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Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 2/28/18 5:32 PM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Yilun Ong 2/24/18 7:41 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 2/25/18 5:36 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much terry 2/27/18 2:13 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much terry 2/27/18 11:17 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 2/27/18 8:51 PM
RE: Clueless, pretty much terry 2/28/18 6:39 PM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Chris Marti 2/24/18 8:37 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 2/25/18 5:49 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Dom Stone 2/24/18 9:15 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much DeNada 2/24/18 9:58 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 2/25/18 6:02 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much seth tapper 2/24/18 11:49 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 2/25/18 6:45 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Yilun Ong 2/26/18 2:11 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much alguidar 2/26/18 5:01 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 2/26/18 9:18 PM
RE: Clueless, pretty much seth tapper 2/27/18 4:05 PM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 2/27/18 8:53 PM
RE: Clueless, pretty much terry 2/28/18 5:44 PM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 2/26/18 9:22 PM
RE: Clueless, pretty much alguidar 2/27/18 5:25 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 2/27/18 6:01 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Stirling Campbell 2/27/18 10:54 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 2/27/18 8:59 PM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Yilun Ong 2/28/18 4:36 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much alguidar 2/28/18 6:29 AM
RE: Clueless, pretty much dave m 3/1/18 10:11 PM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 3/3/18 8:33 PM
RE: Clueless, pretty much seth tapper 3/4/18 12:58 PM
RE: Clueless, pretty much Do Not Know 3/10/18 5:39 AM
Clueless, pretty much
non-dual experience nonduality mystical experience: what was that? taxonomy phenomenon non-self
Answer
2/28/18 5:32 PM
Don't think I'm like most on this forum. Don't meditate in any traditional sense. Just a lot of inquiry. 

I gather from listening to interviews of Danial Ingram that you folks are into classifying experiences. Well, would love for someone to tell me what you think the following was. I thought it was some kind of waking up experience, but I certainly wouldn't call myself enlightened at this point, though changed for sure.

1. Everything is perfect. Period. Everything that has happened, is happening, or will happen is exactly as it should be.
2. I love everyone absolutely and unconditionally.
3. I am not in control of anything I do. All I have is thoughts that are laid over all actions I take.

These are insights I “knew” on the afternoon of 9–29–17 with a certainty I’ve never had in my life. These were the results of what appeared to be a non-dual experience that came out of nowhere while in a grocery store. I’ve been a hard core non-believer and highly skeptical of any claims of mystical experiences for 30 years. I once wouldn’t go on a 2nd date with a girl in college, though super sweet, great in all kinds of ways, and apparently really into me, after the first date because she had the audacity to have a Shirley MacLaine book on her bookshelf. But for the last 10 years I have read a little and listened to a lot of audio from the non-dual teachers Adyashanti, Jed McKenna, and Byron Katie. Always with a very skeptical mindset and always thinking they exaggerated experiences that seemed mystical to me. So from reading and listening to teachings about non-dualism I’d heard what “waking up” experiences can be like and you’ll see below that though this experience came “like a thief in the night” and very suddenly, I suspected what was happening very soon after it started.

As with most people that say they’ve had a non-dual experience I have to say that it, in and of itself, is impossible to describe. All I really know is that I remember an existence that was just so different than normal. But I’ll try below by describing what I remember happening during the experience, mostly what I said.

I went to get just a few things from the grocery store. On the way in I realized I hadn’t had my second ½ cup of coffee. So I went to get one shot of espresso. Drank it quickly and started my shopping. I was feeling fine. I was noticing a lot; really paying attention to my trip through the store. Doing a decent job at watching my thoughts and what was happening around me. When I was in line I felt ever so slightly strange and remember looking at the young lady who checked me out with a lot of focus. I remember feeling sorry for her, but questioning that thought. I think I smiled ever so slightly to myself for starting to notice so many things. As I left the line with my cart I very quickly started to feel weird. By the time I got to the doors to exit, really weird. As I passed through the right side exit it happened. I had something like tunnel vision and I felt something leave me and it moved in front of me. This was very clear. I really didn’t think something was leaving me, but I just physically felt that way. It was sudden and I started to tear up very quickly. I was breathing very deeply and my heart felt like it was speeding up and pounding. I walked to the car, still having some kind of different way of seeing (though nothing was distorted). I opened a back passenger door (which I normally don’t do) and just left the cart and bags there. I sat in the car and thought I was going to call Maria (my wife). I was starting to get happy because I thought I knew what was happening. I thought I was having an awakening experience. I was also pretty confused. I “decided” to just go home and remembered the cart and bags were just sitting there. So I got out and put them in the trunk.

As I drove home, still confused, I kept thinking that it was happening, but I couldn’t believe it. I think I was thinking a fair amount during the drive. When I got home I was still very dazed. I put the groceries down and immediately tried to find Maria. When I saw her I think I had a hard time speaking. I immediately told her that I thought I was waking up and had a hard time articulating. Maria later told me I looked kind of crazy and my eyes were wide open. She thought I might have taken some medication and was having a bad reaction. At this point the number of thoughts had slowed significantly.

Below is a list of most of what happened once I started talking to Maria…as I remembered it about a week after the experience. Most is quotes of what I said out loud. I should point out that I’m usually a horrible story teller because I have a hard time exaggerating. That applies to the below: nothing is exaggerated (but would I know if I did exaggerate?!).
  1. Telling Maria, “Something is happening; I think I’m having a waking up experience.”
  2. I clearly thought it was a waking up experience, but at the same time completely baffled and not understanding.
  3. “This is weird! So weird!”
  4. “Fuck, fuck, fuck. I can’t believe this!”
  5. “Maria, this is so weird. I don’t understand it at all, but I know.”
  6. “I didn’t know it would be like this.”
  7. I actually said about three times as much as I’m writing. I felt like I was spitting out the words; they couldn’t not come out of my mouth and at the same time came out with some effort. It seemed difficult to speak and at the same time I couldn’t not speak.
  8. “Everything really is perfect as it is. It really is all okay. Maria, you don’t understand, but it really is okay. I can see you don’t understand. I can see you’re worried.” Hugging Maria a lot.
  9. “It is all okay, but I don’t understand that!” “How do I know this?!” I kept talking out loud to myself.
  10. I jumped up and down a few times, and paced a little.
  11. “This is so weird!” many times
  12. “I love everyone. I love everyone. Everyone, even people that I used to think are annoying or bad. I love everyone. I love the people that have wronged me. I love Simon! Even though he’s annoying. You see Maria!? It is so weird! I can’t believe this; I love and forgive everyone, no matter what they’ve done. And know they haven’t done anything wrong!”
  13. “Oh my god, I forgive everyone! I forgive myself! I have no judgements. Maria, I have no judgments of you at all! I’ve been not really judging you in an active way for a long time or at least not wanting to judge you at all. But at this moment I can’t judge you and I forgive myself for judging you.”
  14. “So much weight has been lifted!”
  15. “Fuck…and I don’t care that I’m swearing! I can’t believe that! I usually worry about swearing. And I’m not embarrassed about anything! I can’t believe this! I have no embarrassment!”
  16. “That is so weird!”
  17. “All religions. They are such liars! But that’s okay! I completely forgive and understand why they lie. It is all okay! I can’t believe this! It is so weird!”
  18. “This is like I’ve heard. But not what I thought it would be like. Things are happening that I thought people exaggerated or lied about”
  19. “I can’t believe this is happening to me! And there is no me that it is happening to! That is so weird!”
  20. “And why didn’t this happen to someone else. Someone who suffered much more than me. There are so many people that have suffered so much more than me.”
  21. “Maria, I’m having these sensations. Like fire coming out of my arms and legs. But I can see it isn’t fire or electricity. And it really doesn’t feel like those, but it is real and I’m so surprised. I thought they [those who’ve I’ve read firsthand accounts of waking up] all were lying or exaggerating about this feeling. It is so weird. It doesn’t really hurt. It is really fine.”
  22. “Being at one with all isn’t like what they say or like what I thought it would be. It isn’t that I’m one with everything. It is that there just isn’t anything between us. There isn’t an “I” standing in the way. When I look at the trees I just see it all as one picture, moving in front of me.”
  23. “Maria, he loves you so much and you don’t even know it! HE doesn’t even really know it!”
  24. I felt like I had been given “truth serum.” There aren’t any big secrets to hide from Maria, but I was very honest with her. If I had had an affair I think I would have told Maria.
  25. Talking to myself with eyes closed, “That’s not true. That’s not true. Not true. Not true.” It just kept going. I was “seeing” thoughts and checking them off as not true. I have to be very clear about this: I couldn’t really see the thoughts. I just knew they were passing. Actually, that’s not accurate either. It was as if I very, very quickly saw big thoughts or packages of thoughts go incredibly fast by me and I dismissed the reality of them. There were like images that represented whole set of thoughts. It was like packages of internet data going by and I knew a little about each package. Like a deck of cards springing from a hand in a couple of seconds.
  26. Then I had thoughts, while on the floor, that seemed to be from other people and I dismissed the reality of them also. At the time I knew this was similar to what Adya said he experienced when he woke up and I questioned right there whether I was “making this up” and imitating others. I started to doubt what was happening, but I couldn’t deny it. I would have this “you’re faking this” thought and then be overwhelmed with the reality of what was happening. It was as if when I thought the thought that I was faking it someone turned up the dial to make the reality of what was happening overwhelming. 
  27. This having-other-people’s-thoughts was the weirdest part and the part I still don’t understand. Though I’ve always been so materialistically minded (in the metaphysical and epistemological sense) I have told myself I’m open to whatever is really true, even if I goes against what I’ve believed before. Namely, the possibility that “minds” are connected and that thoughts are not specific to individuals. But even while being open to this I find this experience the most difficult to understand / accept.
  28. I laid and sat on the floor a lot. I very seldom do this; I’m usually too concerned with the dirtiness of floors and the lazy attitude it portrays. 
  29. “Oh my god. I really see that I’m not doing any of this! None of it! I can see it. I can see that the thoughts I’ve had about doing anything are on top of the doing! I turn off this light and I see him doing it! He thinks he turns off the lights to save money on energy bills, but that’s just a thought put over an action, an explanation of what he does so he thinks he’s in control.”
  30. “I don’t care about money! Fuck, how weird! How can I not care and worry about money?!”
  31. At this point I felt like I couldn’t think a thought without saying words out loud. I felt like it was impossible to think any thought and not articulate out loud what I was thinking. I had the worry that this wouldn’t end. And when I say “worry” it wasn’t like my normal worrying. It was a thought and a realization that it would seem weird to others.
  32. “Maria, badness. I understand now. See this fire ant bite blister? There is nothing bad with it! I give it all the meaning it has for me. All of it! It itches, sure. But there is nothing wrong with it at all.”
  33. I continued to say out loud everything I consciously thought.

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/24/18 7:41 AM as a reply to Do Not Know.
Wecome! It is a long read but it made me smile throughout. You're a nice and funny fella. emoticon 

I am not enlightened but it seems like you are. I found this one of the clearer descriptions of progress after (self-inquiry) enlightenment and you can use it to self-diagnose perhaps? http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

 All the best!

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/24/18 8:37 AM as a reply to Do Not Know.
Who or what did this experience happen to?

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/24/18 9:15 AM as a reply to Do Not Know.
Sometimes, as if by chance, maybe never at all, the rules no longer check out. The line between what is assumed and what is becomes fuzzy. The mind intuitively knowns deep down that this is the case, but it also likes to create a ruleset with which to cope in a universe that demands survival. One must know how to interact in society, feed oneself, and educate oneself otherwise the organism may die or live an uncomfortable existence. There most certainly isn't anything wrong with an uncomfortable experience, but it goes against our programming to be so. We have been taught that this ruleset is life, but life exists independently of this ruleset. We forget that our ruleset is just stories. We forget that everybody has their own vast pool of beliefs that twist and change to support itself. These beliefs are true in the sense it creates a certain reality, but in every other sense of the word, true or false just doesn't cut it, it just is.

Sometimes, something can affect a belief, so drastic, that it creates a schism within your own collection of beliefs, and no amount of mental mathematics or gymnastics will balance out the instability. Something has got to give, and if the ego mind fails to adapt it's beliefs accordingly, then there is no preventing it's death through transcendent function. For however long, could be milliseconds, could be a lifetime (dependant on the individuals situation and temperament), there is an experience akin to enlightenment. Things are allowed to arise as they are, fully, lovingly, as if it were the day you were born. Words fail to explain as they are made out of thought stuff, and thoughts, not being aware, couldn't possibly understand what is going on, they can merely react in their own way. Almost inevitably, we come back down to our old habits, slightly different, we take some truth and freedom with us.

People on this forum train their minds to be more likely to allow this type of experience, but more importantly, we train our minds not to grab back onto our old ways. In fact, the so perceived pursuit of enlightenment is not supposed to be about this feeling, but it is removing the aspects of ourselves that make this perfectly simple state of mind something other than it is, until there is nothing but this very pure childlike creativity, which fulfulls itself by experiencing the joys and woes of this ultimately magical and ineffable thing we call life.

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/24/18 9:58 AM as a reply to Do Not Know.
Interesting to note that you wouldn't label yourself as enlightened. I feel that bodes well for you. 

However, would you feel comfortable labelling what you've described as enlightenment?

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/24/18 11:49 AM as a reply to Do Not Know.
but the knicks still suck. 


Seriously, this stuff feels so incredibly supernatural and special and important - but it is just your mind seeing through itself.  This is an authentic glimpse into a less delusional reality, now you have to figure out how to just let it be part of your everyday reality and not fetishize the experience or try to get it back.  What happens to many people is that suddenly these insights will be unavailable to them for some reason and despair will arise.  If you treat it as a great day and a deep insight, but just a regular day and a regular insight - like knowing that tide is cheaper at wal-mart than whole foods - then it will be easier to live happier because of it.  

Everyone here will be happy to help if you have questions or run into any bumps in the road. 

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/25/18 5:36 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Hi Yilun. Thanks much for your note. I think if I were enlightened I wouldn't have experienced a little pride from your commenting on my being nice and funny! :-) What's left of my ego likes attention and compliments.
Of course, I most often doubt there is something called enlightenment. Much of my experience doesn't believe anything and doesn't know anything...so then I don't think there can be something called enlightenment and at the same time that makes me seem enlightened. So much paradox to my experiences these days! 
Take care

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/25/18 5:49 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Hi Chris. If there is anything I can attribute to the experience it is questions like you asked. I'm very familiar with nondual inquiry questions. Again, the experience seemed so completely out of my control that I can't say the inquiry "caused" it, but I was doing a fair amount of questioning the week or two prior like: "What is worried about X problem right now?" "Who is taking this walk?" "Where do I stop? Do I know that I am not that bird I hear? Do I have evidence of a me? What it is?"

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/25/18 6:02 AM as a reply to DeNada.
Hi DeNada. Yes, I agree not grabbing onto the expereince is "good." That evening when things had calmed down quite a bit  I told my wife "that was a taste" and "it isn't the end." But there is no doubt, in some ways, I'm completely different now. 
That is an excellent question about whether I think that was enlightenment. I guess if pushed I don't think there is enlightenment. From my enlightened perspective (oh the paradoxes I live with now) I actually know there is no such thing. From a normal, egoic perspective, I don't feel knowledgeble in such matters to really say what it was and that's why I'm looking for labels on this forum. In the interviews I've heard with Daniel Ingram he seems to be really into taxonomies of experience. 
Only a ego wants enlightenment and my ego doesn't want to suffer and thinks the only way to not suffer it is to extinguish itself. So I guess that is what I think enlightenment is and for those couple hours it was impossible to suffer. So I guess my ego thinks that was enlightenment.

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/25/18 6:45 AM as a reply to seth tapper.
Hi Seth. Good thoughts and that is mostly what I've thought about the situation afterward. There is no denying I wanted the full experience back days or weeks after, but most of the time afterward I see it was just another experience. And what I really, really know is I have no way to make it happen again. Or there might be ways I can make it happen, through types of meditation for example, but if that is true then why pursue it? I don't have much need to pursue anything these days. It all seems so useless. And I've been left with a very strong sense that I don't really do anything, control anything, so I wouldn't be making it happen anyway. 

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/26/18 2:11 AM as a reply to Do Not Know.
You are going to get a lot more help with your question from the rest of the folks than from me! May I throw a question back at you? Can you let us know the specifics of your self-inquiry practice? How long has it been going on, the intensity, hours a day meditating on it or just walk about practice? If you did it in 1-2 weeks, your practice will interest a lot of people haha!

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/26/18 5:01 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Hi, great to read about your experience.

Been seeking that for a long time.

It´s great to know it can happen, anytime anywhere. emoticon

May i ask:

1) Is seeking gone?

2) Is fear of death gone?

3) Did your relationship to your body changed in any way?

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/26/18 9:22 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Hi Yilun. I deeply and consistently think my experience on 9-29-17, what I call, "The Big," happened without *my* involvement whatsoever. I just have a very hard time believing I made it happen. And I wasn’t attempting to put myself in some special state (i.e., wasn't meditating or even trying to do some type of inquiry.)  There are a few explanations I explore below. Let’s call these “reasons why it happened at that time and to me instead of someone else.” 
  1. Listening to TCIM – I had been listening to the lessons section of The Course in Miracles a lot before this happened. I wasn’t actually doing the lessons each day sequentially as is recommended. I would just keep listening to the same lessons until I felt like I got them and then I’d listen to later lessons. Repeat. The echoes of my very materialist minded ego cause the slightest shudder to admitting something with “Miracles” in the title could have been a big influence. :-)
  2. Doing The Work on thoughts about my selfhood – I do remember doing Byron Katie's practice, The Work, on thoughts such as “I am an individual person that can suffer” and “I exist as a person in time and space” the couple weeks before this happened. This is much more direct inquiry than what Katie and students normally do. They usually focus on thoughts that cause stress; about family, work, money, friends, etc. So I was questioning beliefs that keep the ego together. Maybe I questioned them enough that for a while I didn’t believe them at all. Likely cause if there is one.
    This is definitely the explanation an ego can grab onto and even make into a teaching to spread. “I have the answer! Don’t just question any thoughts that cause you distress (i.e., The Work from Byron Katie), go straight for the thoughts that hold the ego, the self together. Question those thoughts for a quick path to freedom!” That is how gurus are made.
  3. Just a random brain event – This is completely compatible with the other explanations. I think consciousness is super spooky in many ways, but there is so much evidence of the connections between consciousness and the brain that I think something very different and unusual was happening in my brain when I was having that very different and unusual experience. Of course, it might be that there is some very small change in the brain that causes such a big difference in experience. See Doors of Perception. I would have jumped at the chance if someone would have offered to put me in a FMRI machine. 
  4. Something outside of me – yes, though I think this sounds crazy. The event had the feeling that someone or something made this experience happen and even turned up the volume when I started to doubt it was real. I remember feeling like I was thrown backward on the floor when I started to doubt the experience was real. Like someone was saying, “Oh, so you don’t think this isn't real, do you!?” and then they cranked up the dial to prove it to me. Don’t think this is the case as my experience showed me there really isn’t someone or something out there separate from me. Then again, maybe it can be just a thought or a movement that isn’t really separate from me, but at the same time can affect the “me” thoughts. Weird, weird thought.
If someone wants to insist I give one "practice" I'd pick #2 above.

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/26/18 9:18 PM as a reply to alguidar.
Hi Alguidar. Answers to your questions below:

  1. Yes and no. Yes, in that what's left of my ego is seeking to find out what happened. No, in that I deeply and consistenly feel my life is kind of over. There is nothing to find. There is no secret. There is nothing anyone has that I don't and no experience means anything. I've never felt so much meaninglessness, but it doesn't depress me. This does NOT mean I'm happy all the time. I think there is a lot of stuff that can still drop away. I am still attached to a few things, wife and kids being the obvious ones.
  2. Sorry, I literally laughed out loud (though quietly) with this one. I haven't feared death for I don't know how long. It is fear of life, the "slings and arrows," that completely left me during that experience and that I have a lot less of now...but still some, and the amount ebbs and flows. I know teachers (like one of my favorites, Jed McKenna) say things like fear of non-existence is the core fear. I probably don't know what I really fear or want (who does?), but I've looked very hard and I've only seen the desire for non-existense. That was the funniest thing about that experience (what I call "The Big"): I had an overwhelming sense of being okay with living forever and that was unusual for me. 
  3. What a great question! Yes, I got constipated because I stopped being a control freak about what I ate and upped by white carb intake quite a bit! Love me some biscuits! I was also much more amorous immediately following (barriers were down) and now have become less amorous as I've started to more clearly see the crazy desires evolution unfortunately burdened us with. :-)
    ...and the usual abilities to notice a lot more happening in my body. I can also kill a fly with my bare hands much easier than before. Seriously! I guess I'm just quieter and not as distracted...still a generally distracted person. 

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/27/18 2:13 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
aloha,

   It seems that you have a lot of clues.

   It is significant that you refer to your "experience" in the past tense.

   My own experience was not dissimilar. I think the most important thing is how much it changes your life to conform with what you now know. It is for you to have faith in what you know and live the life.

   There are more insights, or they can deepen. Time is not what you thought it was (kind of loopy, actually; come to my dogen thread if you want to talk about real time). This "enlightenment experience" (neither enlightenment nor experience, actually) is now central to your existence, time-wise. All of your life becomes before and after. In fact it is all one time, One Great Pearl, trans-spatial, trans-temporal. With its center at This Moment of profound insight.

   Resist reverting to the old, ignorant ways. Implement your new insights in original ways.

   I have to laugh at this advising, because you know and I know that you are completely in the grip of forces beyond any control. It's a roller coaster where sometimes we grow very attached to what we love and suffer for it and feel disgrace, while sometimes we are very free and totally locked into the grace of all nature. There is the paradox of the immediacy and utter profundity of the insight and the prosaic return to daily life, like putting the groceries in the trunk. I don't really think you need an ego around to put the groceries in the trunk, that is the ego's main trick, to convince you it is necessary or life just can't go on and you'll end up in the state hospital getting electro-shock therapy from nurse ratched. The ego is fear, and you know as acim has it that "nothing real can be threatened." 

   To the extent that these conversion experiences may be called "enlightenment," it seems that those who have them never forget the nondual truth, no matter how low they may sink otherwise.  It is thus "instantaneous enlightenment." Once we have tasted nonduality, becoming a buddha is a gradual process of unfolding, like a flower (zen mind) from a bud (beginner's mind).

   Amazing Grace, god love us. Thanks for sharing. Obviously no one can advise you, since you are pretty much clued. Horin said to rinzai, "master, may I ask a question?" Rinzai replied, "Why gouge out healthy flesh and make a wound?" It is for you to press on and not bask in delight at your "attainment" or seek advice from folks who really know no more than you, and couldn't tell you if they did. I know we are all happy to be your companions on this ride. We all slip and fall regularly, those of us who have "glimpsed." Spiritual pride and spiritual materialism, well, keep your eyes open, be wise as a serpent and mild as a dove. 

a brother in spirit,
terry



"Hat in the sky,
sandals on the ground,
straw raincoat flown afar,
my body
the only memento.”

~ryokan



"MELON
 
"I scoop and eat,
tear and eat,
break and eat,
then afterward
I keep it near my mouth.”

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/27/18 5:25 AM as a reply to Do Not Know.
Hey, thanks for the answers,

A Course in Miracles is uncompromising non-duallity. emoticon

"There is no world" ; " This is the central thought the course attempts to teach"
Lesson 132


Is there a particular teaching and/or teacher you are feeling drawn to, after your september experience?

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/27/18 6:01 AM as a reply to alguidar.
Hi Alguidar. Adyashanti has great material for someone in my situation. I've listened to a number of his YouTube videos that focus on pointers to how to be after a major opening / shift. I also think the person left of Adya has his head on straight. He's a nice guy.

Should also mention that reason I came to this site is that I've listened to a few interviews with Daniel Ingram and think the same of him: sweet and sincere guy trying to help. Frankly don't think I'll ever be following any "maps" and ticking off "attainments" (who knows!) but any practice is good practice, even no apparent practice, so fully support those steps!

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/27/18 10:54 AM as a reply to Do Not Know.
Do Not Know:
Should also mention that reason I came to this site is that I've listened to a few interviews with Daniel Ingram and think the same of him: sweet and sincere guy trying to help. Frankly don't think I'll ever be following any "maps" and ticking off "attainments" (who knows!) but any practice is good practice, even no apparent practice, so fully support those steps!
If you have had the insight/satori/awakening you seem to have had, you will find that the "practices" will find YOU. You won't need to figure out what to do. I would only recommend you explore meditation if you haven't before, and consider retreats. The mind in meditation and enlightened MIND are one and the same, it's just a question of how deeply you see into it. If you like Adyashanti, I would go ahead and try some of his guided meditation as a means to explore, then perhaps work with his method of meditation on your own. It's pretty much a variation on zazen as I recall. 

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/27/18 11:17 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
aloha,

   It seems that you have a lot of clues.

   It is significant that you refer to your "experience" in the past tense.

   My own experience was not dissimilar. I think the most important thing is how much it changes your life to conform with what you now know. It is for you to have faith in what you know and live the life.

   There are more insights, or they can deepen. Time is not what you thought it was (kind of loopy, actually; come to my dogen thread if you want to talk about real time). This "enlightenment experience" (neither enlightenment nor experience, actually) is now central to your existence, time-wise. All of your life becomes before and after. In fact it is all one time, One Great Pearl, trans-spatial, trans-temporal. With its center at This Moment of profound insight.

   Resist reverting to the old, ignorant ways. Implement your new insights in original ways.

   I have to laugh at this advising, because you know and I know that you are completely in the grip of forces beyond any control. It's a roller coaster where sometimes we grow very attached to what we love and suffer for it and feel disgrace, while sometimes we are very free and totally locked into the grace of all nature. There is the paradox of the immediacy and utter profundity of the insight and the prosaic return to daily life, like putting the groceries in the trunk. I don't really think you need an ego around to put the groceries in the trunk, that is the ego's main trick, to convince you it is necessary or life just can't go on and you'll end up in the state hospital getting electro-shock therapy from nurse ratched. The ego is fear, and you know as acim has it that "nothing real can be threatened." 

   To the extent that these conversion experiences may be called "enlightenment," it seems that those who have them never forget the nondual truth, no matter how low they may sink otherwise.  It is thus "instantaneous enlightenment." Once we have tasted nonduality, becoming a buddha is a gradual process of unfolding, like a flower (zen mind) from a bud (beginner's mind).

   Amazing Grace, god love us. Thanks for sharing. Obviously no one can advise you, since you are pretty much clued. Horin said to rinzai, "master, may I ask a question?" Rinzai replied, "Why gouge out healthy flesh and make a wound?" It is for you to press on and not bask in delight at your "attainment" or seek advice from folks who really know no more than you, and couldn't tell you if they did. I know we are all happy to be your companions on this ride. We all slip and fall regularly, those of us who have "glimpsed." Spiritual pride and spiritual materialism, well, keep your eyes open, be wise as a serpent and mild as a dove. 

a brother in spirit,
terry



"Hat in the sky,
sandals on the ground,
straw raincoat flown afar,
my body
the only memento.”

~ryokan



"MELON
 
"I scoop and eat,
tear and eat,
break and eat,
then afterward
I keep it near my mouth.”

this of course was meant to be a reply to do not know... and the last poem was also written by ryokan...

brother terry

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/27/18 4:05 PM as a reply to Do Not Know.
The mind that was amorous is freer than the mind that isnt.  When let loose - we want to fuck, to love, to know and to be with God.  Everything else is a neurotic worry.   When absolutely free we see that there is no one else to fuck, love, know or be with and each desire is satisfied with out an object. 

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/27/18 8:51 PM as a reply to terry.
Hey Terry. Thanks for the wise advice! I for sure feel like I am "completely in the grip of forces beyond any control."

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/27/18 8:53 PM as a reply to seth tapper.
Thanks Seth. Well said.

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/27/18 8:59 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Yes, Sterling. Good points. I didn't meditate in traditional sense much before because it is hard and I am lazy, but after afternoon I described I've meditated a little more and found it much easier to do. I still exercise so why should I oppose exercising my mind with meditation? Even if I don't think it brings freedom, it clearly has many benefits. Having time right now is a problem with my current family and job. We'll see...

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/28/18 4:36 AM as a reply to Do Not Know.
After a certain point, you would sacrifice sleep to meditate because it actually frees up more time. Just do it! emoticon

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/28/18 6:29 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yilun Ong:
After a certain point, you would sacrifice sleep to meditate because it actually frees up more time. Just do it! emoticon


that is my approach to meditation.

i pretty much don´t know what the f*** im doing but i

just do it.

sucks being a beginner. lol

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/28/18 5:44 PM as a reply to seth tapper.
seth tapper:
The mind that was amorous is freer than the mind that isnt.  When let loose - we want to fuck, to love, to know and to be with God.  Everything else is a neurotic worry.   When absolutely free we see that there is no one else to fuck, love, know or be with and each desire is satisfied with out an object. 

aloha seth,

   I suppose there is a certain equation between "knowing" and "fucking", at least in the biblical sense. I don't think that "amorous"-ness is necessarily a consequence of liberation. But as you noted, desire may be satisfied without an object. I would add the caveat that, if an appropriate "object" of one's amorousnss is not available, the desire does not arise in the mind grounded in the present.

   When desire has lost its object and yet remains, liberation involves finding the satisfaction of the desire in emptiness. These prosaic words are only intended to introduce one of my favorite poems, a great poet writing about my favorite woman in history (barring only joan of arc, the youngest commander ever of a national army). In english from a german original, but what a poet, what a poem... among other highlights, lou was the only woman nietzsche ever wanted to marry, and became an intimate of freud...



terry

(fucking is pretty much the least of it, eh? probably a pretty good screw, and then some...eros/agape/philia/storge all greatly enhanced)



To Lou Andreas-Salome
(rainer maria rilke)

I held myself too open, I forgot
that outside not just things exist and animals
fully at ease in themselves, whose eyes
reach from their lives' roundedness no differently
than portraits do from frames; forgot that I
with all I did incessantly crammed
looks into myself; looks, opinion, curiosity.
Who knows: perhaps eyes form in space
and look on everywhere. Ah, only plunged toward you
does my face cease being on display, grows
into you and twines on darkly, endlessly,
into your sheltered heart.

As one puts a handkerchief before pent-in-breath-
no: as one presses it against a wound
out of which the whole of life, in a single gush,
wants to stream, I held you to me: I saw you 
turn red from me. How could anyone express
what took place between us? We made up for everything
there was never time for. I matured strangely
in every impulse of unperformed youth,
and you, love, had wildest childhood over my heart.

Memory won't suffice here: from those moments
there must be layers of pure existence
on my being's floor, a precipitate
from that immensely overfilled solution.

For I don't think back; all that I am
stirs me because of you. I don't invent you
at sadly cooled-off places from which
you've gone away; even your not being there
is warm with you and more real and more
than a privation. Longing leads out too often
into vagueness. Why should I cast myself, when,
for all I know, your influence falls on me,
gently, like moonlight on a window seat.

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
2/28/18 6:39 PM as a reply to Do Not Know.
Do Not Know:
Hey Terry. Thanks for the wise advice! I for sure feel like I am "completely in the grip of forces beyond any control."

aloha dnk,

   It might be wise to become comfortable with that condition. Alan watts calls it 'the wisdom of insecurity.' Spirit is like water: a spring goes on its way tentatively, stopping and filling in the deep places before moving on, taking any plunge without shrinking, placid and turbulent depending on conditions, becoming greater and greater until it reaches the infinitely greater Ocean. Rising in rain once again and repeating the hydraulic (samsaric) cycle.

   No advice bra, just hanging out. You can't tell a flower how to grow, only give them sunshine, water, perhaps some manure from time to time. Too much sun, too much rain, too much wind or manure and the young plant is damaged. Take whatever nutrients seem good to you and you will make your way just fine. As the buddha would say when the dhamm was done being preached, "now is the time for you to do as you please."

   I'm reminded me of a story, if I can find it...

I couldn't find it: it was an andrew cohen story about eating berries. He said to only eat ripe, fresh berries, avoid rotten and green berries and never eat too much. Sounds like advice, the way I put it...anyhow, I did run across a bit while searching that may be more relevant:

(from 'enlightenment is a secret' by andrew cohen, 1991, p202)


"Deep Experiences are Not Enough
(andrew cohen)

   "Spritual experiences should serve as a catalyst for change that affects every aspect of the personality. Unless change occurs spiritual experiences are worthless. Among seekers deep experiences are quite common, but deep experiences are not enough; because people can realize absolutely everything and still not change at all.

   "When there has been Realization and profound revelation can a person live up to that which has been revealed? Can a person live up to that ecstasy in every aspect of their life? Most cannot.

   "The gift of Grace is free. But can a person honor it totally and completely? That's very different. That's when a great sacrifice comes in."


   Churchill once commented (something like): "Everyone stumbles across the truth at some time in their lives, but most people just pick themselves up and carry on as usual."

   Lastly, let me earnestly recommend you take sitting in meditation seriously. It doesn't take much regular practice to realize its importance. Without practice, the "six dusts" (mind and senses) will so obscure the truth that it will become dimmer and dimmer, instead of brighter and brighter.  
   
   And let your light shine! Beginner's mind is pure and fresh and full of promise, fragrance and delight.

terry

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
3/1/18 10:11 PM as a reply to Do Not Know.
[Do Not Know]
“Being at one with all isn’t like what they say or like what I thought it would be. It isn’t that I’m one with everything. It is that there just isn’t anything between us. There isn’t an “I” standing in the way. When I look at the trees I just see it all as one picture, moving in front of me.”

Hi.  Is this non-dual perception mode constant for you, or was it temporary?  When you were looking at the trees, did you know them as "trees?"

I had a weird experience while driving on the interstate last year where my perception shifted temporarily, and I've been wondering if it was a glimpse into non-duality or not.  I was just driving along when things changed.  Suddenly, I was totally missing from the equation.  There was just awareness.  When I looked down at my hands on the steering wheel, it was all just one thing, with no separation into "hands" or "steering wheel" or anything else.  There was also no comprehension of what I was aware of, so to speak.  Does this sound familiar to you at all? 

For me, at some point there was awareness that I was missing.  I returned and clung tightly to the notion that I had to conscously direct attention, and that if I didn't do a good job then the body wouldn't be able to drive properly.  For the rest of the drive, my eyes were comically wide and glued to the road.


[Do Not Know]
"This having-other-people’s-thoughts was the weirdest part and the part I still don’t understand. Though I’ve always been so materialistically minded (in the metaphysical and epistemological sense) I have told myself I’m open to whatever is really true, even if I goes against what I’ve believed before. Namely, the possibility that “minds” are connected and that thoughts are not specific to individuals. But even while being open to this I find this experience the most difficult to understand / accept."

Just curious, were you able to verify with your wife or anyone else that the thoughts were actually theirs?  I also come from a materialistic background and now find this stuff extremely interesting.

Man, that must have been one hell of an espresso!

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
3/3/18 8:33 PM as a reply to dave m.
No, the non-dual perception mode has not lasted. Well, I don't really know. Part of it is still there, but not as strong and I'm not shocked by it so I'm even if it were as strong I don't know if I'd have the same feeling I did that day. As I looked at the trees I still had the concept of tree, there just wasn't separation from them or all of it. "Oneness" was not an overwhelming feeling / knowledge like the other three aspects I mentioned (i.e., perfection of all, love for everyone, and seeing through the illusion of control). 

I'm not an expert in these matters, but your experience sounds like a no-self experience. I tried to describe what I said (mostly) and thought (some) in the apparent no-self afternoon because describing "it" is impossible. You'll notice that I was so baffled by what was happening; I kept saying "this is so weird"! And it was! It was like nothing I'd ever experienced before. Nothing. 

I resonate a lot with your second paragraph. Later in the afternoon I had to focus hard to try and send an IM to a co-worker. Being normal was very difficult. I think I rushed getting back to normal. There was still some lingering belief that I needed to quickly accept the weirdness and get on with normal life. I think this is because I'd already heard so much about experiences coming and going (mostly from Adyashanti).

Regarding the part I described that *seemed* like I was experiencing the thoughts of others: this wasn't that clear. It seemed very real, but not clear. It was as if my thoughts were mixed up or part of a thought pool or thought stream. They weren't really personal thoughts and I didn't have the feeling I knew any of the "people" I was somehow connecting to the thoughts of. And though I didn't think I had any control, I felt as if I was dismissing the unreality of beliefs I and other people had. Can't say much more than what I wrote. There was a moment when I thought I experienced a feeling my wife was having, but it was super fast and I'm not too sure of it. 

Yep, after this experience I'm much more open to reality being quite different than I used to think!

Yes, the espresso! No one has yet asked, "Do you think it was laced with something?" I've wondered this because the experience was so out of the blue. But I'm pretty sure the one person working in the grocery store Starbucks was far from being a "merry prankster." I did shrooms eons ago and it wasn't like this at all. I also have had single shots of expresso hundreds of times and have a fairly sensitive palette so would probably know if there was something in there...not sure...just don't know much about the tastes of psychedelics. I've had a long interest in understanding psychodelics though I've only done them that once (shrooms) so I heard many descriptions of many different types of trips. This experience seemed most like MDMA, but I think the onset was quicker and duration shorter.

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
3/4/18 12:58 PM as a reply to Do Not Know.
I really would not open your mind to reality being different than you thought it was.  In my opinion, grounding yourself in an everyday reality that you have no doubts about will allow you to let go more than having an open mind. 

Magik and other stuff may or may not be real, but who cares?  The path to maintaining the state of mind you visited is to stop fabricating meaning where there is none.  This mundane reality with Trump, Tulips and Tiramisu is objectively meaningless and thus objectively perfect as it is.   If you make up other meaningless realities, you have to prove to yourself that each one is really meaningless before you can let it go.  

Does that make any sense to you ? 

RE: Clueless, pretty much
Answer
3/10/18 5:39 AM as a reply to seth tapper.
Hi Seth. Yes, makes total sense. Thanks!