Hi 


I am wondering if anyone else has ever had the experience of the experience of fruition/cessation changing over time?

I experienced my first cessation/fruition event about 2 years ago now. It was a brief, but there was a distinct loss of consciousness and any experiencing at all. It was only on coming out of it that the mind could look back and could see what happened. It had all the usual build up of stages preceding it and was followed by a bliss wave and clarity about nature of experience. This repeated many times over a 5-6 week period, so there was plenty of times to get a good look at it and gain confidence in what had happened. 

But they dried up at around 6 weeks later and didnt return for 8 more months. But this time the black out period was even briefer. But still it had the same entrance and exit and felt like a shift. It was also followed by a period of rapid cycling and repeat fruitions. 

Its now been about 16 months since any kind of black out type fruition has happend. Since then its felt like being in multiple cycles and at once. Its got vastly harder to determine where I am on the maps and I have even found myself loosing interest in this, as the cylces seem sort of blander...less wow. And where I think I am one week seems not much help.  

But my memory of frution, is rather wonderful. I would really like them to happen again....but it doesnt:-)

However, what often happens is that there is a working up the cycles to high equanimity a clear seeing of formations as before, except instead of a loss of consciousness, there is just a physical jolt of energy, a kind of stopping of experience, but not loss of awareness. This seems to mark a peak in a cycle, there is not really a bliss wave to speak of. Its almost like a faint echo of a fruition and cycle. 

So part of me is wondering if these are still frutions. They dont quite meet the loss of awareness aspect of the criteria, but have pretty much the same entrance and exit. 

Often repeating this a few times causes me to sink deeper into the formless spheres and the dukha of chasing cycles and frutions seems more obvious. These states often seem great at revealing insights around the nature of perception, of things and self. So it feels fruitful in that way. 

Anyway, I guess the upshot is...I have no idea where I am now on the maps. Frutions of the kind I had before seem to have disppeared and I am curious as to wether others have had this kind of expeirence. 

Thanks

Barry

I am currently experiencing the exact same phenomena as you and I have been dismissing these as 'near misses'. Would be wonderful if someone could point out if anything is preventing progress or simply more re-wiring/time is needed!

Thanks Yilung. Yes, I have wondered the same thing 'Near miss or just a change in nature of fruition experience'

I can see that which of these conclusions you come to is significant.  

I am certain that they aren't fruitions as I had both near misses and fruitions in the not-so-distant past. I tried going heroic but ended up with painful symptoms, so I am taking it easy for now. Perhaps there are things that we have not looked at thoroughly, you may want to check this to see if you are missing any: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3529941

I am trying the below and will update here if anything that could be helpful pops up!


For Stream-Enterers: A Different Way of Doing 2nd Path

i'm writing this for stream-enterers, to suggest an alternate way of
doing 2nd path; alternate, that is, to what daniel ingram writes about
in 'mastering the core teachings of the buddha'. keep in mind as you
read this that the evidence behind this suggestion is mostly based on
the experiences of one person, me. i should also point out that in no
way am i knocking what worked so well for me for getting 1st path. i
would probably still be wandering around aimlessly, alternating
between getting oddly neurotic about my crap and spacing out into
equanimity and the formless strata, if it weren't for daniel, his
book, mahasi, and the maps. however, my rapid success at finishing 2nd
path makes me think this is worth putting out there because the method
i employed was so markedly different from how daniel portrays 2nd path
practice that i think other people should know about this alternative
as a possibility.

daniel recommends doing 2nd path like he recommends doing 1st path:
note note note, rise through the cycles, let it sync up, pop a
fruition. i did not do this. in fact, although i'd already dropped
into the next mind-and-body, i thought it might be better to not start
another path so soon and made no effort to cross the a&p. i went about
my daily life, making little or no time for formal practice, and
electing instead to, purely out of curiosity and fascination, watch
inclusively and in particular to see through the sensations that make
up the notions of 'inclusive', 'watching', and 'centre' whenever it
occurred to me to do so, or whenever it just happened on its own
(which, upon reflection, happened pretty often). the times i noticed
the cycles at all, i noticed them in a very basic and uninterested
way, made no effort to investigate them or the sensations that make
them up, and only recognised when i'd broken into a new stage after a
day or two had already passed. in retrospect, the a&p was inspiring
and energised, the dark night sucked, and equanimity was equanimity..
but i wouldn't have been able to tell you that while it was going on
(except by two days into the dark night, i knew it sucked).

here is the suggestion:
if, in working on 2nd path, you find yourself scrambling up the
insight ladder just because you think you're supposed to, but are not
sure why you're doing this, it might work for you to focus on seeing
the quality of the sensations here and now in an open and inclusive
way, keeping a clear eye on the so-called background to see if
anything's moving around back here. ignore everything that is not
obviously the clear and direct answer of paying attention here and
now.

it didn't occur to me, for the most part, to try to move from one
stage to another, but while i was in the dark night, i got concerned
about making progress for a day or two. but when it occurred to me
that i was only doing that because of pain and worry, i resolved to
stop running away and promptly did. if you tune your eye in to the
here and now, all that stuff will just rush by like water going down
the drain. just keep re-tuning your eye to this, knowing that none of
it is the solution. scary, mildly yet deeply painful, but try to run
this process in the back of your mind again and again while you're
going about your day. that's all i did, and less than a week after
crossing the new a&p, i got a fruition that left the background
shattered thoroughly and in an entirely new way. i had no idea i was
that close. it took a few hours to be sure i'd really finished the
path (but that still beat the few days it took to be sure about the
first one), and when i'd answered that question to my own
satisfaction, the certainty did not come from having had another
fruition, but from the clear difference in my baseline (read: right
now) perception and the diminished level of solidity in it.

so, once again:

see the sensations here and now in an open and inclusive way, paying
careful attention to the totality of experience as well as what seems
to be 'outside' that totality. don't get caught up about what things
mean and if you do, don't give a shit that you're caught up cos you're
not really, you just think you are. just keep paying attention in such
a way that nothing will take it away. the cycles may, and probably
will, happen, but ignore them and basically just practise as if you're
already in equanimity regardless of what shows up.

you don't have to wait until going for 3rd path to do this if it makes
sense to you to do this here and now.

tarin greco (theprisonergreco)

Thanks for posting...will check this out. 

Hi Barry,

I am another one experiencing something which feels very similar. A few weeks ago, I intended to not experience fruition so as to practice remaining in equanimity for extended periods, and since found myself experiencing a series of fruition-like events every few days (a week or so) while meditating (usually 1 hour a day at the moment). I will get concentrated, quiet mind, succesful in mindful noting, then slip into dreaminess and then a moment like a blackout where I feel my head/body fall (like a complete "let go"), a feeling of lights out, gone for a milisecond but no afterglow, no soothing rush of peaceful vibrations like I experience after a more "normal" cessation event. So i keep medidating, still in the equaminity mindset, and then another of these half-cessation like events, and again, another. I might have 5-15 of these in one sit. Sometimes it ends in a sit with the feeling/thought that "that was the last one", other times, they go on till the end of the sit (the bell!), either way, i do not get a sense that i am pushed back down the POI cycle (as i often noted happening after a cessation) or that i loose my concentration in that sit. For the next few days though, my medidation is quite unremarkable, difficult concentration, sluggish noting, until finally, I get concentrated and my mind is again calm, and chances are these events happen again...and around it goes...

So yeah, i've been wondering, as well, are these fruitions? what is actually happening? Have i managed to keep myself in equanimity at those times? Will I experience "deeper" fruitions again? I'm looking forward to a week retreat in a nearby monastery this winter to have a better look inside.

Sorry, no real answers for you. I am also hoping someone with more experience with this will come by and share their wisdom.

Best wishes. 

Hi Ben

Thanks for responding. 

What your describing does sound very similar. Like you, I can identify that the experience is not like a full blown clear fruition. But at the same time has a lot in common with it.  They seem to have the same entrance and exit as a standard fruition, but just lack the loss of consciousness.

I have wondered if they are an 'echo' of the earlier path cycle. As to me they seem faint, less clear like an old cycle and feel like something familiar rather than new. Not representing a clear new cycle or path. 

Just thoughts, 

Barry