Dark Night and Actualism

Guilherme , modified 13 Years ago at 8/14/10 7:52 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/14/10 7:52 AM

Dark Night and Actualism

Posts: 50 Join Date: 6/30/10 Recent Posts
Is it at all possible to feel happy while in the Dark Night?

It looks like the only way out of the Dark Night is through enlightenment, and so people who desire an actual freedom but who are in the Dark Night would have to get enlightened first.

Guilherme
Top
Trent , modified 13 Years ago at 8/14/10 9:34 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/14/10 9:34 AM

RE: Dark Night and Actualism

Posts: 361 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi,

Guilherme  :
Is it at all possible to feel happy while in the Dark Night?


Sure, why not? An illusion is an illusion, and so in terms of seeing through it, it does not fundamentally matter much whether it seems strong or weak, nor whether the feelings are good or bad. You may find this a useful way of seeing it: 'I' am the 'dark night' and the 'dark night' is 'me.'

How would one know that they're simply not just depressive in an ordinary sense, by the way? (The signs are not always so obvious; I'm certain that people misdiagnose this just as much as any other stage on the progress of insight...and by doing so, they willingly perpetuate their misery even more ambitiously than the 'average' person might).

Guilherme :
It looks like the only way out of the Dark Night is through enlightenment, and so people who desire an actual freedom but who are in the Dark Night would have to get enlightened first.


Arhats still dark night periodically; the only final end to it is the end of the grand dark night we're all born into-- the human condition. Getting some degree of enlightenment may well be a good idea for the reasons that've been speculated on before around here...but it's hard to tell until more data is available.

Trent
Top
Carl J, modified 13 Years ago at 8/14/10 1:36 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/14/10 1:36 PM

RE: Dark Night and Actualism

Posts: 2 Join Date: 8/14/10 Recent Posts
I experienced existential angst spanning several months, after trying basic concentration meditation a few years ago (I no longer meditate). From reading MCTB, dark night looks similar to existential angst. Is this correct?
dark night existential angst
Top
Trent , modified 13 Years ago at 8/14/10 1:54 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/14/10 1:54 PM

RE: Dark Night and Actualism

Posts: 361 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Guilherme :
Trent H.:
Sure, why not? An illusion is an illusion, and so in terms of seeing through it, it does not fundamentally matter much whether it seems strong or weak, nor whether the feelings are good or bad. You may find this a useful way of seeing it: 'I' am the 'dark night' and the 'dark night' is 'me.'

Because according to Richard:

The more one enjoys and appreciates being just here right now – to the point of excellence being the norm – the greater the likelihood of a PCE happening ... a grim and/or glum person has no chance whatsoever of allowing the magical event, which indubitably shows where everyone has being going awry, to occur.


Right... all the more reason to get back to being as happy and harmless as possible, regardless of whether you are feeling a dark night or not. I'm not sure what the quote has to do with my reply, which implied that it doesn't matter if you're in a dark night, or just feeling like crap as a generality, so long as you get back to feeling happy and harmless right now.


Guilherme :
Trent H.:
How would one know that they're simply not just depressive in an ordinary sense, by the way? (The signs are not always so obvious; I'm certain that people misdiagnose this just as much as any other stage on the progress of insight...and by doing so, they willingly perpetuate their misery even more ambitiously than the 'average' person might).

Perhaps by consulting someone who has experience/knowledge/understanding of the dark night and also by reading the available literature. I did both, I communicated privately with Tarin and I read Daniel's book and some other writings, and the descriptions seem to fit my experience.


Okay, so you're in the dark night... So what? The same question remains: why aren't you enjoying right now?


Guilherme :
Trent H.:
Arhats still dark night periodically; the only final end to it is the end of the grand dark night we're all born into-- the human condition. Getting some degree of enlightenment may well be a good idea for the reasons that've been speculated on before around here...but it's hard to tell until more data is available.

OK, but an enlightened person is usually not stuck in the dark night.


The cycles continue on and on until the human condition is eliminated. Whether a person has transformed those feelings in some way to a degree that they are no longer feel "bad" like a dark night, or covered them up by other feelings, or whatever...it is still what it is.

Trent

Ps. I've got some crazy phantom "e]"s following around my quotes!
Top
Carl J, modified 13 Years ago at 8/14/10 5:31 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/14/10 5:31 PM

RE: Dark Night and Actualism

Posts: 2 Join Date: 8/14/10 Recent Posts
Trent H.:

Ps. I've got some crazy phantom "e]"s following around my quotes!


What! They are not actual? ;-)
Top
Trent , modified 13 Years ago at 8/15/10 12:16 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/15/10 12:16 PM

RE: Dark Night and Actualism

Posts: 361 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi,

Guilherme  :
Trent H.:
I'm not sure what the quote has to do with my reply, which implied that it doesn't matter if you're in a dark night, or just feeling like crap as a generality, so long as you get back to feeling happy and harmless right now.

The quote I provided is relevant to your reply because you said:

Trent H.:
An illusion is an illusion, and so in terms of seeing through it, it does not fundamentally matter much whether it seems strong or weak, nor whether the feelings are good or bad.

I suspect that, if one is feeling miserable, probably the illusion is stronger, than if for example, one felt neutral, and, as per that quote of Richard, if one has less chances of having a PCE because one is miserable, then it does matter if the illusion is strong or weak. Similarly, it does matter if one is in the dark night, because it is typical to be constantly miserable while in the dark night, as opposed to temporarily upset, which significantly reduces the chances of having a PCE.


Okay...I was simply alluding to the quote being unnecessary, as the words therein do nothing to change the fundamental question, which further points to the irrelevancy of whether what you are experiencing is a dark night or not. The same question remains: why aren't you enjoying right now?

By the way, it seems worth mentioning that successfully getting out of the dark night is not necessarily solely because of a certain vipassana technique applied for a certain period of time (or other technical aspects like that)-- but just as likely (more likely, in my opinion) has more to do with acceptance / surrender / understanding of the feelings / problems the dark night brings up, in a normal, every day sense...Which is to say that application of the actualism method would likely be a useful tool which would aid in getting out of a dark night (in either case: permanently or cyclically), even if one's aims were solely for insight via meditation.


Guilherme :
Trent H.:
Okay, so you're in the dark night... So what? The same question remains: why aren't you enjoying right now?

I really don't know why. I am not even 100% sure that this is the dark night. But I think it can be helpful to know if it is the dark night as opposed to something else because one might need to deal with it in a different manner. It might be helpful to know, for example, that the misery is of a less personal kind in the dark night, I tend to call it "unconditional misery".


The lack of certainty displayed above is what I was attempting to elicit from you via my previous statements, with the intent to show you how the case -- being in the dark night or not-- is not very important regarding the course of one's aim to enjoy this moment (especially since it's hard to know for certain, which is evident in the apparent uncertainty displayed above, even with the resources available), viz: my response to the first quotation in this post.

By the way, I'm pretty certain all misery is conditional...might be something to think about.

Guilherme :
And I don't know what the phantom "e]"s are either.


A goofy software bug, it seems.

Trent
Top
Trent , modified 13 Years ago at 8/15/10 10:09 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/15/10 10:09 PM

RE: Dark Night and Actualism

Posts: 361 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hello...my post just died from a miss-click; here's to number two making it and to making since!

By the way, welcome to the DhO!

k a steger:
Trent: Regarding "why aren't you enjoying right now?" as a response to dark night/existential angst.


If you're not enjoying right now due to a response to the dark night/existential angst, you are going to find it nearly impossible to leave the dark night or learn from it (at least so long as this keeps up). The dark night cannot be solved by any sort of emotional denial-- as I alluded to above; by doing so, you are perpetually locked in a cycle of dark nightly feelings.

k a steger:
Your question may come across as demoting the experience of the objects of dark night/ proper dark night digestion. (DN probiotics?)


I do not understand...could you rephrase and/or elaborate?

k a steger:
For example, living near a slaughter facility, in a drug-dealing community, amid an aggregate of social services for damaged veterans, jobless, and 'disabled', by a leaky waste site... well, a man is moaning in the rain outside of my house after a long day of the same. Why aren't he and I enjoying right now? Hmmm. Do I need to be enjoying right now? Does he?


I do not know why you and he are not enjoying right now, as not enjoying right now does nothing to change the conditions experienced right now to whatever it is you would rather have be the case. Also, I do not know if you or he 'need' to enjoy right now...that is a choice one makes for oneself.

k a steger:
What is the better object in 'enjoying right now' versus sensing right now? A lot of I's need to be enjoying right now and that hunger causes a prolific hullabaloo. Granted, so too DN causes such hullabaloo.


I'm not sure what you're saying or asking here...could you rephrase and/or elaborate?

k a steger:
"Successfully getting out of Dark Night" is biased framing. What about successfully getting into it?


Well...I suppose there is a way to get in and a way to get out, and depending upon one's aim, one is either successful or not. Is there an implicit point here you are making? (I am missing it if so).

k a steger:
Trent, Guilherme, anyone: what are your thoughts on the DN too long, too much?


They neither need be too long, nor too much; though I certainly understand when that is experienced to be the case.

Trent
Top
Luciano de Noeme Imoto, modified 13 Years ago at 8/16/10 9:41 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/16/10 9:41 AM

RE: Dark Night and Actualism

Posts: 75 Join Date: 6/2/10 Recent Posts
Hi Guilherme,

This so called "Dark Night" (a finest type of that silly "Astral Hell") is actually a headstrong Black Knight (a.k.a. "I"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690

So, this is a good news if "you" are in your Dark Night season.
Enjoy it... and move on!
Sincerely,
Luciano
dark night actualist’s guide
Top

Breadcrumb