Anna's Fire Kasina Practice Log - Discussion
Sounds cool 
A weekend with long sits is a good opportunity to get some insight with this as well.
You can find the three characteristics in these visuals and the different nanas too. I bet it is easy to see doing longer sessions.
Keep up
A weekend with long sits is a good opportunity to get some insight with this as well.
You can find the three characteristics in these visuals and the different nanas too. I bet it is easy to see doing longer sessions.
Keep up
streamsurfer:
Sounds cool
A weekend with long sits is a good opportunity to get some insight with this as well.
You can find the three characteristics in these visuals and the different nanas too. I bet it is easy to see doing longer sessions.
Keep up
A weekend with long sits is a good opportunity to get some insight with this as well.
You can find the three characteristics in these visuals and the different nanas too. I bet it is easy to see doing longer sessions.
Keep up
Thanks, do you do this practice too?
My last few sits have been different - the nimitta is faded and less stable. Colours are not vivid. More discursive thought arises. The initial tendency is to feel disappointment and cling to memories of my “best sits”, but I’m being stoic and reminding myself to work with whatever arises! Haha
Yes, at the moment I do fire kasina as well. Can use the focus for my exams preparation. 
Being stoic is a good approach, you can't escape the impermanence doing kasina. But the more consistent the practice, the better your meditation, the clearer your perception, and finally it's really likely for insights to arise.
Being stoic is a good approach, you can't escape the impermanence doing kasina. But the more consistent the practice, the better your meditation, the clearer your perception, and finally it's really likely for insights to arise.
Stuie Charles Law:
Could I just check please..... Your practice is 20 to 30 minutes per day, yes.......
Could I be so forward as to ask how many total hours of cushion time you have, hi please?
I would like to immerse myself in kasina practice and perhaps you might assist an old man with your fresh approach
Is there a way to obtain these skills without putting in the hours of cushion time that our beloved leader Daniel and company speak of in the their writings.....
Thanking you in anticipation.
Could I be so forward as to ask how many total hours of cushion time you have, hi please?
I would like to immerse myself in kasina practice and perhaps you might assist an old man with your fresh approach
Is there a way to obtain these skills without putting in the hours of cushion time that our beloved leader Daniel and company speak of in the their writings.....
Thanking you in anticipation.
In terms of total cushion hours, that is hard to say. Since 2011, maybe 1000 hours of formal sitting concentration practice (tm and fire Kasina). That’s a very rough guess based on 20 mins per day. I’ve also been practicing yoga asana for at least a few hours per week since 2009 (so maybe 2000 hours). I count that as concentration practice too. Since 2013/14 I’ve been doing “during the day” mindfulness and noting, and spending a lot of time doing self-inquiry and reading meditation literature.
In truth, I went into meditation practice with zero expectations (I had no idea what it was; I thought it was just “relaxation”) and I think this helped because it allowed me to practice without any pressure or expectation of results.
Even if you do not see a nimitta, I reckon you will still get the “off the cushion” benefits of fire Kasina! It’s my favourite practice for creating a tranquility that permeates your daily life. Don’t get hung up on what other people see (visuals might be my strength, but I have plenty of weaknesses too) and just maintain sincerity and curiosity for practice and enjoy it! It’s never too late to start
streamsurfer:
Yes, at the moment I do fire kasina as well. Can use the focus for my exams preparation.
Being stoic is a good approach, you can't escape the impermanence doing kasina. But the more consistent the practice, the better your meditation, the clearer your perception, and finally it's really likely for insights to arise.
Being stoic is a good approach, you can't escape the impermanence doing kasina. But the more consistent the practice, the better your meditation, the clearer your perception, and finally it's really likely for insights to arise.
States are transient but there’s some nice stable trait changes that seem to accompany this practice (better concentration, improved visual perceptual acuity, feeling more alert and less tired during the day).
Anna L:
streamsurfer:
Yes, at the moment I do fire kasina as well. Can use the focus for my exams preparation.
Being stoic is a good approach, you can't escape the impermanence doing kasina. But the more consistent the practice, the better your meditation, the clearer your perception, and finally it's really likely for insights to arise.
Being stoic is a good approach, you can't escape the impermanence doing kasina. But the more consistent the practice, the better your meditation, the clearer your perception, and finally it's really likely for insights to arise.
States are transient but there’s some nice stable trait changes that seem to accompany this practice (better concentration, improved visual perceptual acuity, feeling more alert and less tired during the day).
I like the solidity of concentration, too. Normally before rough exams I am near a mental freak out, and my normally healthy life style almost vanishes 
With two rounds of fire kasina I am definitively more relaxed and just do what is to be done. It does wonder for mental sanity in my experience.
Hi Bruno, I’ve not practiced fire Kasina for 2 weeks now! Argh! My excuse is that I’ve been doing a lot of asana ( 6 hours per week) and guided meditations for a Culadasa course I’m doing. The Culadasa meditations are looking at the qualities of attention and awareness, and while useful, do not get me into deep concentration like Kasina. I’m on vacation now until early March so will pick up a candle and get back into it this week. Thanks for writing, it keeps me motivated to get back into it. I’m missing the tranquility and the vivid dreams
Hi Linda
What you describe sounds like progress to me! The "screen" we refer to in fire kasina is the "mind screen" or space of consciousness that we see with our eyes closed. Although initially we may be quick to say that this is just a simple black screen, once we pay careful attention we notice that it is actually a highly detailed and interesting space made up of tiny vibratory pixels and different colours. From what you have described it sounds like you have already noticed this. A useful analogy is to think of this space as a cave. If you look into a cave from the outside, all you can see is a wall of darkness. However, once you enter the cave and your eyes become accustomed to the darkness, then you begin to see things. Swami Saraswati writes: "The cave that seemed to be full of blackness before is seen to contain many more things, even things which you did not expect to see."
As fire kasina practice progresses, there are qualitative changes in the phenomenology/appearance of the mind screen depending on what stage of the practice we are at. Daniel has referred to these as different "screens." There is an excellent glossary here: https://firekasina.org/glossary/
You are correct when you say that the objects that appear on the screen during practice are not objects that we "visualise" in the sense of "imagining" them in our mind's eye. They appear by themselves (and are often quite surprising in their content!).
You write:
"if I hear a sound I often immediately see images together with mental kinesthetic and chemical sensory input. That’s new. I didn’t do that before. And sometimes when I hear a sound or when a thought pops up, I can se a simple abstract pattern or a dot or collection of dots lighting up on the black screen. They have a different quality compared to the purple swirls, but sometimes also the purple swirls get this kind of quality now. I have been able to increase the brightness and form of them on one or maybe a couple of occasions."
I get this too I notice that sensory input (e.g. a sound) and emotional feelings (e.g. a feeling of love) are reflected in visual changes on the mind screen. It's a really cool and interesting effect.
It sounds like you are a natural at this practice
What you describe sounds like progress to me! The "screen" we refer to in fire kasina is the "mind screen" or space of consciousness that we see with our eyes closed. Although initially we may be quick to say that this is just a simple black screen, once we pay careful attention we notice that it is actually a highly detailed and interesting space made up of tiny vibratory pixels and different colours. From what you have described it sounds like you have already noticed this. A useful analogy is to think of this space as a cave. If you look into a cave from the outside, all you can see is a wall of darkness. However, once you enter the cave and your eyes become accustomed to the darkness, then you begin to see things. Swami Saraswati writes: "The cave that seemed to be full of blackness before is seen to contain many more things, even things which you did not expect to see."
As fire kasina practice progresses, there are qualitative changes in the phenomenology/appearance of the mind screen depending on what stage of the practice we are at. Daniel has referred to these as different "screens." There is an excellent glossary here: https://firekasina.org/glossary/
You are correct when you say that the objects that appear on the screen during practice are not objects that we "visualise" in the sense of "imagining" them in our mind's eye. They appear by themselves (and are often quite surprising in their content!).
You write:
"if I hear a sound I often immediately see images together with mental kinesthetic and chemical sensory input. That’s new. I didn’t do that before. And sometimes when I hear a sound or when a thought pops up, I can se a simple abstract pattern or a dot or collection of dots lighting up on the black screen. They have a different quality compared to the purple swirls, but sometimes also the purple swirls get this kind of quality now. I have been able to increase the brightness and form of them on one or maybe a couple of occasions."
I get this too
I notice that sensory input (e.g. a sound) and emotional feelings (e.g. a feeling of love) are reflected in visual changes on the mind screen. It's a really cool and interesting effect. It sounds like you are a natural at this practice
Nice anatta observation. Yeah, it's really easy to hear the words "things are where they are, as they are" and "in the seen, only the seen" and hear it as a normal "this seeing that over there from here". But the extra effort of maintaining over here and over there is... extra.
But many many times throughout the day -- maybe 10,000 times -- everyone will have experiences without a coordinate system... but we rarely recognize them. Usually it's only during sports, or sex, or eating, or meditation that the kind of no-coordinate system experience is noticed. But it's really just a matter of walking around and noticing how experience happens (and this is why walking meditation is as valuable as sitting meditation).
Once this starts becoming obvious, how many experiences happen without a coordinate system, then you can bring back even the coordinate system. A big spiritual mistake is to assume that anything that creates a sense of duality is wrong. But this is a very simplistic and ignorant view that can trap people. It's important to see that there is nothing wrong with having coordinates, but.... the assumption that there is a solid thing at the center of the coordinates that needs protecting, well that's the original ignorance, the origin of suffering. There is nothing solid at the center. And when you go to "look" for the solid thing, you've created a another coordinate system, which is fine, but there is nothing at the center of the new coordinate system that is trying to look at the center of the old coordinate system.
Noticing how the assumed coordinate system's center keeps moving can be another great meditation, sitting or walking. And you can key into how effortless life is when the coordinate system is allowed to go where it wants.
The assumption of self and the paranoia of needing to protect the self sort of lean against each other and if either are seen clearly for what it is, the whole thing collapses (the ridgepole breaks), the knot unties...
The main challenge is that when the sense of something solid in the center starts to weaken... a very subtle and primal fear will arise. Definitely. It's the fear of anniliation, death of the self. The practice will seem a bit wrong and dangerous. (Which is yet another experience with a coordinate system that has nothing at the center of the coordinates.) The main role of a teacher/mentor/guru at this stage is to help someone stay in this uncomfortable zone using various practices, but make sure they are challenging themselves and really feeling this very very subtle discomfort. (And to warn them about the killer cows, a very important part of the sutta ) And it's not like a meditator really needs to be forced or pushed by the teacher at this point, it's more like a non-verbal communication that it's okay to do practices that seem a bit wrong and dangerous, yet we are really really interested in where it seems to be leading.
“Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.”
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Ud/ud1_10.html
But many many times throughout the day -- maybe 10,000 times -- everyone will have experiences without a coordinate system... but we rarely recognize them. Usually it's only during sports, or sex, or eating, or meditation that the kind of no-coordinate system experience is noticed. But it's really just a matter of walking around and noticing how experience happens (and this is why walking meditation is as valuable as sitting meditation).
Once this starts becoming obvious, how many experiences happen without a coordinate system, then you can bring back even the coordinate system. A big spiritual mistake is to assume that anything that creates a sense of duality is wrong. But this is a very simplistic and ignorant view that can trap people. It's important to see that there is nothing wrong with having coordinates, but.... the assumption that there is a solid thing at the center of the coordinates that needs protecting, well that's the original ignorance, the origin of suffering. There is nothing solid at the center. And when you go to "look" for the solid thing, you've created a another coordinate system, which is fine, but there is nothing at the center of the new coordinate system that is trying to look at the center of the old coordinate system.
Noticing how the assumed coordinate system's center keeps moving can be another great meditation, sitting or walking. And you can key into how effortless life is when the coordinate system is allowed to go where it wants.
The assumption of self and the paranoia of needing to protect the self sort of lean against each other and if either are seen clearly for what it is, the whole thing collapses (the ridgepole breaks), the knot unties...
The main challenge is that when the sense of something solid in the center starts to weaken... a very subtle and primal fear will arise. Definitely. It's the fear of anniliation, death of the self. The practice will seem a bit wrong and dangerous. (Which is yet another experience with a coordinate system that has nothing at the center of the coordinates.) The main role of a teacher/mentor/guru at this stage is to help someone stay in this uncomfortable zone using various practices, but make sure they are challenging themselves and really feeling this very very subtle discomfort. (And to warn them about the killer cows, a very important part of the sutta
) And it's not like a meditator really needs to be forced or pushed by the teacher at this point, it's more like a non-verbal communication that it's okay to do practices that seem a bit wrong and dangerous, yet we are really really interested in where it seems to be leading.“Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.”
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Ud/ud1_10.html
Shargrol, thank you for this response. I’ve been re-reading it and trying to digest it.
One thing that stands out - the fear and paranoia that comes with protecting the ego. Investigating closely the thoughts / emotions / sensations that accompany this.
Also, interesting that you note that some practices can feel “wrong” or “dangerous”. I’ve noticed this reaction from several people when I’ve suggested trying fire Kasina practice. It can bring out a strong aversion reaction in some - usually related to a fear of going insane! If anything, I’ve found the opposite with this practice - the calming effect of the Jhanas counteracts any potential destabilisation that might occur from unusual visuals or powerful insights. But it’s an interesting thought for me to explore - I’m sure I experience a subtle resistance to all practices - that slight aversion to just sitting and being that we all(?) have on some level. It’s worth investigating further.
Thank you!
One thing that stands out - the fear and paranoia that comes with protecting the ego. Investigating closely the thoughts / emotions / sensations that accompany this.
Also, interesting that you note that some practices can feel “wrong” or “dangerous”. I’ve noticed this reaction from several people when I’ve suggested trying fire Kasina practice. It can bring out a strong aversion reaction in some - usually related to a fear of going insane! If anything, I’ve found the opposite with this practice - the calming effect of the Jhanas counteracts any potential destabilisation that might occur from unusual visuals or powerful insights. But it’s an interesting thought for me to explore - I’m sure I experience a subtle resistance to all practices - that slight aversion to just sitting and being that we all(?) have on some level. It’s worth investigating further.
Thank you!
You are definitely welcome and definitely thank you for putting up with my big blocks of text on your practice log!
Your comments are so helpful ... otherwise I am (literally and figuratively) often just sitting in the dark here! 
Anna L:
Your comments are so helpful ... otherwise I am (literally and figuratively) often just sitting in the dark here!
Well, I'm sure your sitting in the dark is leading you somewhere. Practice has a way of leading onward, it's almost unescapable. But if you ever feel a bit lost or if practice seems uninspired, definitely say something and maybe I can say something.
Anna L:
Dileep:
Hello Anna,
Do you pratice Candle Kasina in a dark room or in a lit room? Which do you think is better?
I practice Candle Kasina in dark room for the reason that the candle light looks pleasing to eyes.
~~- stare at candle flame for approx 1-3 mins (access concentration seems to correspond with seeing the blue interior of the flame; once this happens I know I am concentrated enough to blow out the candle)
In the above quoted line,are you referring to the blue part of the flame at the base of the flame over which we can see the golden part of the flame?Also, I used to close my eyes without blowing out the candle. Should I blow out the candle before closing my eyes?
Regards.
Do you pratice Candle Kasina in a dark room or in a lit room? Which do you think is better?
I practice Candle Kasina in dark room for the reason that the candle light looks pleasing to eyes.
~~- stare at candle flame for approx 1-3 mins (access concentration seems to correspond with seeing the blue interior of the flame; once this happens I know I am concentrated enough to blow out the candle)
In the above quoted line,are you referring to the blue part of the flame at the base of the flame over which we can see the golden part of the flame?Also, I used to close my eyes without blowing out the candle. Should I blow out the candle before closing my eyes?
Regards.
Hey Dileep,
I practice at night time in a completely dark room (lights off) as I currently like to do this practice before bed as it's very relaxing for me and that's also the time when my mind is settled without distractions or interruptions from daily life. I have practiced before in the day time with blinds closed, or sitting in a cupboard! This works well too.
Yep, I am referring to the blue part of the flame at the base. I find that when I really get absorped, this part of the candle becomes very prominent to me. It almost seems to "lock into" my attention. That's when I know I am quite concentrated.
I blow out the candle before closing my eyes just so I don't have any other light source in the room that might distract me from the nimitta. I also sometimes open my eyes during the meditation to experiment with seeing the nimitta with open eyes and I thought the flame might be distracting. It would be interesting to keep the flame going and to keep periodically re-focusing on the flame to deepen and build concentration - I might try that in a future sit.
Last night's sit was the same sequence and I repeated it three times. i.e. candle gazed, got to the "murk" and then started over again from the beginning. There were no major changes except that early on in the third attempt there was new granular detail in the nimitta (brown squiggly lines). Frustration arises because no matter how hard I try, I can't see this granular squiggly moving detail in any more clarity in order to describe it better. It is so small. I wish I could magnify the image of the nimitta in my mind in order to see it in more detail.
Last night's sit was not one of my better sits. I think this was for two reasons: 1. I was really tired. 2. The candle I have been using (a scented one that someone gave me) does not have a stable flame - it wavers a lot. I am going to go back to my preferred candle which is an IKEA brand tealight! It has a really still flame.
I'll sit again tonight and update this tomorrow. I hope your practice is going well! Even if you don't get the lights yet, I think just focusing on the candle is so beneficial and calming for the mind and really helps to build concentration. Speak soon
Ok
at last some info that's hands on, I have IKEA candles so I'm good to go Evening suits me perfectly when my son is sleeping (quiet in the household).
So, arms length between me and candle, stare into the center of flame until some distortion appears or blue light shows up in the center of candle then switch off candle (fire safety) and close eyelids but keep them relaxed. Observe what unfolds.
Intention at start and the end. Cool. Got it. Thank you.
p.s. will go through your journal when I have time and see your experience.