Explain the Bahiya sutta

Edward Prunesquallor, modified 6 Years ago at 8/4/17 2:04 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/4/17 1:54 AM

Explain the Bahiya sutta

Posts: 55 Join Date: 10/11/14 Recent Posts
Can someone who has attained path explain the Buddha's instructions here?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html

"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."[2]


From what I understand, he recommends witnessing thoughts, the seen, felt, heard, without identifying oneself with what the body experiences or the thoughts that go on. This would make his instructions similar to Advaita.
neko, modified 6 Years ago at 8/4/17 5:13 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/4/17 5:08 AM

RE: Explain the Bahiya sutta

Posts: 762 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
You can see this sutta as an attainment or territory, pointing-out instruction, and a practice.

The person who wrote this sutta is explaining how (one specific form of) dukkha arises from additional processing that is superimposed on raw perceptions, and emphasising the fact that this processing is, again, additional, and superimposed on raw perceptions. This is the pointing out side of it.

As a practice, you are being instructed to try to see things for what they are. As you do that, you will notice layers upon layers of interactions, entangling, and fermentation arising from elaboration of percepts above and beyond what they are in themselves. There are tens of sides to this.

One possible progression (the territory) is:

1) Nanas 1-3 (mind & body, cause & effect, the three characteristics) are pretty useful from this point of view and give some beginning insights into this phenomena, on the macroscopic level.

2) After this, you should be able to start to see all percepts in their arising and vanishing as individual, separate events. This sets the stage for a more detailed analysis of what the single events are in themselves (step 3 below) and what the interaction between them is (step 5 below). This is the mesoscopic level.

3) As your skills improve, you should be able to break down further what the seen / heard / cognized is into its microscopic components around nana 11 (equanimity).

5) Then you might be able to see the 12 nidanas of dependent origination in action moment-by-moment, and see the process of micro -> solidification -> identification -> clinging -> dukkha unfold in real time. This combines the micro-, meso- and macroscales into one coherent "view" of the process.

Step (5) is likely to happen after Stream Entry, in my experience, so Stream Entry might be step (4) in this scale. As in, in SE something happens that has to do with seeing directly one or more aspects of DO in real time, but it takes some time to "integrate" this understanding in your practice and everyday life. So DO is a form of deepening and integration of SE, in my experience, which is a first actual glimpse of DO.

Beginning to realise all of the above as a form of nondualism is a possible next step, so you could call this (6) in this scale.

These insights might happen in a different order, and you will likely go back and forth between them, so it does not make too much sense to number them, as the progress might not be strictly 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6, although this is traditional, at least in the subprogression 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4. It gets fuzzier after that. Also, there are certainly other steps and practices which might be worth including as additional intermediate or alternative steps. But I find this roughly descriptive of a typical practitioner who does stuff MCTB-style.

_____

Edits: sorry.
neko, modified 6 Years ago at 8/4/17 5:22 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/4/17 5:22 AM

RE: Explain the Bahiya sutta

Posts: 762 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
Edward Prunesquallor:

he recommends witnessing thoughts, the seen, felt, heard, without identifying oneself with what the body experiences or the thoughts that go on.

A word of caution: Trying to do this this way might be misleading and a dead end, depending on how exactly you understand these words. You run the risk of creating aversion to identification, which is very much what you do not want to do, as it is adding an additional level of clinging and aversion to experience. As in something like:

Micro -> solidification -> identification -> clinging -> dukkha -> rationalisation -> denial -> intellectual fermentation

you will be clouding things instead of seeing things for what they are.

Some teachers describe advaita as "identification does not happen anymore". Other teachers describe it as "identification keeps happening all the time, but you see it for what it is, and you do not take it seriously". Others yet as "you can take both views, and you do not prefer one to the other". Either way, your task right now is to see the process for what it is, rather than suppress it from happening. Because you cannot really suppress it. You will just be convincing yourself that it is not happening anymore, making practice that much more difficult.
Edward Prunesquallor, modified 6 Years ago at 8/5/17 1:00 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/5/17 1:00 AM

RE: Explain the Bahiya sutta

Posts: 55 Join Date: 10/11/14 Recent Posts
Thanks for the explanation and the warning, Neko. I can see how one could cloud awareness by trying to trying to detach oneself from perceptions.

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