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Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk

Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
10/29/17 9:33 PM
This is a good talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEBe7ZEfORc

It has more dharma in it than most dharma talks.  Right thought, speech, action & lifestyle are there.  There are a couple things that are missing: meditation training, pyschotherapy, bodywork.  But beyond that, it's a very thorough picture of the path.

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
10/30/17 10:55 AM as a reply to Noah D.
thanks for pointing out this common sense video.  i couldn't agree more with the message

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
10/31/17 10:09 AM as a reply to Noah D.
His most amazing accomplishment was finding a wife willing to go along with his minimalist lifestyle. 

Most of the luxury items guy buy -- the fancy car, the slick pad -- are really just status displays used to attract the opposite sex. 

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/1/17 9:33 AM as a reply to Jinxed P.
Jinxed P:
His most amazing accomplishment was finding a wife willing to go along with his minimalist lifestyle. 


how true.  i don't know many men who are much into luxury.

then again, he is a celebrity.  Donald Trump says being a celebrity expands his sexual posibilities.

Mr. Mustache does seem like a genuinely nice hard-working lovable guy.  that should count for something.

I get offended when people call the Buddha a dead-beat dad (I heard Ethan Nichtern use that term in Tricycle recently).  The Buddha left his entire palace and presumably his wealth to his family.  Even the term dead-beat is loaded.  

Personally, my wife also took a lot (previously our wealth that i had earned).  I have to work into my sixties or the family responsibility office will chase me down, i am threatened.  Planning a visectomy before this gets any worse.
  

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/2/17 3:09 PM as a reply to Jinxed P.
@ Jinxed / rednaxala - I hardly think women are the cause of our wasteful, consumerist society.  Assigning blame to either gender in particular is problematic, but traditionally speaking we have had a male dominated culture, and this has not entirely shifted today.    At any rate, MMM has been married to the same women the entire time of developing his philosophy.

If MMM is preaching the benefits of rational consumption and financial planning as a useful deviation from the norm, the main system he's pushing back against is the profit driven capatalist / corperate system which is the basic root of so many issues today.  And certainly the type of brainwashing that money driven status is needed to attract a mate is rooted here.

Certainly we need money, but the 99% means the vast majority is struggling.  There's plenty of women in this boat as well, and the clear mindedness and compassionate approach resulting from a sucessful dharama practice should be sufficient to help one successfully navigate social territory - I have read (studies) that altruism is the best predictor of success with the opposite sex.

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/2/17 4:25 PM as a reply to T DC.
@ T DC,

No one said women are the cause and sole blame of this consumerist society. It is true however, that women are more attracted to wealth and displays of high-status in a man than men are in women. There is lots of data on this.  Which is why finding a wife who finds your minimalist lifestyle attractive is easier said than done. 

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/2/17 6:17 PM as a reply to Jinxed P.
Jinxed - Well then let's see the data.  As it stands I think you're making blanket assumptions that are somewhat sexist.  Back to my comment about the 99%, maybe some guys think a nice car will get them lots of dates, but personally I am not convinced the real world opperates that way.  Maybe a certain subset of women consider wealth particularly attractive, just as a certain subset of men find the idea of being wealthy particularly attractive, but in this day and age of shifting gender roles and identities, the safe bet is that gender stereotypes are not set in stone.

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/2/17 8:34 PM as a reply to T DC.
T DC:
Jinxed - Well then let's see the data.  As it stands I think you're making blanket assumptions that are somewhat sexist.  Back to my comment about the 99%, maybe some guys think a nice car will get them lots of dates, but personally I am not convinced the real world opperates that way.  Maybe a certain subset of women consider wealth particularly attractive, just as a certain subset of men find the idea of being wealthy particularly attractive, but in this day and age of shifting gender roles and identities, the safe bet is that gender stereotypes are not set in stone.

Facts aren't sexist T DC. They are just facts.  Women are attracted to high-status males, for rather obvious evolutionary reasons, and this goes across the majority of mammalian species -- ever hear of the alpha male chimpanzee, the silverback gorilla, etc..this isn't just about size and strength, but access to resources, social influence, safety, etc. 

Here are some studies..

1. The Most Influential Predictor of Whether a Woman Orgasms During Sex is Her Partner's Income

2. Dr. Helen Fisher, a biological anthropologist at Rutgers University who has studied romantic love extensively, said studies have widely shown that women like men with resources: They have since the beginning of time because they need someone to help take care of their young.

3. High Status Men (But Not Women) Capture the Eye of the Beholder

4. It's official: A woman's beauty really IS the most important thing to a man - but for women, it's all about social status

"The findings are consistent with previous mate preference research conducted by Professor Li which found that men prioritise having moderate physical attractiveness, while women prioritise having moderate social status in a long-term mate.Mr Kenrick said professor of psychology in ASU's College of Liberal Arts and Sciences: 'The new study helps to dispel politically correct – but factually misguided – notions of a gender-neutral world where men and women want the exact same kind of mates.'  

5. for men there is no amount of income that the woman in the bottom ten percent in terms of appearance can earn to make men prefer her over women in the top 10 percent. That is, looks really matter to men relative to income. For women though, if the man in the bottom ten percent in terms of looks earns more than $248,500, they will prefer him over the more attractive guy earning $60,000. 

This study is fascinating, it shows that women prefer a guy who is a 2/10 on looks, but makes 248,000 a year over a guy who is a 9/10 in looks but makes 60,000 a year. 

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/3/17 8:00 AM as a reply to Jinxed P.
These are great, thanks Jinxed P.

I find this male/female teritory interesting.  Especially being surrounded by women all the time: with two sisters (no brothers), hanging with my grandma when she was alive, now living at my mom's house when i'm far too old for that (but which helps with my practice and which i'm enjoying-ha!).  And now with two young daughters who i naturally want to bring up in the best way possible--at least in the limited time i have with them.

I've always been kind of a relaxed beta guy, i suppose.  Especially in relationships.  And that seems to have been part of the problem--some younger good-looking meditation alpha dude screamed at my wife a few weeks after meeting her and stole my wife's heart away.  Divorce is funny: i'm still the provider; they're still taking about half my net pay.  But I feel like i'm no longer part of the family.

We could discuss why men live much shorter lives than women
.  Some say its caused by testosterone.  I think that's just covering it up with scientific speak: in the same way that dying in the WWII was postively related to testosterone.

Metta

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/3/17 1:56 PM as a reply to Jinxed P.
Ok Jinxed, you have some data points.  Maybe the better question is, what do you do with that information?  Seek to become wealthy to attract a mate in a materialistic pursuit of happiness?  Assume women are driven by superficial 'status symbols'?

The old saying that money can't buy happiness has found to be lacking - the new assumption is that money/ resources up to a certian degree clearly contribute to happiness.  We all want stability in our lives, and money today is the base resource that provides that, but beyond a certain level of material comfort, the obvious benefits of wealth trail off - more money does not mean more happiness.

I see the basic idea behind MMM as that wage slavery, or a 9-5, is not truly what most people (men and women) would like to be doing with their lives - and so he preaches a way out.  And as for women..

Call me an idealist, but I belive in love, and as this is a dharma forum, in the spotless Buddha nature of all beings.  I belive we're more than just the sum our parts, that life exists for reasons beyond the material - and this is more than belief, as a result of dharma practice I know this to be true.  As as follows from this I think the best way to treat people is without an assumption that they are innately corrupted somehow, which is really what I am reacting against in your posts. 

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/3/17 2:22 PM as a reply to T DC.
@ T DC,

It seems you are the one who thinks that a women's desire for high-status males makes them innately corrupted. I have made no such negative judgment on them for that. And I'm not sure what to do with that information. Perhaps find the diamond in the rough girl who is also into minimalism? I'm also a big fan of MMM. You are tilting at windmills. 

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/2/17 7:35 PM as a reply to Noah D.
Noah D:
This is a good talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEBe7ZEfORc

It has more dharma in it than most dharma talks.  Right thought, speech, action & lifestyle are there.  There are a couple things that are missing: meditation training, pyschotherapy, bodywork.  But beyond that, it's a very thorough picture of the path.


Enjoyed this talk, very well presented in a funny, authentic way.


RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/3/17 8:46 AM as a reply to Noah D.
@ OP, here's a sutta (AN 4.61) where the Buddha talks about Mustachianism.  This is unrelated to discussion in this thread about male/female, btw (not sure how we got there).  I would reccomend keeping historical context at the front of mind when reading these quotes & understanding how freaking radical these words are.

Again, with wealth acquired by energetic striving … righteously gained, the noble disciple makes provisions against the losses that might arise from fire, floods, kings, thieves, or displeasing heirs; he makes himself secure against them. This is the second case of wealth that has gone to good use … for a worthy cause.

(Mustachian value of frugality & stashing cash)

Here, householder, with wealth acquired by energetic striving … righteously gained, the noble disciple makes himself happy and pleased and properly maintains himself in happiness; he makes his parents happy and pleased and properly maintains them in happiness; he makes his wife and children, his slaves, workers, and servants happy and pleased and properly maintains them in happiness; he makes his friends and companions happy and pleased and properly maintains them in happiness. This is the first case of wealth that has gone to good use, that has been properly utilized and used for a worthy cause.

(Mustachian value of only ever spending money to maximize happiness)

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/3/17 12:03 PM as a reply to Noah D.
From what little I've read of the MMM blog, he still seems like a hedonist(albeit slightly more ethical.) that relies on certain things or circumstances to be happy. I don't believe improving your wordly situation is an aspect of the dharma at all. It's just something you do because you either starve and die if you don't.

What would happen to him if he became bankrupt and his wife was raped and murdered? He likely wouldn't be able to withstand it. He is simply propped up by good conditions, nothing more and nothing less.

Better to fortify your mind against everything, than 'gain' things that can slip out of your hands at any moment.

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/3/17 12:38 PM as a reply to D..
Is that what the Buddhadharma says!?  Woah I've been WAY misinterpreting.  Here I thought it was about gaining wisdom through observation of causality & then expressing that wisdom through thought, speech, action, lifestyle...

Sounds like I've got a lot to rethink here... 

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/3/17 1:07 PM as a reply to Noah D.
Noah D:
Is that what the Buddhadharma says!?  Woah I've been WAY misinterpreting.  Here I thought it was about gaining wisdom through observation of causality & then expressing that wisdom through thought, speech, action, lifestyle...

Sounds like I've got a lot to rethink here... 

If by 'that', you mean 'developing mental resiliency that doesn't depend on good conditions', then yes that is an objective of the Dharma.

Here's a line from the Dhammapada that illustrates this:

One is one's own refuge, what other refuge can there be?
With self well subdued, a man finds a refuge such as few can find.

Pleasure is nice, but all it does is make you weak and dependent on the conditions(i.e. money,friendship,women etc.) that create it. Pleasure is bondage, and restraint is freedom.

My capability to withstand difficult circumstances, and be a refuge unto myself, will not be tested if I create conditions where I do not have to face them.

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/3/17 1:56 PM as a reply to D..
I would say our points are complementary not contrasting.  

Good work, team. 

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/3/17 2:09 PM as a reply to D..
To me the core element of Mr. Money Mustache's argument is precisely that our happiness requires tackling adversity and working through our adversion and laziness.  Sure, he's got all the points about how even a frugal lifestyle can still be luxurious and whatnot, but that wouldn't work if he were clinging to those -- it would never be enough.  He also pretty frequently references Stoicism and Buddhism, and seems to be trying to live in a manner consistent with both.  Would he stay happy if he were kidnapped by an evil wizard and tortured 24/7?  Probably not, but I'm pretty sure that's the kind of model of enlightenment that doesn't stand up to reality.  Instead, he's basically arguing that seeing through craving in our lifestyles make us happier as a result, with some financial improvements as a nice side effect.

I think the following articles give a good sense of how he approaches this:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/07/07/necessity-is-the-mother-of-badassity/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/06/08/happiness-is-the-only-logical-pursuit/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/11/11/get-rich-with-the-position-of-strength/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/02/what-is-stoicism-and-how-can-it-turn-your-life-to-solid-gold/

I think there can be a lot of value in practice at looking at the need to get to a mentally bulletproof place.  The truth of our suffering brings us to meditate, since we can see that with our current attitude towards experience there's no material or social thing that can grant us lasting happiness.  But when you make some progress on the path and still feel an incredibly compulsive need to get all the way to the end so that we can finally find our fortress of not-suffering, that can be a sign that you're holding on really tightly to some aspects of your suffering and need to accept and welcome them in your practice.  There's also a kind of secret bargaining with the world -- I agree to give up all this stuff and in return someday no one will ever be able to hurt me again. I fall into that sort of thing all the time, and it's very understandable -- but the key is to fully embrace the suffering that motivates the need instead of trying to fulfill the need.

I read MMM a while ago, but I'm excited to go back now that I've been meditating for a while.  It's easy to get caught up in daily life and only focus on what we should be doing in meditation and addressing suffering as it comes up, but I think there are a lot of benefits to bringing our whole life into it.

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/3/17 4:08 PM as a reply to JP.
Hmm, those articles show MMM in a better light. My previous comments were a (mostly) incorrect judgement then.
But when you make some progress on the path and still feel an incredibly compulsive need to get all the way to the end so that we can finally find our fortress of not-suffering, that can be a sign that you're holding on really tightly to some aspects of your suffering and need to accept and welcome them in your practice.

There's also a kind of secret bargaining with the world -- I agree to give up all this stuff and in return someday no one will ever be able to hurt me again. I fall into that sort of thing all the time, and it's very understandable -- but the key is to fully embrace the suffering that motivates the need instead of trying to fulfill the need.
Those are some interesting observations, I actually didn't notice the 'bargaining' aspect of my worldview.

I don't necessarily care as much about attainment as much as I care about the tangible results I get from it. Even 4th Path woud turn out to be a worthless bauble,to me, if I couldn't become 'bulletproof' or something close to it.

My train of thought is this:

I just hate relying on things to be a certain way forever. So I may as well get used to not having them,so in the event that I do lose them the impact isn't too hard?


Have you also experienced that kind of thinking? It's how I've always lived my life, but it's quite a cowardly mindset when I put it into perspective I guess.

RE: Mr. Money Mustache Dharma Talk
Answer
11/3/17 5:40 PM as a reply to D..
You can't become bullet proof in a fixed or static sense.  But you can utilize knowledge of emptiness (aka "path shifts") to inform your mode of operating in the world, meaning decisions about behavior.  If you then *watch* closely the process of gaining skill & losing unskill, you can read between the lines & repeat the underlying source code of appropriate participation.  In other words, the same strategy doesn't always work, but the same meta-strategy does always work.  Plus, permanent perceptual shifts from meditation WILL make you less reactive & more peaceful as a nice byproduct to the knowledge gained.  

"Be like water" - Bruce Lee