AF, 3rd Gear and Insight: PCE Mode, Non-Duality and Cycling Mode

Yair Hilu, modified 10 Years ago.

AF, 3rd Gear and Insight: PCE Mode, Non-Duality and Cycling Mode

Posts: 6 Join Date: 6/5/10 Recent Posts
Yair Hilu:
Isn't PCE mode and Kenneth' 3rd Gear are the same?


Trent:
If there are specifics points you are wondering about, you are of course welcome to start a new thread about those.


First I want to say that this seem to be a heated subject, maybe little personal for some, and that it is not my intention to push it more. I just want to understand what you guys (here on this forum and also Kenneth) are saying.

So, this is how It look to me. First I have read Daniel's book, where he write in some length about what Aharatship actually means and what it isn't. He also says, to put it in my words, that Buddhahood as a higher distinct level might actually exist but he doesn't sure.

After that I read Kenneth website and found the discussion about Non-duality (which I understand to be, in his use of the term, to be something that leave the cycled out). There is Non-duality and there is aharatship. He says that one can attain each without the other or have them two, which is the best. that was big news for me. Kenneth says that Advaita, Zen, Mahamudra and Dzogchen are Non-duality practices, and that Vipassana is development practice. Daniel says in his book that Dzogchen is insight practice, and that there are insight practices in Zen.

Kenneth says that he archived aharatship and then discovered Non-duality, which is supreme.
(after writing his book) Daniel says that he archived aharatship and then discovered PCE, which is supreme.

A question to "AF advocates" (sorry for such crude lumping) : If PCE is something else then non-duality, what do you think about Kenneth Ideas?

Cheers
thumbnail
Daniel M. Ingram, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: AF, 3rd Gear and Insight: PCE Mode, Non-Duality and Cycling Mode

Posts: 3168 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Kenneth and I have talked long about topics such as that, and it has been debated over at KFD.

If you want to see the very best they were able to do on the topic, the maximum clarity, precision and intelligence they were able to bring to this, not that it is of any great value in sorting anything out at all, and in general is mostly untested opinion, dogmatic contraction, emotional reaction, territoriality, and the like, try here: http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/4034050/%22Actual+Freedom%22+within+a+larger+context

It should be noted that no people who had attained to full AF are on that discussion thread, and when Trent tried to log in to post there he was banned, which is ironic, given his relevance to the topic.

I don't think that Third Gear and AF are talking about the same thing, but that is just one more opinion of many.

Daniel
thumbnail
Florian Weps, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: AF, 3rd Gear and Insight: PCE Mode, Non-Duality and Cycling Mode

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Hi Daniel,

In that thread over at KFDh, you mentioned a recording... how is that coming along?

Also, I found that thread very useful exactly because it highlighted those things you mention.

Currently, I'm not bothered by any great need to fit the PCE into some Grand Unified Model, not the least because I haven't investigated it at all, though I'm certainly interested in thoughs offered by you and Kenneth, and Tarin, and Trent and all the others who have something to say about it.

I think the morality aspect of this discussion deserves looking into, as well. Some really strange hopes and personal expectations seem to be at stake here (I know because I discovered some in myself last year), and I for one don't see many of them clearly at all, they only surface momentarily in odd, cryptic remarks. The bizarre misunderstanding between Chris and myself in that thread may serve as an example of what I mean here.

Also, the plainly religious tendencies - "my worldview revolving around this method/goal vs. that other worldview revolving around yonder method/goal" - keep rearing their grotesque heads in these discussions, mainly among those who have little to say about the other side from personal experience. I'm not sure at all how to put that into perspective, whether to view it as growing pains or as the beginning of something just as bad as mushroom culture. "Religion is powerful stuff, and it does funny things to those who use it" (to quote the british novelist Richard Morgan).

All of a sudden the old texts about ugly fights between the various ancient contemplative traditions seem eerily relevant. You know, the ones about exploding heads and people vomiting hot blood. emoticon

Cheers,
Florian
thumbnail
Bruno Loff, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: AF, 3rd Gear and Insight: PCE Mode, Non-Duality and Cycling Mode

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Daniel:
and in general is mostly untested opinion, dogmatic contraction, emotional reaction, territoriality, and the like


Yes, a shame wasn't it?

1. I don't think that things such as emotional reactions and territoriality need to be as confusing and distorting as they where in that particular discussion. If Kenneth feels that KFD wasn't the right place to have such a discussion, we could have had it here instead. The issue is then that people from KFD, who are the people with whom such a discussion might prove useful since they are the most advanced on the 3-gears practice, these people would likely feel much more at ease to simply ignore or give up the whole discussion.

And I personally would like for people from both "fronts" would stop the silly arguing and be clear about what is what. From the 3-gears front, I would appreciate more intelectual honesty and less "i'm human you're not" sort of speech, which is just plain silly and pointless. From the AF front, I would appreciate less self-righteousness --- the whole world-saving crusade aspect, the "turn on the news, see the violence around you, and decide to eliminate your affections" thing seems silly to me, and I much prefer Daniel's "I'm doing this because I judge it is the best for me" kind of attitude.

2. Overall, I think everyone would benefit from getting a clear mental picture of what is a PCE, and what is its relationship to the various aspects of Kenneth's 3 gears (and other things such as concentration). This isn't going to happen through emotionally-charged taunts or by proclaiming that "emotions are bad."

3. For me personally the idea of permanently loosing my affection towards others, of no longer being able to synchronize my own mental state with someone else's (due to having erased some of the software), the thought that I could no longer directly feel what a piece of music is intended to provoke, they all give out a feeling of sadness. And the fact that such feeling of sadness would simply not be there during a PCE for me just means that PCE is a very self-consistent, self-justifying state, but it certainly doesn't imply that it is a way I want to go.

Although I recognize there are a lot of things happening on the emotional level which are simply lame and anti-fun. E.g. a high propensity towards feeling attacked or humiliated, even when there was no intention of doing so, silly meaningless sadnesses that don't allow me to enjoy happy occasions, etc. So I do see, in what Tarin and Trent say, that an AF condition would sometimes be advantageous (I mean beyond the fact that it is apparently a wonderful way of experiencing the world), as my own emotional interpretation would stop distorting stuff.

However I also find advantages to the possibilities of the "being" mechanism. First of all the sense-distortion provided by affections gives rise to interesting and varied experiences, such as ecstasy, aesthetics, visualization. And furthermore, everyone around carries this mechanism, and there are interesting ways of interacting with others which depend on it.

Of course, there is a nice way of experiencing the world, namely the PCE, which depends on the feeling-thing being absent.

4. And thus, from my point of view, the ideal situation would be the ability to access any mode of experiencing I decide, for as long as I decide, rather than choosing one specific mode and sticking with that. Maybe that is unrealistic, but why should it be impossible? Apparently one can have a PCE and then get out of it, so why should it be impossible to practice doing it at a whim?

Daniel I guess that's why I was pressuring you to find out if you could turn PCE on and off at will. Of course that was foolish, and I should know better than trying to get my own answers from other people's practice.
thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: AF, 3rd Gear and Insight: PCE Mode, Non-Duality and Cycling Mode

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Bruno Loff:


And I personally would like for people from both "fronts" would stop the silly arguing and be clear about what is what.


i cannot speak for others, but as i am the primary (based on the volume of posting) proponent of an actual freedom from the human condition on this forum, you may be referring, in part, to me here. if so, would you please inform me where i am engaging in silly arguing, and where i have not been clear about what is what? i would genuinely like to take it from there.

Bruno Loff:

From the 3-gears front, I would appreciate more intelectual honesty and less "i'm human you're not" sort of speech, which is just plain silly and pointless. From the AF front, I would appreciate less self-righteousness --- the whole world-saving crusade aspect, the "turn on the news, see the violence around you, and decide to eliminate your affections" thing seems silly to me, (...)


does the staggering amount of human-on-human violence in the world, which can easily be ascertained by reading or watching the news, seem equally worthy of dismissal?

Bruno Loff:

(...) and I much prefer Daniel's "I'm doing this because I judge it is the best for me" kind of attitude.


ok... but regardless of how much you prefer Daniel's "I'm doing this because I judge it is the best for me" kind of attitude, it stands that one can, in addition to adopting that attitude, also sensibly judge that a world free of stress, fear, and violence is clearly best for me (and, for that matter, everyone else).


Bruno Loff:

2. Overall, I think everyone would benefit from getting a clear mental picture of what is a PCE, and what is its relationship to the various aspects of Kenneth's 3 gears (and other things such as concentration). This isn't going to happen through emotionally-charged taunts or by proclaiming that "emotions are bad."


as i have read this forum thoroughly and not come across a single place where a credible proponent of actual freedom has proclaimed that 'emotions are bad', i would like to ask you what you are referring to?


Bruno Loff:

3. For me personally the idea of permanently loosing my affection towards others, of no longer being able to synchronize my own mental state with someone else's (due to having erased some of the software), the thought that I could no longer directly feel what a piece of music is intended to provoke, they all give out a feeling of sadness.


just out of curiosity.. does the thought that you, and everyone you know, will one day die, and that everything you've ever experienced and everything they've ever experienced (including every every piece of music ever written) will one day vanish and be completely forgotten, also give you a feel of sadness?

i cannot be more sincere than i am in asking this.


*

Bruno Loff:

Although I recognize there are a lot of things happening on the emotional level which are simply lame and anti-fun. E.g. a high propensity towards feeling attacked or humiliated, even when there was no intention of doing so, silly meaningless sadnesses that don't allow me to enjoy happy occasions, etc. So I do see, in what Tarin and Trent say, that an AF condition would sometimes be advantageous (I mean beyond the fact that it is apparently a wonderful way of experiencing the world), as my own emotional interpretation would stop distorting stuff.

However I also find advantages to the possibilities of the "being" mechanism. First of all the sense-distortion provided by affections gives rise to interesting and varied experiences, such as ecstasy, aesthetics, visualization. And furthermore, everyone around carries this mechanism, and there are interesting ways of interacting with others which depend on it.


would you give me some examples of those interesting ways of interacting with others which depend on 'being'?


Bruno Loff:

4. And thus, from my point of view, the ideal situation would be the ability to access any mode of experiencing I decide, for as long as I decide, rather than choosing one specific mode and sticking with that. Maybe that is unrealistic, but why should it be impossible? Apparently one can have a PCE and then get out of it, so why should it be impossible to practice doing it at a whim?


as achieving an actual freedom for oneself is, according to almost all sentiments i have heard expressed (as well as my own sentiments at some point in the past), entirely 'unrealistic', and yet, as i have actually accomplished this, then i can personally vouch that what feels 'unrealistic' is not necessarily impossible.

tarin
thumbnail
Bruno Loff, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: AF, 3rd Gear and Insight: PCE Mode, Non-Duality and Cycling Mode

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Tarin:

i cannot speak for others, but as i am the primary (based on the volume of posting) proponent of an actual freedom from the human condition on this forum, you may be referring, in part, to me here. if so, would you please inform me where i am engaging in silly arguing, and where i have not been clear about what is what? i would genuinely like to take it from there.


Of course Tarin, I'm sorry, you haven't engaged in silly arguing at all in regards to this discussion. Quite the opposite, you have been very helpful and informative all the way. In fact the whole discussion in KFD was mostly an emotional response to things that AF people write all around, and, if we look at it carefully, there are hardly any posts by AF practitioners at all. Which makes that discussion all the more silly, in retrospect, and Daniel's sarcasm is well deserved.

Have you noticed that sometimes emotions distort good judgement? emoticon

Tarin:

does the staggering amount of human-on-human violence in the world, which can easily be ascertained by reading or watching the news, seem equally worthy of dismissal?


No. Does that somehow follow from what I wrote? I think not. My point is that the fact that human suffering and violence comes to an end if we get rid of passions, doesn't imply that everybody doing so is necessarily good. E.g., if we all kill ourselves, or live in isolation, rather than "self immolate," human-on-human violence would come to an end also.

Tarin:

ok... but regardless of how much you prefer Daniel's "I'm doing this because I judge it is the best for me" kind of attitude, it stands that one can, in addition to adopting that attitude, also sensibly judge that a world free of stress, fear, and violence is clearly best for me


Yes, one can do that. But one can also sensibly judge that this isn't the case, as I presently do for myself, because apparently it would be a world also free of nurture, beauty, ecstasy, .... (1)

Tarin:

(and, for that matter, everyone else).


But who are you to judge what is best for anyone else? Also, how thorough and systematic have you been in exploring other possibilities? What claims can you make beyond "I've done the best I could for myself"? No, I much prefer the attitude which I have (I believe correctly) attributed to Daniel.

Tarin:

as i have read this forum thoroughly and not come across a single place where a credible proponent of actual freedom has proclaimed that 'emotions are bad', i would like to ask you what you are referring to?


I'm referring to the recurrent idea that emotions need to be destroyed in order to be happy and free, and thus, grossly speaking, "bad" for people who do meditation to be happy and free, that's why I used the word "bad". Is that clear? E.g., in this thread you write that you are happy "by having decided to be happy (and then letting the leaves fall accordingly)," by which of course you mean ending being. In this thread, Trent describes free will as, basically, the AF condition ("having no interference at all by anything that is not actually me as I am-- a flesh and blood body. Which is to say: blind nature's instinctual survival package, and all else that had been piled on top of it (...) is no longer a factor.").

Lots of people before have claimed to be happy and free, without getting rid of affection. I suspect you are no more correct than they, and I've decided to investigate it the best I can.

Tarin:

just out of curiosity.. does the thought that you, and everyone you know, will one day die, and that everything you've ever experienced and everything they've ever experienced (including every every piece of music ever written) will one day vanish and be completely forgotten, also give you a feel of sadness?

i cannot be more sincere than i am in asking this.


Yes, sometimes. I used to get really really sad about that --- my first dark night was focused around the impermanence aspect, I could hardly stop talking about death, it bothered me beyond measure. Then I got used to it, and now its OK. Tarin I do believe in your sincerity, and good intentions, any particular reason you are emphasizing this aspect of sadness, or your own sincerity?

Tarin:

would you give me some examples of those interesting ways of interacting with others which depend on 'being'?


I'm sure you could if you tried. Some things related to feelings (nurture, elation, erotism); the variety offered by the persona construct (which albeit having awful results when taken too seriously, can be tremendously fun at other times); empathy or synchronization between two minds (either both or none must have feelings for this to happen); synchronizing the mood of people in a party to the beat of music; listening to an album with a friend, and sharing the feel of it...

Tarin:

as achieving an actual freedom for oneself is, according to almost all sentiments i have heard expressed (as well as my own sentiments at some point in the past), entirely 'unrealistic', and yet, as i have actually accomplished this, then i can personally vouch that what feels 'unrealistic' is not necessarily impossible.


I'm keeping my fingers crossed emoticon There are meditative stabilizations other than Actual Freedom. E.g. "samadhi" as it is used by B. Allan Wallace in "The attention revolution," "the way the realised mind stays" in mahamudra, etc. I'm gonna try and look there first.

Bruno

(1) Of course, unless you just mean a world free of stress, fear, and violence but having nurture, beauty, ecstasy, etc, then I would presently agree. But since this is not the AF condition, I'm assuming you refer to what you actually know how to get, rather than something else. Also, many buddhist meditators I know about are mostly free of stress and fear, and completely free from violence, and not just the "actually free" ones.
thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: AF, 3rd Gear and Insight: PCE Mode, Non-Duality and Cycling Mode

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Bruno Loff:
Tarin:

i cannot speak for others, but as i am the primary (based on the volume of posting) proponent of an actual freedom from the human condition on this forum, you may be referring, in part, to me here. if so, would you please inform me where i am engaging in silly arguing, and where i have not been clear about what is what? i would genuinely like to take it from there.


Of course Tarin, I'm sorry, you haven't engaged in silly arguing at all in regards to this discussion. Quite the opposite, you have been very helpful and informative all the way. In fact the whole discussion in KFD was mostly an emotional response to things that AF people write all around, and, if we look at it carefully, there are hardly any posts by AF practitioners at all. Which makes that discussion all the more silly, in retrospect, and Daniel's sarcasm is well deserved.


ah, ok.. would you then please be more specific about who you are referring to, on what you apprise to be 'the AF front', as having engaged in silly arguing and having been unclear about what is what?

Bruno Loff:

Have you noticed that sometimes emotions distort good judgement? 


yes.

have you also noticed how, in being prone to emotion, it is difficult to really tell when an emotion is currently distorting good judgement?

*

Bruno Loff:
Tarin:

does the staggering amount of human-on-human violence in the world, which can easily be ascertained by reading or watching the news, seem equally worthy of dismissal?


No. Does that somehow follow from what I wrote? I think not. My point is that the fact that human suffering and violence comes to an end if we get rid of passions, doesn't imply that everybody doing so is necessarily good. E.g., if we all kill ourselves, or live in isolation, rather than "self immolate," human-on-human violence would come to an end also.


even if it were possible to convince all the world's population to commit suicide, and though such worldwide suicide would end all the wars, rapes, murders, genocides, abuses, domestic violence, grief, despair, and suicides which rage across the planet as i write these very words and also as you read them, it would still not bring about a peace-on-earth that is conscious, that is sensate, that is palpable... that can be experienced and enjoyed for what it is... because there would not be anyone alive to experience and enjoy it. surely, the absence of fear, malice, and sorrow, worry, grief, and ill-will, from the lives of every man and woman alive on earth would be a better way to bring about a global peace-on-earth than would a global suicide.. and surely it would also be more likely to happen (particularly if each one were to aim at bringing it about for oneself)?

and even if it were possible to convince all the world's population to isolate themselves from one another, and though such isolation, were it even possible in this day and age, would necessarily entail the end of wars, rapes, murders, genocides, abuses, and incidents of domestic violence (as no one would encounter anyone else in order to perpetrate these things), there would still be, among other things, suicide, grief, and despair to account for and contend with... and anyone who knows the depths of grief and despair knows that they are truly miserable conditions. further, were global isolation to last for even one generation, it would result in a global peace-on-earth with no one around to enjoy it.. the same situation as above.

do these examples you gave really make sense to you? if they do, how is it that you value your and your fellow human beings' happiness so little?

if they do not... can you offer any other, more sensible, alternatives?

*

Bruno Loff:
Tarin:

ok... but regardless of how much you prefer Daniel's "I'm doing this because I judge it is the best for me" kind of attitude, it stands that one can, in addition to adopting that attitude, also sensibly judge that a world free of stress, fear, and violence is clearly best for me


Yes, one can do that. But one can also sensibly judge that this isn't the case, as I presently do for myself, because apparently it would be a world also free of nurture, beauty, ecstasy, .... (1)

(...)

(1) Of course, unless you just mean a world free of stress, fear, and violence but having nurture, beauty, ecstasy, etc, then I would presently agree. But since this is not the AF condition, I'm assuming you refer to what you actually know how to get, rather than something else.


the world i am referring to is full of conditions of which nurture, beauty, and ecstasy are affective imitations, and for which these imitations are blindly and repeatedly elicited (and clung to) in a futile and never-ending attempt to finally achieve. these conditions are, correspondingly, actual caring, innocent wonder, and the orgiastic joy of being apperceptively alive and all that it entails.

as i have seen, for myself, how (the mechanisms of) the desires and passions you mention operate, and subsequently, as their goals have been fulfilled (and they/'i' have gone extinct accordingly), then what appetite would i have left for them?

indeed, what appetite would anyone have, would that he see what appetite truly is?


Bruno Loff:
Tarin:

(...) (and, for that matter, everyone else).


But who are you to judge what is best for anyone else?


the same person who judges that it is best for other people to, generally speaking, eat when hungry, sleep when tired, take medicine when sick, and die when it is time; the same person that judges that it is best for other people to not, generally speaking, engage in wars, rapes, murders, genocides, abuses, domestic violence, grief, despair, and suicide. i am, essentially, the same person judging that it is best for others to see that they can live in a world free of stress, fear, and violence... and to bring it about for themselves.

Bruno Loff:

Also, how thorough and systematic have you been in exploring other possibilities? What claims can you make beyond "I've done the best I could for myself"?


i got 4th path, all the traditional jhanic attainments, and nirodha samapatti. i explored non-duality as far as i could find it go (before it would be the absolute only). i re-visited my advaitic past. i dipped into the akashic records more times than i can remember. i attempted time travel (hi!). i explored simultaneous manifestation/bilocation. is that enough for you?

Bruno Loff:

No, I much prefer the attitude which I have (I believe correctly) attributed to Daniel.


daniel is a diplomatic pragmatist who i think may sometimes underestimate the potential of his fellow human beings to fully understand what makes them tick (to understand their own desires).

*

Bruno Loff:
Tarin:

as i have read this forum thoroughly and not come across a single place where a credible proponent of actual freedom has proclaimed that 'emotions are bad', i would like to ask you what you are referring to?


I'm referring to the recurrent idea that emotions need to be destroyed in order to be happy and free, and thus, grossly speaking, "bad" for people who do meditation to be happy and free, that's why I used the word "bad". Is that clear?


no. while it follows that 'emotions need to be destroyed (torn down; broken up; done away with; rendered useless or ineffective) in order to be happy and free' of stress and fear entirely, what makes you think that determining that emotions are 'bad' will lead to this destruction ... and again, where have you actually seen this advocated by a credible proponent of actual freedom?

Bruno Loff:

E.g., in this thread you write that you are happy "by having decided to be happy (and then letting the leaves fall accordingly)," by which of course you mean ending being.


searching the thread you linked to, i did not find that passage, but searching the entire discussion archive, it appeared here. as what i wrote ('simple - by having decided to be happy (and then letting the leaves fall accordingly).') was in direct reply to your questions raised immediately above ('how are you able to feel interest for anything without desire?! You seem to retain curiosity, but how? You seem to be happy, but how?'), then how is this relevant to your claim that proponents of actual freedom '[proclaim] that “emotions are bad”'?

Bruno Loff:

Lots of people before have claimed to be happy and free, without getting rid of affection. I suspect you are no more correct than they, and I've decided to investigate it the best I can.


what are you here referring to, about which i am not 'more correct than they'?

if i may suggest, it may be interesting to - as part of your investigation - investigate whether any of those other people you mention who have claimed to be happy and free and affective are entirely free of stress and fear.

*

Bruno Loff:
Tarin:

just out of curiosity.. does the thought that you, and everyone you know, will one day die, and that everything you've ever experienced and everything they've ever experienced (including every every piece of music ever written) will one day vanish and be completely forgotten, also give you a feel of sadness?

i cannot be more sincere than i am in asking this.



Yes, sometimes. I used to get really really sad about that --- my first dark night was focused around the impermanence aspect, I could hardly stop talking about death, it bothered me beyond measure. Then I got used to it, and now its OK. Tarin I do believe in your sincerity, and good intentions, any particular reason you are emphasizing this aspect of sadness, (...)


yes, in order to highlight the role that loss plays in the experience of sadness.. and to point out that, in being sad, you are still afraid of loss (and, ultimately, of dying).

Bruno Loff:

(...) or your own sincerity?


so as to make it clear that i was not asking this question trivially or facetiously, nor did i mean it as a rhetorical platitude, as is so often the case when people discuss the profundity of death without realising its actual implications (including the implications regarding their awareness, or Awareness).

*

Bruno Loff:
Tarin:

would you give me some examples of those interesting ways of interacting with others which depend on 'being'?


I'm sure you could if you tried. Some things related to feelings (nurture, elation, erotism); the variety offered by the persona construct (which albeit having awful results when taken too seriously, can be tremendously fun at other times); empathy or synchronization between two minds (either both or none must have feelings for this to happen); synchronizing the mood of people in a party to the beat of music; listening to an album with a friend, and sharing the feel of it...


have you noticed that two of your three of your first examples of interesting ways of interacting with others which depend on 'being' necessarily involve power - either power over others (nurture), or others having power over you (sexual desire - erotism [sic])? and do yo understand how that the third example (the feeling of elation) does not reinforce 'being', even though it is experienced as/experienced by one?

by the way, i do not experience any desire to synchronise with another's mind... but neither do i feel dyssynchronised from it to begin with.

Bruno Loff:

There are meditative stabilizations other than Actual Freedom. E.g. "samadhi" as it is used by B. Allan Wallace in "The attention revolution," "the way the realised mind stays" in mahamudra, etc. I'm gonna try and look there first.


hmm.. how about 3rd gear?

*

Bruno Loff:

Also, many buddhist meditators I know about are mostly free of stress and fear, and completely free from violence, and not just the "actually free" ones.


ok... but do you know any buddhist meditators who are entirely free from stress and fear (as are those who are actually free)?

tarin
thumbnail
Nikolai S Halay, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: AF, 3rd Gear and Insight: PCE Mode, Non-Duality and Cycling Mode

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Tarin Said: i got 4th path, all the traditional jhanic attainments, and nirodha samapatti. i explored non-duality as far as i could find it go (before it would be the absolute only). i re-visited my advaitic past. i dipped into the akashic records more times than i can remember. i attempted time travel (hi!). i explored simultaneous manifestation/bilocation. is that enough for you?


Hi Tarin,

Would you be willing to give tips on accessing the akashic records, time travel and manifestation/bilocation? So as not to bean obstacle for others, you could PM me any tips. I would very Much appreciate any as I am attempting some things related without success.


Nick
thumbnail
Daniel M. Ingram, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: AF, 3rd Gear and Insight: PCE Mode, Non-Duality and Cycling Mode

Posts: 3168 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Concentrate your ass off and resolve with all definite and complete commitment to do what you wish to do. Pick a defined goal initially, whichever strikes your fancy at this time, whichever you think would be the biggest hoot.

Really strong kasina practice helps, such as candle flame practice as I describe it to the level I did it, or just every single sensation 360 degree full space insight practice every fraction of every second you are awake for a few days running should get you the horsepower to do basically any of that. Nirodha Samapatti, the real full-on deal, hit often also helps somehow with anything you wish to do. It should not be underestimated. Solid, hard jhana, jhana like a blazing and immutable glacier, like the steadiness space itself, that sort of jhana gives the mind a flexibility to do what it wants. Do the red or blue kasina until you can really see red or blue in the whole field and then everywhere even when you are looking at the world with your eyes open. This is the sort of concentration I am talking about. It may take a few days, but if you really give it your all without distractions, it should be there for you. Once you have seen that sort of flexibility and power, you will know what I am talking about. Visualization practice with mantra can also really kick this stuff off if you can get the images 3D, luminous, transparent and detailed, as well as seemingly alive and intelligent.

Read about the powers a lot: this is like tuning the radio. The section in the Visuddhimagga is good. Read The Fruits of the Homeless Life (DN 2). Read about astral projection: there everything is so workable that the limits are your own fears and the limits of your imagination and creativity, and sometimes not even those. Previous intentions, whims and resolutions combine to guide the thing when it happens, so don't shirk on those. Finally, really think about exactly what it is about all this stuff that draws you and keep digging into that, asking the question again and again and seeing what answers come up. I recommend getting down to the lowest common denominator of whatever is driving your interest in this stuff, as there is something there to get to know really well. Done well and with the blazing power of an unbridled and adventurous mind, there is much to see and learn, mostly about yourself, but also what is possible when the mind is brought to that level of power, and what these do and what they don't do, what they are and what they just aren't, as much as we wish they were.

I recommend this: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=385c6462-dbd0-4177-bdc1-a448a6e885e0&groupId=10128

When you get out, chase exactly and precisely whatever you want and see how it goes.

Let us know if you have questions. While often not talked about in any context, I still think this stuff is fun and worth exploring for a wide variety of reasons,

Daniel
thumbnail
Nikolai S Halay, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: AF, 3rd Gear and Insight: PCE Mode, Non-Duality and Cycling Mode

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Thanks Daniel. Great advice! Will keep you posted on the results.

Nick
ManZ A, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: AF, 3rd Gear and Insight: PCE Mode, Non-Duality and Cycling Mode

Posts: 105 Join Date: 1/12/10 Recent Posts
Just curious, but have you had a PCE before? I mean you could aim for a PCE first and see what that's like. Then you'd be better equipped to decide what would be the best course of action. After all, you don't get an AF from simply having one PCE (or I could be wrong idk). But without having experienced it how do you know it's not what you want or would be something undesirable?

Breadcrumb