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Possible 2P?
Answer
10/14/17 10:56 AM
Is it possible? I had assumed 1P ~ 5 weeks ago. Link:

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/6668994

1. No blip again. Hahaha
2. 1st 2P 'Fruition': 'Lost concentration', ultra clear image of a garden with flowers. A face becomes an eye-> Black (meaning I am aware of it) -> Bliss wave.
3.Repeated 2P 'fruitions': A face, an eye. Black. Bliss wave. -> Concentration loss is not always there.
4. Start of '1P-2P': A handful occasions where I had to build access concentration. 1 day of slight jaw ache; neck ache - had to tilt head to look sideways, went away after 3 days. Weak 1P fruitions then failed to attain them at all as they used to be bedtime activity, came along with worries
5. Nanas' stuff are completely different. There is a part which is quite irritating as it comes across as itch instead of pain. The speed of raptures and 'size of screen' have increased. It seems that the raptures go quite a bit off from my body's boundaries. I tried to focus on the sensations but heck they really do seem out of the body.
6. Increased samatha powers: post 2P 'fruitions', 1 in/out breath pops me right into jhana. And much greater imperturbability - permits small movements and looking around. Otherwise, 2-3 breaths does the job. Prior to this, jhana-entry takes minutes. Also there were a few days, post 1P that I cannot access them and gave up trying, switched to chakra exercises instead.
7. Thoughts: There are less thoughts, or perhaps the thought pathways are shorter, there is much less proliferation and I am absolutely aware of any thoughts that seem to come from the ego construct e.g. thoughts of things that will feed 'pride'. I also bother less of what others think of me, not sure if that is a good thing. Life seems simpler, calmer but no euphoria like 1P.
8. Interesting observations to flipping nanas that works: 1. Changing perspective to zoom into raptures from wide 'lens'; 2. move 'sight' upwards, over the head and then back-downwards, 3. Noting Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta (I got lazy and just used it 3-in-1)

Is it possible that fruitions/nanas change their presentation whilst in the same path, as it seems like this is pretty quick. I had to look back to 'discover' the 1st 2P 'fruition' and frankly I could only remember a slight wonder (mostly with the super-clear sunflowers) and went about my business, didn't think much of it, till practice keeps coming back to the same repeated conclusion.

RE: Possible 2P?
Answer
10/14/17 4:31 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Thanks Pawel! 

I do not have a teacher. Daniel's book, information on the Web and all of you here are my teachers. emoticon

I have investigated by entering a mindset of having zero attainments at this point and do not suffer from it - the insights and the suffering reductions are what matters most above all else. If sufferings can reduce if it means I am actually pre-path, I will actually be happier, albeit only slightly.

I do think that the information gleaned from asking will serve good purpose in education (not just mine but those who will pass through such points that I did, especially if it serves as warnings). emoticon

BTW, are these out of body sensations - illusions?

RE: Possible 2P?
Answer
10/15/17 7:08 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yilun Ong:
Is it possible? I had assumed 1P ~ 5 weeks ago.


Is it possible that fruitions/nanas change their presentation whilst in the same path, as it seems like this is pretty quick. I had to look back to 'discover' the 1st 2P 'fruition' and frankly I could only remember a slight wonder (mostly with the super-clear sunflowers) and went about my business, didn't think much of it, till practice keeps coming back to the same repeated conclusion.

Sure, it's possible that it's second, but most likely it is "Review" of first path. (Be sure to re-read that section of MCTB.) Yes, fruitions and nanas will change within the same path -- the path between 1st and 2nd is NOTORIOUS!! for so many changes that it is very confusing to map.

Basically after SE, there will be a period where sitting is very jhanic. You sit down and are almost instantly on A&P and it's possible to quickly move through territory and have a fruition or multiple fruition. This is especially true for meditators with stronger jhana skills and those on retreat or practicing a lot. Some "dry" meditators will have much less fireworks along these lines, but sits will feel juicy and pleasurable.

From MCTB: "In this stage, the meditator just keeps practicing largely as before. In
this way, they will learn to master the stages of insight, as they must pass
through them again each time they wish to re-attain Fruition. The first
few times through the cycle after the path has been obtained can
sometimes be quite intense and even very disturbing, as the mind tends
to be exceedingly powerful for a few days after a path has been gained
and yet is navigating in territory that is not yet mastered."

and

"That said, when a progress of insight is completed, one may notice
the mind simply not doing lots of useless things it used to do, and it may
seem impossible that it even was able to do them. However, it may take
some time to figure out what the permanent implications of the path are
and what is just a product of its lingering and transient afterglow. It is
likely to take quite a while to really integrate the understandings that
come from a path into one's way of being in the world."


It usually takes a few weeks for Review to settle down. Sometimes Review can get overwhelming and people want to slow down or stop for a while --- that's usually a >good< idea. It's a normal time for slowing down and integrating what has happened.

For the road to second path, the stages of progress are the same as before -- but many people have increased jhana skills, so the nanas become a blur of normal nanas and vipassina jhanas and jhanas. It can be very confusing to map (so my advice is don't try and just keep consistently practicing emoticon ). There can also be lots of "re-wiring" in the body and mind along with aches, bliss, discomfort, and fascination. 

So chances are it's not second path, but you are cranking along in Review, but either way, seems like very good practice.

Edit, adding on one more point: For second path, basically practicing the same way as before tends to work, but the goal is "trying to understand all the possible variations of every nana and to see them as mind states" a strong jhana person would have to add "and to really experience strong, clear jhanas". So pretty much the same as first path, but this time not getting confused by vipassina jhanas and, for jhana people, going deeply into jhanas.

Hope this helps!

RE: Possible 2P?
Answer
10/15/17 1:12 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
For some reason my instinct is to warn you that the experience of making progress is also a pretty strong trap.  Nothing is really happening or needing to happen, so holding a model in which some fixed entity is changing over time towards a "better" state is just another myth that eventually you will have to release.  The more your let yourself identify with the Yogi who is making progress, the harder that will be in the end.  

RE: Possible 2P?
Answer
10/15/17 11:32 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
[quote=Hope this helps!
]


Sincerest gratitude to all of you, Pawel, Seth & Shargrol! I will keep your skillful advices in mind and will use them to improve on improvable skills, understand the nanas which seem very malleable (they can even be altered/flipped by external sounds-which says much about them being mind states), however complex and erratic they seem, they are emptyish in nature; I will also lose complete identification with attainments as I have looked into it and it is much emptier than the nanas. For educational purpose, I think that this is most certainly not 2nd path but part of the confusing review stage.

And thanks for the Krishnamurti link Pawel, I will enjoy them! 

Much Metta from Thailand... emoticon

RE: Possible 2P?
Answer
10/15/17 11:35 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
[quote=Angra Mainyu

Daniel is great teacher and person. He and his site DhO helped me immeasurably]


Oh and yes thank you Dr. Daniel. You and this site have helped and will continue to help others and I, immeasurably. Please feel free to let me know if there are any things I can help with!

RE: Possible 2P?
Answer
10/16/17 8:02 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Angra Mainyu:
Yilun Ong:
I do not have a teacher. Daniel's book, information on the Web and all of you here are my teachers. emoticon

Daniel is great teacher and person. He and his site DhO helped me immeasurably

one of my 'teachers' is U.G. Krishnamurti
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG8ZZxL82Zo
this guy is completely hilarious and it was love from first sight
Bose–Einstein condensate is raging inferno compared to warmth of his personality ~_^
He is hilarious, especially his comments on the Buddha, Mother Theresa and Hitler... Totaly enjoyed it whilst in jhanic bliss, letting the milions of beings (which is me) do what they want to be happy. I hope this functional even-whilst-going-about-one's-day jhana capabilities don't go away! emoticon

RE: Possible 2P?
Answer
10/23/17 3:14 AM as a reply to shargrol.
Gee, that sits extremely comfortably with me as 22 months into this.......I'm still to close to the event (s) that where i am is mostly shown me by others
Many thanks......most insightful . ......stuie

RE: Possible 2P?
Answer
10/27/17 5:02 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Angra Mainyu:
here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx8f76kuGAY

guy at the end have pretty tangled up sense of self
at least had, because he got 'preview' right there so I guess he will calm down

That guy's look was priceless in a "I feel so sorry for him" way! That will win a best actor award for someone having pursued a dream over a lifetime and discovered a bubble... Makes me think how many actually have such realizations on their death bed. *Sadface*

An update to say the above was NOT 2P because I just had another fruition after a pretty nasty DN in terms of physical sensations, with 2 quickly repeatable fruitions and 1 full cycle (Kept my eyes semi-open in darkness, the greyscale holographic show caressing my face is out of this world!!! But I had to close my eyes for fruition to occur). Although it may smell more like 2P, it matters not - I still have no idea what is non-dual and the only change I can feel is greatly increased mirth. Especially with regards to where I am on attainments. It seems like the whole thing is a cruel joke, don't get me wrong but it is a very good thing, not that it came from path moment hahaha. I hope this will serve to light the path (in a funny way) for those in between 1-2P -> Here's something from MCTB that is particularly ticklish:

Buddhas are defined as having understood the teachings and the truth of things “to the very end,” whereas arahats have just fully understood these. The distinction here is lost on me.

I think "lost on me" resonated right through my funny bone... emoticon