Actualism and Romance - Discussion
Actualism and Romance
Lloth _, modified 14 Years ago at 8/16/10 8:01 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 8/16/10 6:44 PM
Actualism and Romance
Posts: 17 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Having done some experiments with the PCE, and seeing that they are very pleasant, clear and all the things described **, yet from my current mixed state, capable of getting into both PCE and retain cycle mode. The mere idea of losing all emotions seems particularly negative. I'm not inherently against the idea, and the merits of the PCE mode sure should be stated to exist.
With some experimentation, I've noticed that desire for another person is remarkably diminished when in PCE-like states, and it's not inherently a problem. However, once you get out of it, it seems that it does become a problem, since the notion that you'll never be able to look into someones eyes and feel love seems particularly hard to give up and quite frankly not worth it.
For an absolutely free person, what's your experience with Romantic Relationships? Is there still possible to have one sans any emotions? Does it change form (I do note the difference between being actually with someone physically compared to thoughts of someone)? Is sex still pleasurable or desirable? I also know that the emotion is clouding my judgment, however this does not change the mere fact that this emotion is a staple of that relationship.
Perhaps the only thing to do would be to go into a PCE state while with that person, and see the effects. Until then your input would be valuable.
Also in a more academic interest (I've played around with it, but I don't want to bias the results):
* Does subvocalization (reading something and hearing the words in your mind) still happen when getting into this state 'deep' enough?
* Also last week I was in a largely Dark Night territory, which seemed to impact the ability to get into it. I was still able to go outside and wander about which seemed to work, but DN makes all this harder to do.
* Aside from the obvious lack of regular emotions (which is really a good thing most of the time), do thoughts remain or is thought a sign that you're not in that mode?
** (I haven't tested going into jhana from this state just yet, but I can confirm that it seems that it eliminates introspection and largely pushes the cycles to the background, although things can seep through occasionally, is induced by childlike thoughts (Sounds very similar to zen's beginner mind), and is increased by walks in nature and tuning into 'pure action' and letting the world take you, sitting by itself seems to depend on the mode of inspection, but I'm not going to get into that right now. Activities such as drawing and letting the pencil do the work seems to be related, as well as frolicking and play in general (I get the urge to play with legos for the mere sake of playing, or swimming and just feeling the outside world around me).
With some experimentation, I've noticed that desire for another person is remarkably diminished when in PCE-like states, and it's not inherently a problem. However, once you get out of it, it seems that it does become a problem, since the notion that you'll never be able to look into someones eyes and feel love seems particularly hard to give up and quite frankly not worth it.
For an absolutely free person, what's your experience with Romantic Relationships? Is there still possible to have one sans any emotions? Does it change form (I do note the difference between being actually with someone physically compared to thoughts of someone)? Is sex still pleasurable or desirable? I also know that the emotion is clouding my judgment, however this does not change the mere fact that this emotion is a staple of that relationship.
Perhaps the only thing to do would be to go into a PCE state while with that person, and see the effects. Until then your input would be valuable.
Also in a more academic interest (I've played around with it, but I don't want to bias the results):
* Does subvocalization (reading something and hearing the words in your mind) still happen when getting into this state 'deep' enough?
* Also last week I was in a largely Dark Night territory, which seemed to impact the ability to get into it. I was still able to go outside and wander about which seemed to work, but DN makes all this harder to do.
* Aside from the obvious lack of regular emotions (which is really a good thing most of the time), do thoughts remain or is thought a sign that you're not in that mode?
** (I haven't tested going into jhana from this state just yet, but I can confirm that it seems that it eliminates introspection and largely pushes the cycles to the background, although things can seep through occasionally, is induced by childlike thoughts (Sounds very similar to zen's beginner mind), and is increased by walks in nature and tuning into 'pure action' and letting the world take you, sitting by itself seems to depend on the mode of inspection, but I'm not going to get into that right now. Activities such as drawing and letting the pencil do the work seems to be related, as well as frolicking and play in general (I get the urge to play with legos for the mere sake of playing, or swimming and just feeling the outside world around me).
S Kyle, modified 14 Years ago at 8/16/10 8:11 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 8/16/10 8:11 PM
RE: Actualism and Romance
Posts: 26 Join Date: 7/25/10 Recent Posts
I found this an interesting read on the question you're asking.
http://actualfreedom.com.au/actualism/others/sc-other/sco-love.htm
http://actualfreedom.com.au/actualism/others/sc-other/sco-love.htm
Lloth _, modified 14 Years ago at 8/18/10 12:23 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 8/18/10 12:22 PM
RE: Actualism and Romance
Posts: 17 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
That post basically mentions the difference between caring about someone in a behavioral sense, compared to caring about them in an emotional sense.
Here are a few interesting observations I've had:
- Emotions are like all things, and don't last.
- It seems that after a particularly strong emotion, it burns itself out.
- Like they mention in that post, it seems that looking in from PCE mode (when some sensations still seep through), it appears from that perspective that all emotions are just trying to get something, to move you or get you to do something on way or another in the future (I think it's an interesting point that all thoughts and emotions essentially build a mental straw-man and then use that to justify themselves). It seems it impedes on the stillness.
- However, from the cycling mode itself, it seems that emotions don't have this same function, I'm not sure exactly what I mean by that but that's the feeling I get. Or at least they are not looked at in the same way. It seems that they justify themselves better?
Regarding my earlier question regarding romance. It seems that the PCE makes me more 'real', and a more enjoyable person to be around. However, I'm not sure if it's appropriate for all situations at all times within a relationship. But so far it seems I'm functioning quite well. It seems within the PCE mode, I'm far more adaptable to situations, and don't particularly care about a certain outcome.
Overall, it seems that the two modes have different ways of accomplishing similar things. And it takes awhile to get used to the other perspective.
Since no-one answered my questions here are my tentative answers:
- There is no subvocalization, it seems you can read and pick up the information without hearing it in your head if you get absorbed in the state long enough.
- Thoughts seem to be intermittent and generally signify you're not in the state itself. They seem like an intrusion almost.
Here are a few interesting observations I've had:
- Emotions are like all things, and don't last.
- It seems that after a particularly strong emotion, it burns itself out.
- Like they mention in that post, it seems that looking in from PCE mode (when some sensations still seep through), it appears from that perspective that all emotions are just trying to get something, to move you or get you to do something on way or another in the future (I think it's an interesting point that all thoughts and emotions essentially build a mental straw-man and then use that to justify themselves). It seems it impedes on the stillness.
- However, from the cycling mode itself, it seems that emotions don't have this same function, I'm not sure exactly what I mean by that but that's the feeling I get. Or at least they are not looked at in the same way. It seems that they justify themselves better?
Regarding my earlier question regarding romance. It seems that the PCE makes me more 'real', and a more enjoyable person to be around. However, I'm not sure if it's appropriate for all situations at all times within a relationship. But so far it seems I'm functioning quite well. It seems within the PCE mode, I'm far more adaptable to situations, and don't particularly care about a certain outcome.
Overall, it seems that the two modes have different ways of accomplishing similar things. And it takes awhile to get used to the other perspective.
Since no-one answered my questions here are my tentative answers:
- There is no subvocalization, it seems you can read and pick up the information without hearing it in your head if you get absorbed in the state long enough.
- Thoughts seem to be intermittent and generally signify you're not in the state itself. They seem like an intrusion almost.
Luciano de Noeme Imoto, modified 14 Years ago at 8/24/10 3:33 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 8/20/10 2:54 PM
RE: Actualism and Romance
Posts: 75 Join Date: 6/2/10 Recent Posts
Hello Lloth,
From the Actual Freedom Trust website and its two books (RichardĀ“s Journal and PeterĀ“s Journal) and other sources it seems clear that the actualism theory adopted by Richard is not a psychological and naturalistic theory (materialist) and it is not religious or metaphysical in any way (espiritualist). In fact it demythologizes religion and science. But art and technology are allowed.
An actualist makes no metaphysical speculations, s/he simply takes as given the universe and its laws and solely uses these to explain all of human nature, our situation and meaning in and of life. Pure commom sense in action. And in the same time without preaching any philosophical base to be drawn from the theories of naturalism and evolutionary humanism.
Surely a new paradigma, with a new meme called "The Third Alternative": a experiential and simple method discovered to erradicate ego and soul to live and experience this physical actual universe.
In sum, psychological and psychic suicide.
Sincerely,
Luciano
From the Actual Freedom Trust website and its two books (RichardĀ“s Journal and PeterĀ“s Journal) and other sources it seems clear that the actualism theory adopted by Richard is not a psychological and naturalistic theory (materialist) and it is not religious or metaphysical in any way (espiritualist). In fact it demythologizes religion and science. But art and technology are allowed.
An actualist makes no metaphysical speculations, s/he simply takes as given the universe and its laws and solely uses these to explain all of human nature, our situation and meaning in and of life. Pure commom sense in action. And in the same time without preaching any philosophical base to be drawn from the theories of naturalism and evolutionary humanism.
Surely a new paradigma, with a new meme called "The Third Alternative": a experiential and simple method discovered to erradicate ego and soul to live and experience this physical actual universe.
In sum, psychological and psychic suicide.
Sincerely,
Luciano
Jeff Grove, modified 14 Years ago at 8/24/10 6:45 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 8/23/10 7:00 AM
RE: Actualism and Romance
Posts: 310 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Shaivism has a sutra that states - Mind is mantra
Words convey experience and if we look at the definition of romance it isn't flattering
- Ardent emotional attachment or involvement between people; love
- A strong, sometimes short-lived attachment, fascination, or enthusiasm for something
- an exaggeration or fabrication that has no real substance
- to seek to gain the favor of, as by flattery; court
- An artistic work, such as a novel, story, or film, that deals with sexual love, especially in an idealized form.
An attachment is a state of clinging that comes from a false belief that something or someone is necessary for your happiness. Truth is no thing or person outside of you has the power to make you happy or unhappy. Whether you are aware of it or not it is you and only you who decides to be happy or unhappy. This "you" (psyche energy) leaves no trace when seen.
As to "love" how can you love someone you cant live without, there is only desire and fear.
What if love was not discriminatory was effortless and found in freedom and fearlessness.
Words convey experience and if we look at the definition of romance it isn't flattering
- Ardent emotional attachment or involvement between people; love
- A strong, sometimes short-lived attachment, fascination, or enthusiasm for something
- an exaggeration or fabrication that has no real substance
- to seek to gain the favor of, as by flattery; court
- An artistic work, such as a novel, story, or film, that deals with sexual love, especially in an idealized form.
An attachment is a state of clinging that comes from a false belief that something or someone is necessary for your happiness. Truth is no thing or person outside of you has the power to make you happy or unhappy. Whether you are aware of it or not it is you and only you who decides to be happy or unhappy. This "you" (psyche energy) leaves no trace when seen.
As to "love" how can you love someone you cant live without, there is only desire and fear.
What if love was not discriminatory was effortless and found in freedom and fearlessness.
Luciano de Noeme Imoto, modified 14 Years ago at 8/24/10 4:03 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 8/24/10 4:03 PM
RE: Actualism and Romance
Posts: 75 Join Date: 6/2/10 Recent PostsThis "you" (psyche energy) leaves no trace when seen.
Like that Sun Dogs* phenomenon, only one sun is actual: that luminous ring or halo on either side of it are mere "romantic" bright spots.
"There are three I's altogether... but only one is actual." - Richard.
Are you considering this possibility?
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog
tarin greco, modified 14 Years ago at 8/31/10 7:49 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 8/27/10 10:55 AM
RE: Actualism and Romance
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent PostsLloth _:
Having done some experiments with the PCE, and seeing that they are very pleasant, clear and all the things described **, yet from my current mixed state, capable of getting into both PCE and retain cycle mode. The mere idea of losing all emotions seems particularly negative. I'm not inherently against the idea, and the merits of the PCE mode sure should be stated to exist.
can you see that whatever is in the mixture here (in what you describe as 'your current mixed state') does not include the pce?
if so, you may be in a position to see what causes the mere idea of losing all emotions to seem particularly negative.
Lloth _:
With some experimentation, I've noticed that desire for another person is remarkably diminished when in PCE-like states, and it's not inherently a problem. However, once you get out of it, it seems that it does become a problem, since the notion that you'll never be able to look into someones eyes and feel love seems particularly hard to give up and quite frankly not worth it.
rather than look into someone's eyes, have you tried looking *at* their eyes?
'i' thought more highly of seeing another person as they are than of using them as a canvas on which to project my feelings.
*
Lloth _:
For an absolutely free person, what's your experience with Romantic Relationships?
that they needn't at all be romantic[1] in the conventional sense to be meaningful and worthwhile,.
Lloth _:
Is there still possible to have one sans any emotions?
an entirely meaningful and worthwhile companionship is still possible.
Lloth _:
Does it change form (I do note the difference between being actually with someone physically compared to thoughts of someone)?
could you re-phrase that, explaining what you intend to convey by bringing up the difference between 'being actually with someone physically' and (presumably having) 'thoughts of someone'?
Lloth _:
Is sex still pleasurable or desirable?
yes (sexual stimulation is inherently pleasurable); no (as nothing is desirable when no desire operates).
Lloth _:
I also know that the emotion is clouding my judgment, however this does not change the mere fact that this emotion is a staple of that relationship.
if emotion is clouding your judgement, how can you know what clear judgement is?
Lloth _:
Perhaps the only thing to do would be to go into a PCE state while with that person, and see the effects. Until then your input would be valuable.
it has been more than a week now since you wrote this.. do you have anything to report?
*
Lloth _:
Also in a more academic interest (I've played around with it, but I don't want to bias the results):
* Does subvocalization (reading something and hearing the words in your mind) still happen when getting into this state 'deep' enough?
almost never, but it has sometimes.
Lloth _:
* Aside from the obvious lack of regular emotions (which is really a good thing most of the time), do thoughts remain or is thought a sign that you're not in that mode?
aside from not having regular emotions (or irregular ones for that matter), i usually only think i'm trying to figure something out.. stray thoughts don't often happen.
Lloth _:
** (I haven't tested going into jhana from this state just yet, but I can confirm that it seems that it eliminates introspection and largely pushes the cycles to the background, although things can seep through occasionally, is induced by childlike thoughts (Sounds very similar to zen's beginner mind), and is increased by walks in nature and tuning into 'pure action' and letting the world take you, sitting by itself seems to depend on the mode of inspection, but I'm not going to get into that right now. Activities such as drawing and letting the pencil do the work seems to be related, as well as frolicking and play in general (I get the urge to play with legos for the mere sake of playing, or swimming and just feeling the outside world around me).
genuinely being naive is great fun, isn't it?
tarin
[1]
a. A love affair.
b. Ardent emotional attachment or involvement between people; love.
c. A strong, sometimes short-lived attachment, fascination, or enthusiasm for something.
Lloth _, modified 14 Years ago at 8/31/10 7:22 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 8/31/10 7:06 PM
RE: Actualism and Romance
Posts: 17 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Postscan you see that whatever is in the mixture here (in what you describe as 'your current mixed state') does not include the pce? |
Well it's possible my definition of PCE doesn't line up with yours, but it seems that there is a range of experiences one can be in between the two modes, where there still seems to be an internal world for example and you can see the outline of external reality. However yes, I guess you're right that any investigation from within the full thing is a mute point.
rather than look into someone's eyes, have you tried looking *at* their eyes?
No, but I suspect it'll have the same calm quality. However it's a matter of comparing the two experiences and seeing which one is better. In that case I'm unsure. I guess I'll get back to you on that.
Could you re-phrase that, explaining what you intend to convey by bringing up the difference between 'being actually with someone physically' and (presumably having) 'thoughts of someone'? |
The experience of thinking is different than the experience of being in front of someone and being with them. That seems pretty obvious, but highlighting the distinction was important for me.
I've been doing quite a lot of investigation into the state, and it seems that I've more or less resolved the issue with the strong emotional content. I basically had to sit myself down and watch a video over and over again which brought up those emotions and holding them in an accepting manner in my experience. Was a bit rough, but I realized that the emotion itself as well as the thought processes around it really are no indicator of what's really happening the world. It can be somewhat accurate, of course, but it seems that it jumbles things. It's really the fear of losing the capacity for feeling that emotion that brings up that strong resistance. I suspect that hitting Dark Night territory also caused a lot of the issues, and seemed to all tie into together.
I've noticed this before, but it seems that recent experiences brought out this particular aspect of this practice. When you let your experience take you, you move on your own. However, it seems that when I was walking to a bus station near a highway, I kept getting the urge to play in the road and walk in random patterns. Giving into this impulses didn't actually cause me harm, but it was amusing to see that I was just playing around with everything, with no real concerns, and when the mind reasserted itself it would basically chastise me for being stupid, or be fearful of the risks of getting run over or some such thing. This is less of a big deal when I'm walking outside at night around the neighborhood, because the seeming danger to really let experience take you is much less.
The 'pull' also wanted to do things such as go into a real estate office, but it seems that having a purpose: getting to the bus station eventually superseded that at the moment and I could resist it.
What's interesting though, the moments you are being pulled along with experience the general attitude is: Everything is ok right now, don't worry about the future, it'll all work out. And from this perspective, just doing things as they happen really is the best strategy, because in the future if you ever have to face that, then it'll be faced with the same calm playful manner.
Another interesting this which might be useful is talking to yourself. I mean talking out loud about what you're experiencing, since it's weird to lose the ability for feedback in your daily life without thoughts. When doing sitting meditation this lose of functionality is not really a problem, but since practice is sort of a real life thing at the moment, having feedback to what you're experiencing is useful.
I'd still be interested the impact on sex. Whether that be the desire to have it, or the meaningfulness of the physical mechanics of it.
Lloth _, modified 14 Years ago at 9/5/10 6:38 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 9/5/10 6:38 PM
RE: Actualism and Romance
Posts: 17 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent PostsWhat's interesting though, the moments you are being pulled along with experience the general attitude is: Everything is ok right now, don't worry about the future, it'll all work out. And from this perspective, just doing things as they happen really is the best strategy, because in the future if you ever have to face that, then it'll be faced with the same calm playful manner.
This has been resolved earlier this week. It seems there is a sweet spot in between being pulled along with experience, and "being in control", where the PCE really hits.
It makes me more functional in real life in just about every instance. I was able to pay attention in class better than when cycling. For the first time in my life, I'm actually interested in what happens in school irrespective of the content of the lessons.
Talking to old friends was a bit weird since classes started again. I think old patterns need to rework themselves. However with people I don't know too well, I'm able to listen to them and have really good conversations.
I'd still be interested the impact on sex. Whether that be the desire to have it, or the meaningfulness of the physical mechanics of it.
This has also more or less been resolved. All the mechanics still work (even orgasm), but the desire to get it, and the pleasure that's derived from it is gone in the PCE (it's weird having an orgasm which you don't derive pleasure from). Which is acceptable.
I've been having really vivid dreams all week. Not sure if that's related. Been in either a PCE or on the edge of one all week. There is still some getting used to it and making it stick, but from what I can see the major issues have been resolved.