Moving into Equanimity - Discussion
Moving into Equanimity
| Moving into Equanimity | Vajracchedika Ian Vajra | 8/15/10 2:44 AM |
RE: Moving into Equanimity
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tarin greco | 8/16/10 1:11 AM |
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RE: Moving into Equanimity
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Vajracchedika Ian Vajra | 8/19/10 3:38 AM |
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra, modified 13 Years ago at 8/15/10 2:44 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/15/10 2:44 AM
Moving into Equanimity
Posts: 22 Join Date: 4/13/10 Recent Posts
This is a continuation of my previous thread 'Contribution to the Discussion about Emotion', and is also a reply to Tarin at the end of that thread.
So, an update. Well, as the title suggests, I seem to have moved into Equanimity. It is however somewhat different than previously, partly because it's been a bit of a gruelling journey on the way here. I am not sure if anything particularly initiated this move, except becoming more at ease with the fundamental sense of dukkha. Suddenly pretty much full-blown Formations presented themselves - quite sweet and eerie, as I was just sitting in the Park meditating during my lunch-break!, and there was a great ease with vibrations / dharmas, and with the whole breadth of the Field of Awareness. Perhaps because of recent forays into 7th and 8th dhyanas, the spaces between things, and things like attitudes and intentions were much more easily seen as objects, encouraging Formations to arise more easily. Though there was a day or so of my consciousness spreading out into the space, so to speak, rendering the whole of my subtle body alive to the fingertips, and some resting quite spontaneously in seventh, I wasn't particularly interested or concerned to pursue this. In fact, a distinguishing mark of this period of Equanimity is the lack of interest in pursuing higher states of consciousness.
It has become clear over this last few days that the pursuit in any sense of any particular state is, well, not exactly an avoidance of this basic sense of dukkha, more a reflex of it - it is as it were what you do if you are not able to look back at it. At times I have a clear awareness that this core sense of being is the source of all bifurcation, all objects of experience in terms of the aspects of cognition and perception - though that might seem to be going a bit too far. The various objects of interest are all thrown up to distract attention from the self-building going on. The last thing that the sense of self wants is to be looked at, and not moved from. It loves the tension between itself and some object. And so after quite a few years I seem to have begun a period of directed practice, which is to look back at the source and see if it will be still - the wish to be more peaceful has surfaced more the last year or so, and I can see that this will lead to that. The sense of self flares from time to time, and kind of edges me back into re-observation, but I don't mind. At times there is a level of stillness and integration which is new and simple, though I am aware that the core self is just quiescent rather than gone. I have the experience of what is now clear to me was a PCE to look back to for that (ie the being gone) - see original post. I wouldn't say that my feelings were 'me' during practice particularly, but these sensations and the 'intentions' to move from them - yes, these are 'me', and I think substantially we mean the same thing Tarin.
I often found in years past that this core sense of self / dukkha was that which seemed to 'hold me back', resisting the flow of practice quite unaccountably, and so believed it was something that needed to be eliminated somehow - the only thing in the end that helped was days of pure patient acceptance. When I am still it is felt mostly in the solar plexus area at the front and somewhat before me if at all. If I am not fully focussed on it, and am in some sense fighting it, it moves to the mid-back, opposite the solar-plexus. It is here that I am most familiar with it in previous experience. Because of this past experience of self-as-resistance, and the immense difficulties it has 'caused', I can see how it is bound up with cycling and the Dark Night in particular. I had a sense of my 'real' self also in the heart and hara, where the more 'spiritual' aspects of my experience seemed to make their home, and they were in tension with the solar plexus, constantly dragged back by it. Now I feel almost friendly to this beastie, and am also more integrated, with the apparent end of the heart and hara. I am not in tension with it, as I see it is 'the source of me', and that there is nowhere else to go - but it is in tension with just about everything! When Tarin you ask if I have a sense of this other centre - between the hara and sexual centre - well, not particularly at the moment. They look to me though like a list of qualities that would be inevitably cultivated by serious practice - but that may just be my personality!
I really appreciated your posted conversation with Daniel at Hurricane Ranch - thanks to you both. Some short shocking episodes of radio interference on the recording aside! Clearly as I've already intimated in this post that experience of the self being gone referred to in my previous post was a PCE - this makes it clear to me that the sense of self can actually be eliminated altogether, and that it is unproblematic - it went on for a few days, so no problems there. I was slightly disturbed by the recognition that PCEs seem to have occurred early in my life around my mid-teens, and instigated the whole spiritual path thing, as well as leading to the mutha of all Dark Nights. I am not sure what relationship PCEs have to the Cycles, as a sense of self seems to be requisite for cycling - perhaps the sense of self can go into abeyance almost 'accidentally' under certain circumstances, leading to a sense of the future of the path via a PCE way beyond where one might be. This would indeed kick off The Dark Night without Any hope of EVER Getting Out if that were the case! Before realising that this recent experience was a PCE, I had thought it was just the natural end of the Path. I still see it as the end, and rather than trying to cultivate PCE directly, I am still practising as if seeing through the sense of self will lead to that. It just has to be done completely I suppose... Isn't trying to 'get to' any experience (or even non-experience, like the PCE) seriously problematic?
I became much clearer I think about what the Attention Wave is from hearing this conversation. Do I understand correctly that it is that aspect of consciousness which directs and usually limits the 'direction' of attention? Volition is a very crude add-on, but intentions are often involved with it - though if one is unpurposive one could not call it intentional either. The sense of self moving and clinging would be its 'cause'. It manifests as attending selectively. It is very much like the effect on a reflection in a pond wrought by a ripple from a point - the centre is perhaps fairly clear, but everything else is unclear, in that image...in fact is quite like the effect of one of those long-legged insects that walk on the water, zipping about here and there
mucking up the reflections.
So, an update. Well, as the title suggests, I seem to have moved into Equanimity. It is however somewhat different than previously, partly because it's been a bit of a gruelling journey on the way here. I am not sure if anything particularly initiated this move, except becoming more at ease with the fundamental sense of dukkha. Suddenly pretty much full-blown Formations presented themselves - quite sweet and eerie, as I was just sitting in the Park meditating during my lunch-break!, and there was a great ease with vibrations / dharmas, and with the whole breadth of the Field of Awareness. Perhaps because of recent forays into 7th and 8th dhyanas, the spaces between things, and things like attitudes and intentions were much more easily seen as objects, encouraging Formations to arise more easily. Though there was a day or so of my consciousness spreading out into the space, so to speak, rendering the whole of my subtle body alive to the fingertips, and some resting quite spontaneously in seventh, I wasn't particularly interested or concerned to pursue this. In fact, a distinguishing mark of this period of Equanimity is the lack of interest in pursuing higher states of consciousness.
It has become clear over this last few days that the pursuit in any sense of any particular state is, well, not exactly an avoidance of this basic sense of dukkha, more a reflex of it - it is as it were what you do if you are not able to look back at it. At times I have a clear awareness that this core sense of being is the source of all bifurcation, all objects of experience in terms of the aspects of cognition and perception - though that might seem to be going a bit too far. The various objects of interest are all thrown up to distract attention from the self-building going on. The last thing that the sense of self wants is to be looked at, and not moved from. It loves the tension between itself and some object. And so after quite a few years I seem to have begun a period of directed practice, which is to look back at the source and see if it will be still - the wish to be more peaceful has surfaced more the last year or so, and I can see that this will lead to that. The sense of self flares from time to time, and kind of edges me back into re-observation, but I don't mind. At times there is a level of stillness and integration which is new and simple, though I am aware that the core self is just quiescent rather than gone. I have the experience of what is now clear to me was a PCE to look back to for that (ie the being gone) - see original post. I wouldn't say that my feelings were 'me' during practice particularly, but these sensations and the 'intentions' to move from them - yes, these are 'me', and I think substantially we mean the same thing Tarin.
I often found in years past that this core sense of self / dukkha was that which seemed to 'hold me back', resisting the flow of practice quite unaccountably, and so believed it was something that needed to be eliminated somehow - the only thing in the end that helped was days of pure patient acceptance. When I am still it is felt mostly in the solar plexus area at the front and somewhat before me if at all. If I am not fully focussed on it, and am in some sense fighting it, it moves to the mid-back, opposite the solar-plexus. It is here that I am most familiar with it in previous experience. Because of this past experience of self-as-resistance, and the immense difficulties it has 'caused', I can see how it is bound up with cycling and the Dark Night in particular. I had a sense of my 'real' self also in the heart and hara, where the more 'spiritual' aspects of my experience seemed to make their home, and they were in tension with the solar plexus, constantly dragged back by it. Now I feel almost friendly to this beastie, and am also more integrated, with the apparent end of the heart and hara. I am not in tension with it, as I see it is 'the source of me', and that there is nowhere else to go - but it is in tension with just about everything! When Tarin you ask if I have a sense of this other centre - between the hara and sexual centre - well, not particularly at the moment. They look to me though like a list of qualities that would be inevitably cultivated by serious practice - but that may just be my personality!
I really appreciated your posted conversation with Daniel at Hurricane Ranch - thanks to you both. Some short shocking episodes of radio interference on the recording aside! Clearly as I've already intimated in this post that experience of the self being gone referred to in my previous post was a PCE - this makes it clear to me that the sense of self can actually be eliminated altogether, and that it is unproblematic - it went on for a few days, so no problems there. I was slightly disturbed by the recognition that PCEs seem to have occurred early in my life around my mid-teens, and instigated the whole spiritual path thing, as well as leading to the mutha of all Dark Nights. I am not sure what relationship PCEs have to the Cycles, as a sense of self seems to be requisite for cycling - perhaps the sense of self can go into abeyance almost 'accidentally' under certain circumstances, leading to a sense of the future of the path via a PCE way beyond where one might be. This would indeed kick off The Dark Night without Any hope of EVER Getting Out if that were the case! Before realising that this recent experience was a PCE, I had thought it was just the natural end of the Path. I still see it as the end, and rather than trying to cultivate PCE directly, I am still practising as if seeing through the sense of self will lead to that. It just has to be done completely I suppose... Isn't trying to 'get to' any experience (or even non-experience, like the PCE) seriously problematic?
I became much clearer I think about what the Attention Wave is from hearing this conversation. Do I understand correctly that it is that aspect of consciousness which directs and usually limits the 'direction' of attention? Volition is a very crude add-on, but intentions are often involved with it - though if one is unpurposive one could not call it intentional either. The sense of self moving and clinging would be its 'cause'. It manifests as attending selectively. It is very much like the effect on a reflection in a pond wrought by a ripple from a point - the centre is perhaps fairly clear, but everything else is unclear, in that image...in fact is quite like the effect of one of those long-legged insects that walk on the water, zipping about here and there
mucking up the reflections.
tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 8/16/10 1:11 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/16/10 1:11 AM
RE: Moving into Equanimity
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent PostsVajracchedika Ian Vajra:
This is a continuation of my previous thread 'Contribution to the Discussion about Emotion', and is also a reply to Tarin at the end of that thread.
So, an update. Well, as the title suggests, I seem to have moved into Equanimity.
So, an update. Well, as the title suggests, I seem to have moved into Equanimity.
ah, good to hear.
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
It has become clear over this last few days that the pursuit in any sense of any particular state is, well, not exactly an avoidance of this basic sense of dukkha, more a reflex of it - it is as it were what you do if you are not able to look back at it.
have you seen how being, its avoidance, and its reflex all seem to be the same thing? and if so.... isn't it just so funny?
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
At times I have a clear awareness that this core sense of being is the source of all bifurcation, all objects of experience in terms of the aspects of cognition and perception - though that might seem to be going a bit too far. The various objects of interest are all thrown up to distract attention from the self-building going on. The last thing that the sense of self wants is to be looked at, and not moved from. It loves the tension between itself and some object. And so after quite a few years I seem to have begun a period of directed practice, which is to look back at the source and see if it will be still - the wish to be more peaceful has surfaced more the last year or so, and I can see that this will lead to that. The sense of self flares from time to time, and kind of edges me back into re-observation, but I don't mind. At times there is a level of stillness and integration which is new and simple, though I am aware that the core self is just quiescent rather than gone.
are you immediately - then and there - aware of its quiescence? if so, how are you aware of it; in what form does the quiescence appear/present?
*
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
I have the experience of what is now clear to me was a PCE to look back to for that (ie the being gone) - see original post.
what is your take now on the feeling-tones as you described them? were they there in the (experience of what you are now calling a) pce? or were you fabricating, after-the-fact, their then-existence?
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
I wouldn't say that my feelings were 'me' during practice particularly, but these sensations and the 'intentions' to move from them - yes, these are 'me', and I think substantially we mean the same thing Tarin.
what i meant by "'i' am 'my feelings', and 'my feelings' are 'me'" is that being is both 'me' and 'my feelings'... thus, you could say, in a way, that the phenomenon of being simultaneously is and produces both 'me' and 'my feelings' (as well as my desire to move away from those feelings).
is that what you meant, too?
*
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
I often found in years past that this core sense of self / dukkha was that which seemed to 'hold me back', resisting the flow of practice quite unaccountably, and so believed it was something that needed to be eliminated somehow - the only thing in the end that helped was days of pure patient acceptance. When I am still it is felt mostly in the solar plexus area at the front and somewhat before me if at all. If I am not fully focussed on it, and am in some sense fighting it, it moves to the mid-back, opposite the solar-plexus. It is here that I am most familiar with it in previous experience. Because of this past experience of self-as-resistance, and the immense difficulties it has 'caused', I can see how it is bound up with cycling and the Dark Night in particular. I had a sense of my 'real' self also in the heart and hara, where the more 'spiritual' aspects of my experience seemed to make their home, and they were in tension with the solar plexus, constantly dragged back by it. Now I feel almost friendly to this beastie, and am also more integrated, with the apparent end of the heart and hara. I am not in tension with it, as I see it is 'the source of me', and that there is nowhere else to go - but it is in tension with just about everything!
ok.. why is it in tension? what does it want?
*
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
When Tarin you ask if I have a sense of this other centre - between the hara and sexual centre - well, not particularly at the moment. They look to me though like a list of qualities that would be inevitably cultivated by serious practice - but that may just be my personality!
or perhaps just a playful willingness to have fun with a bit of sensitively directed attention.. a gentle intuiting of sorts.
i say this because several people i've been face-to-face with have reported success at doing this on their very first try.
(besides, who doesn't have a bit of a soft spot somewhere for feeling buoyant, sweet and naive?)
*
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
I really appreciated your posted conversation with Daniel at Hurricane Ranch - thanks to you both. Some short shocking episodes of radio interference on the recording aside!
you're welcome.. and those mysterious recordings were mysterious.
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
Clearly as I've already intimated in this post that experience of the self being gone referred to in my previous post was a PCE - this makes it clear to me that the sense of self can actually be eliminated altogether, and that it is unproblematic - it went on for a few days, so no problems there.
is it equally unproblematic that all feelings - and feeling-tones can be eliminated altogether? and is it unproblematic because you've seen how genuinely worthwhile what is there, instead, is?
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
I was slightly disturbed by the recognition that PCEs seem to have occurred early in my life around my mid-teens, and instigated the whole spiritual path thing, as well as leading to the mutha of all Dark Nights.
a pce does seem to have functioned as an arising and passing event (as is mapped in the progress of insight) for some. for others, it doesn't have that effect, and is simply forgotten and buried under all the other, louder, memories (until it is later recalled).
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
I am not sure what relationship PCEs have to the Cycles, as a sense of self seems to be requisite for cycling - perhaps the sense of self can go into abeyance almost 'accidentally' under certain circumstances, leading to a sense of the future of the path via a PCE way beyond where one might be.
that was probably what happened to me, actually...
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
This would indeed kick off The Dark Night without Any hope of EVER Getting Out if that were the case!
...and yet, i came out ok! (better than ok, in fact)
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
Before realising that this recent experience was a PCE, I had thought it was just the natural end of the Path. I still see it as the end, and rather than trying to cultivate PCE directly, I am still practising as if seeing through the sense of self will lead to that. It just has to be done completely I suppose... Isn't trying to 'get to' any experience (or even non-experience, like the PCE) seriously problematic?
no, not if trying to 'get to' it actually takes you there.
it can seem paradoxical.. because its something that 'you do' and something that happens 'on its own'.. at the same time.
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
I became much clearer I think about what the Attention Wave is from hearing this conversation. Do I understand correctly that it is that aspect of consciousness which directs and usually limits the 'direction' of attention? Volition is a very crude add-on, but intentions are often involved with it - though if one is unpurposive one could not call it intentional either. The sense of self moving and clinging would be its 'cause'. It manifests as attending selectively. It is very much like the effect on a reflection in a pond wrought by a ripple from a point - the centre is perhaps fairly clear, but everything else is unclear, in that image...in fact is quite like the effect of one of those long-legged insects that walk on the water, zipping about here and there mucking up the reflections.
that it is the ripple sounds about right.
also, consider that it may be the reflection itself.
tarin
Vajracchedika Ian Vajra, modified 13 Years ago at 8/19/10 3:38 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/19/10 3:38 AM
RE: Moving into Equanimity
Posts: 22 Join Date: 4/13/10 Recent Posts
Thanks for your response Tarin!
I shall attempt to respond to your points within a flowing framework rather than one by one.
So I have been looking at 'being', or at least attempting to look back at it from objects that 'it' is interested in. Quite soon I became uninterested in this - the sensations chosen aren't special, and selectively chasing certain being-object clusters just 'exaggerates' the unsatisfactoriness of that mode of experience. That's a really word-y way of saying that duality is unsatisfactory, and not something one wants to maintain, on the whole! This is quite a useful insight - really turning the 'what' (I am doing) into a 'how' (am I doing it) - though I appreciate that there are all kinds of sensations that one can hitch up to in the move away from this. I have been looking at allowing attention to be free, and noticing the clinging quality rather than the particular sensation, since then, after a particularly nauseating experience of watching a sensation-cluster I was clinging to. So currently there is a sense of being, attention-wave on mostly (rather than off!), and playing with being free. It should at least give me some more clarity about what to see through. What can I say so far? I'm noticing the fluidity of experience and how an almost surreal collocation of scatterings of sensations make up most of that experience. At times, I can see how certain passages of experience would be nightmarish and Dark-Night-y if you were trying to cling on but just couldn't. It's easier by far from being basically in and around Equanimity. Mostly just a gentle curiosity, and actually quite a sense of breadth - it's an easier and truer place to live from. I'm not sure what the clinging of Being wants exactly - I'm not sure I want to move towards 'content' territory, as I'm looking at things from the sensation level. I don't know that the answers would be terribly profound - some way of survival, security, peace oddly enough - that latter is perhaps something that Being and Awareness can agree on at last!
At times the clinging is quiescent, which simply allows the attention wave to expand outward to the wider field. The 'me' is it seems quiescent being. Once the clinging puttered a bit and then stopped altogether. This was peaceful and quiet to another degree altogether. The weary engine of being was having a rest! It was akin to a PCE - in fact may have essentially been one while sitting, I suppose. The attention wave goes out, there is a simple free curiosity and open-ness. I'm at the point where the issue is not whether I am comfortable with this state or with the idea of living from it, or even have what I would call immediate stability problems - I am not even that keen to pursue it in any direct or full-on sense - it is that I don't really understand it anything like well enough to maintain it or set up the conditions to bring it about. Of course, after the event one can marvel at it a bit, and inevitably this will lead to a variety of feeling-type responses. That open empty peacefulness is after all quite magical, if one separates from it...
If I lose mindfulness, usually in the sometimes hectic working environment, or am lost in thought, and return, I notice a 'mood' sometimes which is heavy with belief in the 'importance/seriousness' of 'things'... and let go of it, and the open playful dimension returns. It is just letting go of a habitual delusion. If I sit at work in my lunch-hour, for 15 mins or so, I allow any formless realms or fruitions to arise, and they do so easily enough - that is I suppose the more samatha element of my practice. My main sits I work with all this other stuff in.
I'm off on a week's retreat in about 36 hours time or so, though will keep my eyes on DhO until then.
Best wishes Vajracchedika
I shall attempt to respond to your points within a flowing framework rather than one by one.
So I have been looking at 'being', or at least attempting to look back at it from objects that 'it' is interested in. Quite soon I became uninterested in this - the sensations chosen aren't special, and selectively chasing certain being-object clusters just 'exaggerates' the unsatisfactoriness of that mode of experience. That's a really word-y way of saying that duality is unsatisfactory, and not something one wants to maintain, on the whole! This is quite a useful insight - really turning the 'what' (I am doing) into a 'how' (am I doing it) - though I appreciate that there are all kinds of sensations that one can hitch up to in the move away from this. I have been looking at allowing attention to be free, and noticing the clinging quality rather than the particular sensation, since then, after a particularly nauseating experience of watching a sensation-cluster I was clinging to. So currently there is a sense of being, attention-wave on mostly (rather than off!), and playing with being free. It should at least give me some more clarity about what to see through. What can I say so far? I'm noticing the fluidity of experience and how an almost surreal collocation of scatterings of sensations make up most of that experience. At times, I can see how certain passages of experience would be nightmarish and Dark-Night-y if you were trying to cling on but just couldn't. It's easier by far from being basically in and around Equanimity. Mostly just a gentle curiosity, and actually quite a sense of breadth - it's an easier and truer place to live from. I'm not sure what the clinging of Being wants exactly - I'm not sure I want to move towards 'content' territory, as I'm looking at things from the sensation level. I don't know that the answers would be terribly profound - some way of survival, security, peace oddly enough - that latter is perhaps something that Being and Awareness can agree on at last!
At times the clinging is quiescent, which simply allows the attention wave to expand outward to the wider field. The 'me' is it seems quiescent being. Once the clinging puttered a bit and then stopped altogether. This was peaceful and quiet to another degree altogether. The weary engine of being was having a rest! It was akin to a PCE - in fact may have essentially been one while sitting, I suppose. The attention wave goes out, there is a simple free curiosity and open-ness. I'm at the point where the issue is not whether I am comfortable with this state or with the idea of living from it, or even have what I would call immediate stability problems - I am not even that keen to pursue it in any direct or full-on sense - it is that I don't really understand it anything like well enough to maintain it or set up the conditions to bring it about. Of course, after the event one can marvel at it a bit, and inevitably this will lead to a variety of feeling-type responses. That open empty peacefulness is after all quite magical, if one separates from it...
If I lose mindfulness, usually in the sometimes hectic working environment, or am lost in thought, and return, I notice a 'mood' sometimes which is heavy with belief in the 'importance/seriousness' of 'things'... and let go of it, and the open playful dimension returns. It is just letting go of a habitual delusion. If I sit at work in my lunch-hour, for 15 mins or so, I allow any formless realms or fruitions to arise, and they do so easily enough - that is I suppose the more samatha element of my practice. My main sits I work with all this other stuff in.
I'm off on a week's retreat in about 36 hours time or so, though will keep my eyes on DhO until then.
Best wishes Vajracchedika