Hi there!

Newcomer to the DhO, stumbled over it while scouring the web looking for advice on "what to do next." Found the maps and dark night posts here incredibly encouraging but still am unsure as to where exactly I am.

My short history: came into contact with meditation six years ago at a 10-day Goenka retreat. Went exactly by the book as far as the experiences I had and what the discourses mentioned - up until the 7th day, I think. That day I experienced what seemed to be A&P: subtle vibrations all over the body, complete dissolution and zero pain, rapture, bliss and whatnot. Although I felt the attachment and craving building up, I was unable to deal with them, most likely since I didn't really have a firm grasp of the three characteristics. The next day, it was all gone. Only pain, gross sensations and blind spots all over.... Sounds familiar?

Coming out of the retreat, I was determined to keep practicing. After a couple of months of that same experience, however, I gave up. Six years went by and I decided it was time to give it another try. Same retreat, yet this time was completely different. The first four days I could not develop concentration for the life of me. The experience was different from the first time (mind wandering thinking about past, future, etc. and then bringing it back) - this time the attention seemed to be jumping all over, often into thoughts/visions bordering on dream-like/hallucination experiences, and immediately back to the breath, in a split-second. It was happening so fast that by the time I noticed losing the breath the mind was already back on it! At other times I was feeling incredibly sleepy and the mind was dull. The assistant teacher's advice: keep going.

When we moved into body-scanning things did get a little better, concentration-wise. The sensations were somewhat similar to what I was feeling the end of the first retreat, only this time I felt better equipped to dealing with them (i.e. calmer and more equanimous, better understanding of impermanence). That was pretty much my experience for the rest of the retreat.

It has now been a month and little has changed. The sensations are still mostly gross; a body scan easily takes 40-50 minutes; and while I'm ok with that most of the time, sometimes the hindrances rear their ugly head and I get sleepy/dull-minded/bored, or doubtful about the technique. I started thinking maybe I need to go back to concentration and work harder on that, and so I went back to anapana (according to Mindfulness in Plain English). I saw some improvement with that, but now I feel like I'm sliding back.

So this is where I am right now. I'd be glad to hear your comments (diagnosis? .

Hey Shahar,



Not going to offer any diagnosis but just wanted to let you know that despite having gone thought the cycle many times now, I still often get sleepy, dull-minded, achy, resistant,... While hugely irritating at times, it can also be a great opportunity to sit with these as they have a lot to offer. In my experience the hindrances never disappear but that's ok. These things can persist for quite long periods of time and then out of nowhere, they are gone, then they return,... Just pay attention to it as it seems to be a big part of your experience, also pay attention to any resistance to the happening of these hindrances, be it thought-based, emotional, physical (resistance, tension), or visual.

Sounds like you have crossed the A&P at least twice, but you knew that already.

What follows is the standard pattern:

People cross the A&P, and the more times they cross it, in general, the less spectacular crossing it again is, unless they are on retreat and just for some reason happened to hit it strangely hard, or haven't crossed it in a while.

Every time they cross the A&P the Dark Night follows, as you have noticed for yourself.

However, sometimes people, for whatever reason, go on retreat and:

a) cross the A&P but it is less impressive than the last time so they don't notice it
b) crossed it recently in daily life but didn't recognized it (which may have been why they scheduled a retreat, may have happened in dreams/sleep, etc.), so they actually hit the retreat in the Dark Night, which is a surprise, and thus, as things don't fit with their expectations, they fail to investigate what is actually going on, as they just want to at least get their A&P hit, which doesn't show up, and instead they have the hard stuff, which they are not ready for or don't know to just investigate, and as all this suffering is out of their control and changing a lot (Three Characteristics) but they don't want to really be experiencing that, they reject these profound insights in favor of their false expectations and thus just get stuck.
c) for whatever reason the person can't get their concentration together enough and just stay in the lower insight stages, usually stopping at the 3rd insight stage, There Characteristics, and don't go on to the middle stages.

These are all just speculations and possibilities based on what happens commonly. I like Pavel's advice.

Daniel

Thanks Pavel. I am sitting with them despite the difficulty (just got up from a sitting that included 15-20 minutes of standing trying to avoid falling asleep) and I don't feel like I'm reacting or resisting it in any way.

Could you elaborate on how I would pay attention to things like sleepiness or dull-mindedness? I've always had a problem understanding that means in practice.


One thing I noticed today (unrelated to the question) is that when I scan the body (as opposed to watching the breath), I'm much less sleepy. The mind is still pretty dull, but at least I can work with it... Wondering if I should trying switching to noting...?

Hey Shahar,

First I have to admit that I have no idea whatsoever about the sweeping/Goenka technique so any and all commentary I can offer comes from my practice of vipassana which was mainly based around noting.

When it comes to sleepiness and dullness (if it is not caused by low energy levels, sleep deprivation, bad posture, or sloth in which case these things should be addressed first) I found that there were a lot of things worth investigating or paying attention to.

Sleepiness and dullness are descriptions of states that are brimming with observable sensations - there will be some emotion, physical features of the state, probably some form of resistance to it (thoughts/urges to stop meditating, change posture, thinking about the future) and many more things - all of this will be happening very quickly, one after another, but all in an observable fashion. So when you feel sleepy, pay attention to the sensations that make this up, one after another, observing the sensations rather than the sleepiness if that makes sense. This is not a solution to the sleepiness in that it will make it disappear but it is a method of accepting sleepiness when it arises until it disappears of its own volition. So instead of continuing with your practice while being sleepy, make sleep your practice. What is this sleepiness or dullness that you are experiencing? - what is it made up of (moment-to-moment)?

Does this help?

Pavel's advice is on the money. Investigate sleepiness. Put yourself on the position where you have the most sleepiness that you can handle without actually falling asleep, or drifting away too much, and then note "sleepy, sleepy, sleepy." Really touch the sleepiness, again and again, to understand what it is.

Sleepiness was the most difficult and pronounced hindrance to my practice, ever. More than pain, more than anything. The way I would do it was I would sit until sleepiness came, and then I would try to stay sitting with it, really getting to know what the sleepiness is, how it happens, i.e., turn it into an object of investigation, note the hell out of it. If I couldn't sit anymore without phasing out, then enough sleepiness had usually accumulated that it would persist if I was standing, and then I would stand up and note again "sleepy, sleepy, sleepy". Consistently done, this eventually drives dullness away for a few hours, and then one can continue meditation if on retreat.

It did not prevent me from getting path, and it gets better the more I practice. So keep going!

Bruno