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Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/6/18 7:09 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Yilun Ong 3/6/18 6:26 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/6/18 7:09 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Yilun Ong 3/6/18 7:48 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/6/18 7:56 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Yilun Ong 3/7/18 5:24 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Bruno Loff 3/7/18 11:41 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Yilun Ong 3/7/18 9:47 PM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/8/18 9:06 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Bruno Loff 3/8/18 1:31 PM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/9/18 1:47 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Yilun Ong 3/8/18 9:51 PM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/9/18 1:57 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Yilun Ong 3/9/18 3:18 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/9/18 10:37 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture alguidar 3/9/18 5:59 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/9/18 11:09 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/9/18 11:14 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/11/18 12:06 PM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Yilun Ong 3/11/18 2:19 PM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/11/18 2:51 PM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Yilun Ong 3/11/18 3:22 PM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/13/18 1:48 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Yilun Ong 3/13/18 2:01 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/13/18 7:46 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/13/18 2:14 PM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Bigbird 3/13/18 3:53 AM
RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture Henri 3/13/18 4:53 AM
Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/6/18 7:09 AM
Heya,

I'm new here. I'm completely new to the pure concentration states. For the last 12 or so years, I've been mostly doing insight practice but without the mental noting. In other words, I've been observing, and letting things pass.

I've spent the last 4-5 years in the dark night, and I'm now tasting equanimity. I have no idea if I'm on my way to stream entry, or if I'm going for 2nd path, since I've been "exploring" myself for most of my life (15-16 years). I did have a period last month where many habits of irritation, anger, suddenly dropped away, and I was smiling for a week or so.

I've been so uninterested in my internal experience that I have never paid much attention to what's happening visually or in my body. I've just broadly let it all be. But now there's interest to explore.

So on to my question: I did a short 30min meditation sit. I started by counting my breath, and then I go into noting everything I noticed from more general (feel, see, hear, thinking) to specific (pulsating, shimmering, spreading, tense, planning, grasping, confusion).

Toward the end, I visually got a sense of space. As I noted the shifting, space, awareness, it collapsed into me. I then noted the feelings in the middle and around my head. As I kept doing that, my eyes turned upward and started fluttering. I kept noting (achievement, pride, fear, shimmering, fluttering, tension (in neck)).

There was also difficulty swallowing, and a kind of rapture running from below the spin upwards.

I was in a very calm state prior to meditation, and as I write this I feel calm again with some high Hz after-effects from the rapture which I can sense some agitation in.

I don't have trouble sitting still. I can easily sit for long periods of time (sat 90min yesterday). I just keep noting anything that comes up. Only thing is that my neck is stiff after. Neck isn't stiff otherwise, only when I meditate and a while after that.

My guess is that I'm cycling through some of the Jhana's/A&P/EQ? Any thoughts or ideas?

Thanks!

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/6/18 6:26 AM as a reply to Henri.
Dharma diagnostics is like an interpolation game of filling in the blanks. What you experienced could be anything, even a cessation/fruition? If you keep going and it repeats itself convincingly a few times (see MCTemoticon, congratulations!

Even if it doesn't, practice or clearing fruition is a formula of dropping effort. You are in a perfect equanimous state of not wanting anything. Everything is fine as it is. With these 'letting go', the self drops away, a strange senseless stray thought pops up (~80% of the time for me) and you enjoy the fruits of your meditative journey thus far. Noting isn't something that is helpful if you are in High EQ, but that is just IME.

TMI Stage 8 or Shinzen Young's Do Nothing - are IMO great stuff to understand how to game this fruition thingy. 

Welcome and all the best! emoticon

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/6/18 7:09 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Right you are, Yilun. And thank you for the reply.

Seems the best way is to keep exploring and seeing what happens, while glancing at the maps, as long as they are helpful.

Could you elaborate on your experience in High EQ? Am I guessing correctly that you prefer Shinzen's Do Nothing approach during this time?

I'll check out TMI Stage 8. Haven't heard of it before.

Thanks for taking the time to share emoticon

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/6/18 7:48 AM as a reply to Henri.
Henri - I am quoting them because there are intellectual minds who would want to game it. My true suggestion is to take a look at how simple and profound Anapanasati is. After going through what-is-necessary of the 15 steps, one has to reach the last - Relinquishment. Now how to best do that, must come naturally to you. I find it best to simply let awareness surf as it likes, not clinging/averse, be patiently equanimous to every moment, let go of effort to power my concentration to the point of being okay with it dropping, having faith in my practice and for a lack of a better word: Let Go

Let go of the fear of losing concentration or what people like to call 'bad meditation' AND the desire of attainment. You need to be in a moment of perfection (not wanting anything) to reach perfection, the paradox of it - I hope that helps! emoticon

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/6/18 7:56 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
It does. Thank you. I will see what happens ;)

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/7/18 5:24 AM as a reply to Henri.
Not sure if this is illegal to copy so much of a book (TMI) but this could be useful to you, Henri:
A cessation event is where unconscious sub-minds remain tuned in and receptive to the contents of consciousness, while at the same time, none of them project any content into consciousness. Then, consciousness ceases—completely. During that period, at the level of consciousness there is a complete cessation of mental fabrications of any kind—of the illusory, mind-generated world that otherwise dominates every conscious moment. This, of course, also entails a complete cessation of craving, intention, and suffering. The only information that tuned in sub-minds receive during this event is the fact of a total absence.

What makes this the most powerful of all Insight experiences is what happens in the last few moments of consciousness leading up to the cessation. First, an object arises in consciousness that would normally produce craving. It can be almost anything. However, what happens next is quite unusual: the mind doesn’t respond with the habitual craving and clinging. Rather, it fully understands the object from the perspective of Insight: as a mental construct, completely “empty” of any real substance, impermanent, and a cause of suffering. This profound realization leads to the next and final moment of complete equanimity, in which the shared intention of all the unified sub-minds is to not respond


Stuff in bold is very true in my humble experience <- To put it simply, the mind doesn't give 2 f's. It oddly feels like a retrospective loss of concentration, I am pretty certain that at the moment when it happens, things were simply fine and dandy. On looking back, it is hard to remember or make sense of that unknown event.

Good Luck! emoticon

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/7/18 11:41 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Before some of my cessation events, there is a moment when the mind just drifts a bit, completely out of control. It's weird because I had been putting so much into the practice, then there is a moment when the mind seems a bit distracted, even, and then *bam* something relaxes, connects, current goes through, cessation event.

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/7/18 9:47 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
That is a better explanation emoticon

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/8/18 9:06 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Thank you Yilun and Bruno. All of that is helpful emoticon

Since my first post, I seemed to cycle through ñanas 5-11. Yesterday I went through something like re-observation where I was exhausted and thoughts like "I can't do this" popped up.

Today, more equanimity and relief. And in today's meditation, I had a similar thing happen as in my original post.

I began by observing my breath, did some noting, and eventually my focus seemed to focus in on mental formations. I noticed them arising and passing, and this process became faster and shorter, until it ceased to happen.

This then lead to a fast progression of events where everything seemed to go up in smoke. While this was happening, I again had the same energy going on in my spine with eyes doing the same thing.

Everything around me went up in smoke, and eventually I went up in smoke. The energy/current seemed to intensify at this moment and reached a crescendo. After that, I don't know if I had a cessation event, but things calmed down, I felt a relaxed bliss and equanimity envelop me.

There may have been a blip, but I'm not going to say that with certainty as I could be making it up.

Thought I'd share, just in case someone is interested.

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/8/18 1:31 PM as a reply to Henri.
This could be it. It might be worth trying to practice more intensely for a few weeks to really try and replicate what you just described quite a few times, and see if you can do that.

Also, if you just got first path, then I would expect it to be very energetically intense, with lots of energetic-like phenomena and so on. A&P of 1st path was really intense and overwhelming for me, so if you get into that kind of territory I have some tips for grounding the energy.

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/8/18 9:51 PM as a reply to Henri.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Everything around me went up in smoke, and eventually I went up in smoke. The energy/current seemed to intensify at this moment and reached a crescendo. After that, I don't know if I had a cessation event, but things calmed down, I felt a relaxed bliss and equanimity envelop me.
What was the insight into that? Isn't that place wonderful? I would drop all concerns especially if it smells of suffering around attainments at this point. If you wanna have any desire, let it be to keep repeating this experience. Definitely worth it, at least until stuff shows up and tells you there is more to work on. But till then, you have just learned something really valuable, so be happy... emoticon

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/9/18 1:47 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
This could be it. It might be worth trying to practice more intensely for a few weeks to really try and replicate what you just described quite a few times, and see if you can do that.

Also, if you just got first path, then I would expect it to be very energetically intense, with lots of energetic-like phenomena and so on. A&P of 1st path was really intense and overwhelming for me, so if you get into that kind of territory I have some tips for grounding the energy.
I'm practicing 2-4 hours a day right now, so I'll do that. I remember Daniel writing that if it's a fruition it will naturally cycle, so time will tell. If I run into intense energy, I'll let you know. Thanks for the offer emoticon

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/9/18 1:57 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yilun Ong:
CONGRATULATIONS!
What was the insight into that?
Reflecting on it, it's hard to put into words, but I can certainly feel a difference. Things that used to bother me, bother me less. I feel very calm. Also, cycling through ñanas 5-10 is much less troublesome, as I can let it be, and be curious. 

Isn't that place wonderful?
Oh yes. Quite pleasant. Quite pleasant indeed emoticon

I would drop all concerns especially if it smells of suffering around attainments at this point. If you wanna have any desire, let it be to keep repeating this experience. Definitely worth it, at least until stuff shows up and tells you there is more to work on. But till then, you have just learned something really valuable, so be happy... emoticon
Could you elaborate on this part?

I feel like I don't care much for attaining anything. Even trying to repeat what happened doesn't appeal much. I'll meditate and if it happens, it happens.

Thanks again. Appreciate the back and forth, Bruno and Yilun.

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/9/18 3:18 AM as a reply to Henri.
Could you elaborate on this part?

Ignore it and can you just try one thing? Resolve in your next sit (forget about it when you sit) to have a fruition and tell us what happens. emoticon

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/9/18 5:59 AM as a reply to Henri.
hello henri, great to read your report!

do you do any practice during your workday/commuting/cooking etc?

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/9/18 10:37 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yilun Ong:

Ignore it and can you just try one thing? Resolve in your next sit (forget about it when you sit) to have a fruition and tell us what happens. emoticon
I just did a 60min + 60min sit. It didn't build up to full intensity, but at the end there was again energy building up and the same things happening. I'll report back what happens during the coming days/weeks.

Update: I did another 30-40min sit and found myself paying close attention to sensations and knowing. Eventually it all started to flip back and forth really fast, and then the energy current made an appearance. It wasn't as intense this time. Didn't notice a blip or cessation. Head feels a bit weird after. No bliss wave.

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/9/18 11:09 AM as a reply to alguidar.
alguidar:
hello henri, great to read your report!

do you do any practice during your workday/commuting/cooking etc?
Heya,

I'm mostly aware during most of the day. Meaning, I might just be aware of my body, or my breath. Lately I've added in noting while doing things such as cooking, walking. I don't try to make myself practice during the day. It seems to happen spontaneously. For example, as I'm writing this, I'm aware of my fingers, of the sound of the computer, and so on.

Does that help?

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/9/18 11:14 AM as a reply to Henri.
Found this journal from Chris Marti: http://awakenetwork.org/magazine/cmarti/70

He chronicles his experiences from stream entry and onwards. I found it helpful.

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/11/18 12:06 PM as a reply to Henri.
I keep getting the energy current / whoosh, and the fluttering/strobing. 

Today I went through some of the Jhanas to build concentration, then started inquiring "Who is hearing?" as the freezer and washer made sounds. Eventually it felt like the sounds from the freezer were in me, and the thought/feeling popped up "The hearing is happening where the sound originates" and I felt a kind of drop, disorientation/reversal, and then the current, fluttering, strobing.

Now writing this an hour or so after, my head feels like it's been through the wringer, a bit numb, and still pulsing a bit.

So with this, I just realized that before the energy current, there may have been a restart/cessation, but that's a guess. I'm going to start paying attention to what happens before the energy current / whoosh.

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/11/18 2:19 PM as a reply to Henri.
Henri - I am taking what you are saying as raptures/symptoms going on off-the-cushion? Some would say that it is another indication of post-stream-entry. Others would say you are overloaded. Only you can find out the truth. See if they change and if you can see the background of the jhanas or insight cycling in them. Continue to resolve for fruition but drop desire in meditation. Whatever it is, this is progress...

With Love,
Your friend

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/11/18 2:51 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
I do have some activity off-the-cushion. I have had a few whooshes just sitting and reading or being at the computer. I feel this energy, I close my eyes, and breath goes out, and then whoosh.

If I am overloaded, is the prescription to back off of meditation a bit? I often take each day as it comes, so I'll sit if I feel drawn to it.

Thanks again for the support and sharing, Yilun. It is much appreciated.

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/11/18 3:22 PM as a reply to Henri.
Questioning is the start and end. Desire - ends there...

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/13/18 1:48 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yesterday I did some "sitting" lying down on the bed. Almost immediately when I started, I felt the energy pulse/vibrate in my neck and along my spine. After awhile, on the out-breath, I felt a drop and a blip. The blip almost felt like holding in a sneeze / being squeezed out from the inside.

After that, the energy whoosh up the spine. I tried to relax into the whoosh more, so no fluttering eyelids this time, or the same intensity.

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/13/18 2:01 AM as a reply to Henri.
I would really try being skillful with my mini-resolution making before meditation (henceforth). What is it from your desires that you can shape to a form of knowing that holds Right Intentions that will power the session towards what you wish to understand? It is powerful to use this, do try it and it could save you from a lot of senseless striving. All the best, you probably can sense that some things are different but you cannot put a finger on it? 

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/13/18 3:53 AM as a reply to Henri.
Hi Henri.

Your not showing signs of overload or frying at the moment. If it did happen then you would back off a bit, or a lot depending on the situation. 

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/13/18 4:53 AM as a reply to Bigbird.
Bigbird:
Hi Henri.

Your not showing signs of overload or frying at the moment. If it did happen then you would back off a bit, or a lot depending on the situation. 
Thanks for the feedback. I felt better the next day, so could've been something unrelated as well.

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/13/18 7:46 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yilun Ong:
I would really try being skillful with my mini-resolution making before meditation (henceforth). What is it from your desires that you can shape to a form of knowing that holds Right Intentions that will power the session towards what you wish to understand? It is powerful to use this, do try it and it could save you from a lot of senseless striving. All the best, you probably can sense that some things are different but you cannot put a finger on it? 
I do sense a calmness, and some patterns/irritation/fears have dropped away. I have small kids, so I notice many of the buttons they pushed before are not there anymore, or are significantly less, or I notice them in the moment and they drop away.

I also notice changes in greed/money/security, lust and anger (related to irritation). These were dominant themes during my dark night phase.

To be honest, there is little desire to get anywhere at the moment, so my meditations are mostly observing/being. Life is okay as it is, and movement happens naturally. However, I'm sure I'll want to keep exploring, so I'll remember the intention/mini-resolution setting.

RE: Space, fluttering, and rapture
Answer
3/13/18 2:14 PM as a reply to Henri.
I feel like this thread has served its purpose. Meaning, the original question is resolved. I don't necessarily want to turn this into a journal.

So thanks again to everyone who chimed in!