear and obvious evidence that you are really "changing your mind," as a lot of change can happen in a very obvious way in a short amount of time. Furthermore it might leave you with the ability to "keep it together" through almost any situation, as this ability will become a necessity during the hardest moments (read MCTB ).



With regards to your description: you seem to be having insights into impermanence and non satisfactoriness. I got those two, and yes they are horrible.

There are less-unfriendly ways of looking at impermanence and unsatisfactoriness. Impermanence, when you're in a good mood, feels like constant-renovation instead of constant-decay. Non-satisfactoriness kind of evens out things --- instead of believing you'll be happy when you "finally get That Thing I can't have", you know that "even if I get That Thing I wanted but can't have I still wouldn't be satisfied," which kind of sets makes it silly not to just be happy now, and have fun anyway ("if nothing satisfies, one might as well fuck it all and have a laugh").

These different takes on impermanence and unsatisfactoriness have been slowly developing for me over time, and they are not the result of philosophical consideration, they just seem to be what is left of these two insights when the physical and mental pain finally goes away.

And Eduardo, they will go away with these practices. That is a common result of doing them, and you can expect that to happen.

I mean, relief is on the way.
This Good Self, modified 13 Years ago at 7/22/10 9:54 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/22/10 8:57 PM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Bruno, you have stream entry and yet you have all those symptoms of depression yourself, described in a recent thread. So why would you advocate that Ed attains stream entry when it hasn't worked for you? Are you sure you're not 'dressing up' depression to make it look prettier? All those symptoms Ed describes can be the result of major depression, including the vibrations and swooping feelings, both of which I had before I started meds. I'm now off meds (about 1 month) thanks to a common sense approach that centered around building self acceptance. I also got some help in my physical symptoms from practising vipassana, but that was mild by comparison.

Ed, you grew up as an only adopted child to wealthy parents, separated from your younger sister at age 4.....am I right?
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Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 7/23/10 7:33 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/23/10 7:33 AM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

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This should be made clear for you Eduardo: stream entry is not the end of all these pains, it is just a tremendous relief. It won't tell you how to pick up the pieces of a life broken by a Dark Night, CCC's advice and general psychological stuff seems closer to what that might be like.

If you want to check out the whole self-acceptance thing, go right ahead, maybe it works. To me it sounds too much like self help.

CCC have you thought that feeling better and feeling self acceptance is a result of you taking meds and doing meditation, rather than self acceptance itself being a cause of anything whatsoever? How much did you really test this self acceptance thing? Have you gone through bouts of serious, outstanding mental pain, and did it work then? How can you know it is "self acceptance" unless you do a rigorous test (stop taking meds, stop doing meditation)?

I find that the self-acceptance that I am developing is a result rather than a cause. Couldn't it be that you took meds and did vipassana, got better because of that, and came through thinking, for some reason, that it was all just a matter of "self acceptance"?

A great plus for doing a mindfulness-based practice like mahasi noting. I can tell you that compared to my 2009 depression, this second rough period was a breeze. I was able to keep it together in the sense that I could do things, I would go out of the house, take care of myself properly, have moments of joy, be friendly to others despite myself, etc. I was going through serious mental pain, but still I was able to function. That's why I didn't call it depression, as I have already mentioned in this thread.

Do you think that if you get such an episode of "depressive-like symptoms", your whole "self acceptance" thing will stand? Or do you believe that, having this "self acceptance" thing, no "depressive-like symptoms" will ever happen again?


Anyway, Eduardo, you could try and go to a psychiatrist or psychologist, if you haven't already, and check it out. I personally found that most of them (and certainly all I have personally worked with) have little clue about how the mind actually works.
This Good Self, modified 13 Years ago at 7/23/10 11:23 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/23/10 11:23 PM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Hi Bruno, yes, I have considered that. Having been on meds continuousy for about 6 years and having suffered the same extreme mental suffering you describe, I was able to come off them altogether by the combination of both vipassana and self-acceptance exercises. Previous attempts (at least 10) to come off meds resulted in excruciating physical and emotional pain, now this latest attempt has lasted about a month. Since stopping, there has been some flu-like aching in the joints which comes and goes a bit, a strong rearing up of anxiety (which I am treating with real-word solutions), but the most important thing is I'm off meds and can function. This has not been possible for 6 years previously.

The effects of the self-acceptance exercises are immediate for me (not sure about others). The immediacy of the feedback gives me a good indication that's it's doing what i want it to do. The after-effects last for an hour to maybe a day, and I need to keep at it each day till it finally 'sinks in'. But even if it doesn't sink in, the practice is easy enough to keep repeating. It did take a lot of 'digging in the dirt' to understand exactly what core beliefs needed changing, and it definitely works, but if you want proof I can't give you that. It is a form of self help, just like meditation....right?

The beneficial effects of the vipassana seemed to be much more related to the physical symptoms. It helped the over-heating, the heavy heavy limbs, the oversleeping/low energy. After practising, I'd get a bad reaction within hours (aching in my joints ++++ and an inability to stay warm no matter what I did), then within 1-2 days a lesser need for meds. I'd only need about 1/2 hour practice repeated a few times. I don't have good concentration, but it still worked.

So that's my story. I realise that what helped me may not be appropriate for others. I remember people used to tell me to exercise but whenever I did it, it would deplete my energy and make me feel worse. "But the research says it helps!!"...well it didn't help me.

I feel like the effects of the vipassana are very robust. But I feel like the effects of the self-acceptance work is what has the potential to cure me, if I can keep at it. It is more potent than meditation in its effect, but less robust (in that it wears off over time and needs repeating).

My take on modern psychiatry is that it continues to creep closer and closer to mindfulness meditation as the core treatment. I agree that psychiatrists and psychologists have very little idea of how the mind works compared to the likes of Daniel, yourself, Chuck, Trent, Adam, etc etc. But they do know about meds, and that is their strong suit.
Pavel _, modified 13 Years ago at 7/24/10 6:25 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/24/10 6:25 AM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 88 Join Date: 1/20/10 Recent Posts
Hey CCC,

well, speaking of vipassana in relation to your psychological and physical well-being is kind of strange in terms of the technique and its results not being designed to affect those things. Vipassana is a method of realizing the truth about the present moment and it depends on the practitioner wherever he/she decides to do something else with it. I fear that the main problem lies in people deciding to take up vipassana in order to resolve their shit (which also makes it difficult to progress in insight), they may feel that since their attempts in other areas have not helped much, that vipassana/enlightenment will magically cure them of their ailments. I had to very painfully investigate my hopes and desires in this area after I got third path, the fact that my much enhanced perceptual clarity, knowledge of moment-to-moment experience and the ability to see some fundamental features of experiential reality did not resolve my shit (actually, I was able to see some of my shit much more clearly) was painful to say the least.

So the problem does not lie with vipassana not delivering what it is not supposed to deliver, the problem lies with the practitioner (and the attitude, intentions and expectations). To be honest, having the gifts that practice gives (most clearly recognized when compared to experience preceding the attainment of a new path) and the resulting clarity, understanding and equanimity (also a growing ability to identify weak spots and a certain strength not to shy away) is a great help in resolving and working with all other problems. In another thread you mention that the practice of morality (which, by the way, in Buddhist terms is meant to mean the practice of living /including psychology/, rather than simply the practice of ethics) is unhelpful and yet it is work in this area that resolves such problems as the ones you mention here and elsewhere (unless they are of a fundamental nature in which case insight is the cure) - actually, the things that you mention here that helped you fall in that category (if the definition that I mention is applied).

So it is more to do with a practice that does not stop with vipassana, one that also includes a healthy attitude and helpful expectations. But the gifts that vipassana brings are vast and life-changing.

Another thing that should be kept in mind is that a lot of the problems that people on this forum go through are most certainly insight-based, in that some of the stages that a meditator goes through have a very intense psychological impact. In these cases vipassana really is the cure. Perhaps you have not experienced a Dark Night, in which case it is only right that you decide to treat yourself with other means, whereas myself and other people here have been unfortunate enough to live in its shadow for long periods of time, vipassana being the only method known to us (having tried other means) to move forward. The difficulty here is to recognize the difference between Dark Night symptoms and personality flaws/psychological difficulties/bad attitude/unhelpful expectations/... They both have a different treatment and yet vipassana helps with the latter in that whoever has the clarity and equanimity won though practice will be able to use those in other areas of life.

It has been mentioned many times before that it is possible to be enlightened and an asshole so it is up to us to try to do better. I believe that treating a Dark Night with vipassana is one of the most responsible things that a human being can do (as it benefits everyone).

I am very happy that you are feeling better and that you are finding ways to help yourself. Perhaps it is time to address why you feel the need to attack/confront insight meditation (and its practitioners) on an insight forum. Perhaps it is time to investigate why it is that you preach what you do. - are you doing this for the benefit of us all? - are you taking responsibility for your actions, in the knowledge that what you say is helpful to others and true to the best of your ability to discern?

Truly and only all the best to you.
This Good Self, modified 13 Years ago at 7/25/10 1:30 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/25/10 1:30 AM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Pavel, the only guiding philosophy I adhere to strongly is "what works" (as opposed to "what should work" and "what sounds intelligent and logical", both of which may not actually work in the real world). I have seen the "what should work" thing fail so many times in a range of real life scenarios (business, relationships), both in my own actions and those of others I have observed. For me the bottom line is "did you get what you wanted?", because if you didn't, then the technique or approach is wrong, or your application of it was wrong, (and that includes things like lack of persistence).

So if someone is using the same approach over and over and is getting nowhere, despite tweaking the technique and despite good teachers and advice, maybe the approach is totally wrong for the problem. What I'm saying is that if vipassana doesn't cure your 'dark night', then throw away that technique. If it does cure it, well fine, I have no argument. I felt like this particular case needed a different approach.

You're right about me often having a confrontational attitude in here, and I often finish posts thinking "there was a bit of venom in that.....what motivates me to speak that way?". Once all the layers of feel-good ego-defense excuses are peeled away, the answer to this question is: I still don't have quite enough self-acceptance. I need still more - that's the core of it. If you could see where I have come from to where I am now, big changes have happened. But I don't like pulling punches - if I feel pissed off, that's the way I'm going to write. So when you see me posting in a different, more pleasant style, you'll know I've changed - it won't be fake.
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triple think, modified 13 Years ago at 7/25/10 4:13 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/25/10 4:12 AM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
In my experience also the tai chi and similar movement practices are very beneficial and complement other practices very well.

Using the methodology common here over the last few years I have reflected back from an early path fruition at fourteen to a fairly clear sense of when the A/P most likely first showed up for me at twelve. The dark night cycles of the next path after the fruition hit me in my mid teens and often was considerably worse than the dark night cycles before that fruition.

From the present day perspective, thirty years later, if I could travel back to give myself advice on how to proceed at this point to handle the anxiety, restlessness, frustration and depression that I experienced; I would suggest making a strong goal of becoming intimately involved with discovering and investigating equanimity. I think becoming intimate with equanimity in a very deep way is the only real and somewhat profound relief that to an extent compares with the level of relief which are available as ultimate goals of the entire process.

I would suggest using two approaches to equanimity. One is the brahmavihara meditations, which help both with relating with the external world and other people in a more healthy and wholesome way and with coming to ever greater understanding of joy, kindness, compassion and equanimity as active energies and attitudes. I also suggest concentration practice or jhana of one kind or another to steady and calm the mind in ever greater peace.

As you spend some regular daily time with these practices, during those times where maintaining these themes is difficult, you will find plenty of opportunity for continuing vipassana. As I see it vipassana is more or less a matter of keen discernment which is something that can always be practiced and fits together very well with these kinds of meditations.

may you soon know well how to be well and at ease within and without
may all beings come to know the greatest possible peace and wellbeing
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 13 Years ago at 8/6/10 2:47 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/6/10 2:47 PM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
In answer to the question at the beginning of this thread, namely is it possible for a 6 year old to cross the A&P and hit the Dark Night, the answer is a definite yes. Young kids can get into all sorts of stuff. I have been lucid dreaming since at least 5 that I can recall and possibly before that. I have a very strong memory of what I know know to be the 4th samatha jhana attained when I was 3 (this known by the house I was living in at the time), which I wouldn't re-attain with that level of clarity for over 20 years.

Punjaji, aka "The Buddha of Lucknow", says he got enlightened at age 7 and had no idea that he had done anything interesting or that it was different from what others had experienced until later when he began talking to people and realized that something in the way he understood reality was very different.

Lots of other people have had strong meditation experiences at early ages, so this is not as strange or as uncommon as it would seem.
Eduardo Crespo, modified 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 9:42 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 9:42 AM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 8 Join Date: 7/20/10 Recent Posts
Thank you everyone for your input. I apologize for the long time I took to answer. I had to be away from home for a bit of the summer. I noticed many people mentioned retreats. I'm about to begin my senior year so I don't know if I could even have time for a retreat and I am under 18 so I don't know how that would sit with my parents. I live in the South Florida area just in case any of you know of any good centers around here. When I note what I do is I just become repeatedly aware of the sensation then it begins to speed up then it ceases. When it ceases its hard for me to note and I get lost. Sometimes I get the sensation of shaking from side to side and it diminishes. I get it sometimes as I'm falling asleep or one time really bad as I was doing acupuncture. It's very hard for me to note using words and labeling because I kind of stumble and go too slow. What must I do? I'm getting very tired of living like this. If any of you are up for a private conversation just let me know. I'd be perfectly willing to if I have the time.
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Michael D Kaup, modified 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 1:22 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 1:22 PM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 9 Join Date: 7/13/10 Recent Posts
Eduardo,
How are you holding up? Is living through your Dark Night leading to behavior destructive to your well being? I'm sure that your experience is highly unpleasant to say the least, so I ask, Can you, within your current circumstances take up a path such as this? If you see and feel that, yes you can endure it; yes, you have a great desire to see the true nature of this experience; and that yes, you strongly wish for liberation, then it certainly looks like this practice may be the vehicle to take you there. Keep practicing!

However if this all feels insurmountable, if you are harming yourself mentally or physically, please seek an immediate remedy from a professional. Consider this a bandage to stop the bleeding. It will be of some immediate relief, though there will still be a wound. A wound which the dharma will heal.

Understand that if you decide psychological help will aid you, it may be of incredible help. At the same time, that help will probably be somewhat reductionistic in its understanding, and not understand your dealing of the dark night and insights. But because that help doesn't understand EVERYTHING about your experience doesn't mean it won't be helpful in bringing you to a place where you really CAN practice this path.

Remember that Vipassina, the entire Buddhadharma, is about Liberation, Freedom. That freedom does not mean that you are somehow separate from this world, from feelings, from the pleasant and the painful. Liberation is being free within the stuff of this world, feelings, pleasant and painful experiences. If you're seeing into the nature of impermanence, and non-self, the insight that negative feelings are impermanent, that negative feelings are without-self, without intrinsic existence should also arise. If you are clinging, grasping at your negative experiences, and relating to them as a sense of self, you will have a difficult time indeed.

Peace,

Michael
Eduardo Crespo, modified 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 9:20 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 9:20 PM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 8 Join Date: 7/20/10 Recent Posts
Thank you Michael for your reply. Yes I am getting professional help... I have for years. The thing is I am sick of these experiences without even knowing why I have them. The countless professionals I have been to don't even know exactly why I am feeling this way. I do want to follow the path. I just don't know exactly what to do.
Pavel _, modified 13 Years ago at 8/23/10 5:52 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/23/10 5:52 AM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 88 Join Date: 1/20/10 Recent Posts
Hey Eduardo,

While you can most definitely do this (as in, start an insight practice and get enlightened) alone, there are times and issues, not to mention the difficulties of starting a practice, that would be greatly helped by having an instructor or a teacher. Insight is a tough path to walk alone.

The ones I am aware of who are first and foremost great and kind people, as well as enlightened and kick-ass teachers, are to be found here:

Alan Chapman Open Enlightenment
Kenneth Folk and his Dharma
Shinzen Young with his Website

Have a look around their sites and see whether you like what they have to say, like what and how they teach and then perhaps try to get in contact with them. This is by no means a requisite to strong and successful practice but it may help get things going and keeping them on track.

All the best and may you find what you are looking for.

Pavel
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S Pro, modified 13 Years ago at 8/23/10 2:53 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/23/10 2:53 PM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 86 Join Date: 2/7/10 Recent Posts
Eduardo Crespo:
Thank you Michael for your reply. Yes I am getting professional help... I have for years. The thing is I am sick of these experiences without even knowing why I have them. The countless professionals I have been to don't even know exactly why I am feeling this way. I do want to follow the path. I just don't know exactly what to do.


Hi Eduardo


I´m sorry to hear that you obviously feel like crap.Or even worse. I assume that seeking help from psychologists/psychiatrists is obviously not helping to much. I´m not saying to stop seeing them or to quit medication as all help one can get is worth a try.
Maybe you should take some radical measures and go on a long term retreat?
What is your suffering now can be the great catalyst towards enlightenment and change. The Christian tradition is very much based on it and the surrender to the suffering.
For short term relief maybe try out yoga, just to have a strong physical dimension to base upon.
I really hope you follow meditation practice.
Take care
Sven
Eduardo Crespo, modified 13 Years ago at 8/23/10 7:54 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/23/10 7:54 PM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 8 Join Date: 7/20/10 Recent Posts
Alright I got in contact with Daniel Ingram and I'm going to see what I can do. How many of you actually got to enlightenment?
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S Pro, modified 13 Years ago at 8/24/10 9:27 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/24/10 9:27 AM

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Posts: 86 Join Date: 2/7/10 Recent Posts
I haven´t although I assume that I had small glimpses. That is open to speculation!
You asked a good question!
Sven

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