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Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/10/18 10:57 AM
Just did fire kasina for the 1st time and realized I have been doing a Kundalini version the whole time sans meditation object. I go through all the stuff (differences that aren't important) Annie goes through past the murk to multiple green spirals then  green/purple/pink (rarely blue) spirals made up of many moving dots, sometimes they either solidify (pick the spiral with most activity to focus on - green is easiest) to be like a 3D round-triangle/sphere or produce something different in the core of the spiral (usually of a color that jumps out), to images usually flying towards me, of the same theme overlaying other spirals/K stuff - mostly eye themes with stunning colours of same color (greens/pinks/purples), other times scary mouths, teeth, faces, etc. These are overlayed with the Kundalini layers of formations (see/feel/sometimes hear) stuff like spinning greyscale wheels, combs, hands, etc. There are all kinds of good/bad sensations that I have lumped to Kundalini so I cannot differentiate which is which. My senses are so warped/overlayed by K, that I cannot feel out pleasure jhanas and certainly not the physical effects of Kasina.

Then I get burst of ultra-clear images which only lasts a few seconds each but the colours/details are out of this world (How I wish I can draw and I draw like a 4 year old). I also get conscious mass-quieting of senses without blips - like cessation but kundalini stuff still going on. <- I counted maximum 8 in an extended sit. No Path-like bliss waves. I am left with Kundalini background good/bad and just an ultra boring flat sit with whole body fine-vibrations till it recycles again or I end the session. I get small astral travel events e.g change of posture and what feels like lost of concentration (man did I beat myself up over falling asleep during meditation!) into dream world as well. I ballsed up last night and went into the forest to meditate, saw 2 cartoons fighting kungfu, mesmerized for awhile till I decided that's not gonna help with testing my sanity. What a relief to know I can only be half crazy now... Some questions:

1. How else further should I go with this? I have been cycling these many times a day for months.
2. Any point in me recycling again and again? <- This is basically my practice the past months and I am fighting worry/doubt whether I am totally wasting time!
3. How do I do Insight with this? I simply notice the 3Cs and either nothing changes that looks like POI over K or too much changes for me to know if I am barking mad. I don't know how to judge progress as it is so messy, do I just keep noticing 3Cs? Does it matter if one notes 3Cs on POI stuff or any stuff? How intently should one note/notice the 3Cs to best effect?
4. What are these events (labeled 8)? What do I do with them?
5. How to improve astral travel?
6. These coloured dots (along with K stuff) starting with green are there ALL the time, even in the day/sleep flashing onto everything I see. These are especially alarming when fresh out of meditation - the world is basically flashing sometimes in frames. Is this an illness - I had Lasik? 
7. What should I do with my practice? Arghhhh... This K thing is driving me nuts.

Much thanks!!!! And apologies for my bad vocab with colours/shapes. Please help! Dr. Daniel? 

RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/10/18 1:48 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
OK, now I can change shapes/colours - reds/blues/yellows+compound colours, more shades/themes of everything (thanks to the book, Daniel & Shannon). Stunningly beautiful but it sure hurt the head/gut to do so due to K intensification.

Where do I find a list of beings I can choose to interact with? I wished for THE Buddha and a golden version appeared a few times tumbling/revolving in 3rd jhana, not very clear though. And is conversation possible? Man would that be useful for everyone!

Scary banging/scratching of the door/walls by ?? (sounds both inside and outside sigh) during this sit - is this dangerous and have I gone side-tracking? emoticon

RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/10/18 2:34 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
You sure this is a healthy direction?  I have no experience, but hearing stuff banging on the door doesnt sound all that relaxing. 

RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/10/18 6:08 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yilun Ong:
man did I beat myself up over falling asleep during meditation! into dream world as well. I ballsed up last night and went into the forest to meditate, saw 2 cartoons fighting kungfu, mesmerized for awhile till I decided that's not gonna help with testing my sanity. What a relief to know I can only be half crazy now... These coloured dots (along with K stuff) starting with green are there ALL the time, even in the day/sleep flashing onto everything I see. These are especially alarming when fresh out of meditation - the world is basically flashing sometimes in frames. Is this an illness - I had Lasik? What should I do with my practice? Arghhhh... This K thing is driving me nuts. Much thanks!!!!

I hope you can feel at ease with sleeping through meditation from time to time; if it helps to recontextualize, sleep is like the deepest form of meditation, and this video might help find out if you're getting enough sleep. I've been through the extremes of sleep deprivation before, so if that is one aspect of this I'd be happy to share pragmatism around that. You mentioned you had Lasik; while I don't like framing things as illness, it might be worth listening to Oliver Sacks venture into similar realms of experience. Perhaps fire kasina explores this effect to a greater extent?

RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/10/18 5:42 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Scary banging/scratching of the door/walls by ?? (sounds both inside and outside sigh) during this sit - is this dangerous and have I gone side-tracking?

Just a thought.: it's another way to explore the process that creates your universe. What's "real", anyway? How do you know? Why? When you experience the world are you seeing it as it really is? What does "as it really is" mean? Do we all see the world the same way?



RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/10/18 6:54 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Have you looked at the stuff on Kundalini Psychosis. It may have some useful information.
Try Tara Springett, she's middle of the road stuff. You have to be careful with this subject, because there's lots of delusional rubbish. 

RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/10/18 6:49 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Hahaha thanks guys!!! I feel a lot better as there is some information for my practice and perhaps for the benefit for all beings? IF I am seeing this visual stuff and having the physical stuff going 24/7, doesn't it say that I am stuck in this 3rd? DN Kasina jhana (KUNDALINI is stuck jhana? Or part of it). Could be the beginning of finding a remedy for those who deem they are 'suffering' from it.

Chris - I have only increasingly been more unsure of the Universe and more open to crazy stuff as I go along. Surely what we feel about the Universe is what most of us agree about our illusions...

RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/10/18 7:49 PM as a reply to Bigbird.
Thanks Bigbird! Delusional stuff - IKR! (Learnt this recently - I Know Right?) emoticon

Wishing you great bliss in your spiritual journey! 

RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/11/18 9:52 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Fire Kasina can produce all sorts of the experiences you described. So one could ask, why would you point me in the direction of Kundalini Psychosis? The reason is because i think your energetic system is in overload. You've described it many times (sounds like overload). Until you get the energetics working properly, probably best to stick to basic practices. I could be misinterpreting, however ive never heard you describe anything that resembles the purification process. Of course its not uncommon for people to describe the same thing in different terms.
I don't do Kundalini concepts myself, its just the result of crossing the A&P, and part of Buddha's path. The fact that it doesn't always show itself straight away, doesn't change that A&P = Kundalini. When i said that i experienced a rare Kundalini Awakening, i mean't the type (Gopi Krishna type). 
I see that you are a smoker. While you smoke, there will be little progress, no matter how much you practice. The purification or Kundalini, as you prefer will always prioritize the material aspect. As soon as you light up the process will incline to that material that you have introduced. The more toxic the material the more priority it will be given. It has a terrible effect on the energetics. Goenke tells the story of the pot smoker who rows his boat all night, sweating and struggling only to find it was still tied to the jetty. Same for the Cigarettes. 
Sure Monks smoke and probably people with technical attainments can do many things - but they won't complete the path of purification.

Edit. I keep hearing your reference to the Kundalini layer. Can you discribe it?

RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/10/18 10:05 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Regarding your question - is this a waste of time?  This is the map that I follow for the perception of insight: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5800908

i would use that to determine if it's worth your time.

RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/11/18 2:11 PM as a reply to Bigbird.
Hi Bigbird - Didn't find it useful to talk about energetic purifications as I cannot put a finger on it without conceptualizing and do not really believe in most of that - through investigation via Dharma terms, do they not just seem like any other energetics with different directions/intensity/feel/etc., mostly fitting into categories like Rapture/Bliss very well? How is their purpose concluded so firmly for you? Yes I have these daily full body/specific area bliss waves, white-out events, what feels like energy leaving the body via anywhere coinciding with seeing counter-clockwise wheels and SO much more (there's so much K dogma slapped on these and do you think you are buying selectively into them as they aren't in the Dharma?) - then you reverse and go to Dharma and claim that these are A&P but they are clearly not a stage if I can cycle through the POI, have cessation-like events, that they have both pleasant/unpleasant aspects at the same time - I go through the stages/jhanas/etc. with these overlayed on top (they seldom cease, they morph!) - how does it make sense that they are one and the same when they are layered? Today, we know so painfully little about what is called Kundalini. It is the MIND/nervous system and not some snake!

Fire Kasina - I did it once and noticed that the mental images are the same from start to end of process ending with astral travel past 4th jhana. It is actually a positive thing that my weird practice is actually kasina practice? I do not understand how that is related to psychosis. Are you making a judgement that I am psychotic and is prone to link anything to it?

Smoking - Very useful to watch cravings/clinging - I was stuck with nothing coarse to watch - it is a monk problem. If it is not obvious, I am trying to penetrate through to crave/cling. What you said is very mystical and I have not seen any difference when I stop or when I do smoke but I have no problems stopping so I'll do just that and fast for a few days along with it. There's many Thai arhats who smoke - Ajahn Chah is someone you probably heard of. I doubt it is related. A person could be addicted to coffee/sex/chocolates/sugar/etc. and the issue goes back to craving/clinging, no? Not what the specific item is? 

I am working towards finding a solution that hopefully can benefit all beings that does not come with the old ways of grounding and backing off (see aypsite.org for people with Kundalini Awakenings and have been doing it for a decade or more but aren't enlightened and I can see that they are not open to questioning their beliefs - doesn't that say something about it?). I have found that it is not true to practice that way. By pushing, one discovers greater truth in negative emotions like fear, discover greater equanimity. If I die/go crazy by pushing it like I do - so be it, I am fine with that. I hope the information will be useful as I suffer doing so. I deem this of utmost importance!!!

Please do not be offended. I think there is great value in discussing this point blank. The world is sorely missing the proper information regarding Kundalini and your expertise is very important! Stuie - please share your experience for the benefit of all beings, pretty please?

RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/11/18 2:03 PM as a reply to Noah D.
Hi Noah - I have read that link many times. It seems that I cannot work with the pragmatic models as things aren't simple for me to perceive and work with like before as it is so messy. I can only work with the morality/craving/clinging/fetters portions clearly. How do you see (technical) practice fitting into this K stuff? I prefer to work on the technical portions before the fetters like you are doing. But I am open to dropping that. Let me know what you think, thank you!

RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/11/18 3:15 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.

Guys- very important insight. What you believe is going to appear pretty god-DAMNED true to you. Question that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/11/18 5:33 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
There are many versions of this, i will ask Ajahn Brahm when i see him. 

https://www.fsnewsletter.org/html/19/jun2.htm


RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/11/18 7:02 PM as a reply to Bigbird.
Were you smoking too?

Sure. We all smoked

Ajahn Chah heard a desana given by Ajahn Pannananda that discouraged smoking. He said if one couldn't let go of a tiny defilement like smoking, how could one be liberated from the big ones? Ajahn Chah contemplated this, and decided to forbid smoking on these grounds, as well as because few other Ajahns in the district smoked. He thought the resources of the laity could be put to better use. It wasn't easy for the local villagers to get cigarettes. In those days, factory-produced cigarettes weren't available and we only had the local hand-made roll-ups. Some of the monks and novices would directly ask the laity for cigarettes without a being asked if they needed anything, and this went against the bhikkhu Vinaya. He could see problems and difficulties arising because of this.

I expended good time/effort writing a much longer post. Affected by bad mobile internet connection, it was wiped. The frustration lasted for a second or two. I let it go. Good lessons there.

Times are different. Tobacco is everywhere and very easily available. What people thought of it has changed as well. I do not ask for tobacco but yet I am offered. Ajahn Chah was already enlightened - according to many, but I could be wrong about it being related to the core of craving/clinging - serious doubt though. You know what it is. It cannot cause a blockage to spiritual pursuits other than absolutely related to the cores of crave/cling, I think any other purification concept is bullshit. It is to the core of what is called Mind and beyond that perhaps - I do not know.

What you think of me or anyone - know it as an illusion or judging a permanence of an ultra-fast process. It cannot possibly be real in any way. What is worthy to talk about here is of what the concept of Kundalini is and what we can provide our experience for others to process this invaluable information for the benefit of ALL beings. I am interested in keeping this going, very purely for that. And I thank you for this, sincerely...

I wrote this with very pleasant raptures going on - I do not sense any purification going on at all...

RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/11/18 11:51 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
What year was this? Was it after you went on tudong by yourself?

Oh yes, I remember smoking when I was on tudong in Chiang Mai province.

This reminds me of the time when I took the other monks on tudong without Ajahn Chah. We met some lay supporters one evening who kindly took us to a good place to stay the night in the forest. They took their leave - to go home to supper - but said they would return later to hear a desana. I was asked to give a talk and told them I would if I was still in the same spot when they returned, or they could call out to me if I had moved. All of us were tired and, to tell the truth, I didn't feel like giving a talk. So we moved to another place, and all of us agreed not to light a fire and keep quiet if the lay supporters came looking for us later. Then I thought, 'When the lay folk return, they're bound to bring some cigarettes, and I'd quite like a smoke to perk me up a bit.' Sure enough, the lay people came along. They began calling for me through the forest, and I broke my agreement with the other monks and called to them, surrendering because of my desire to have a cigarette. Some good came out of it, and after my talk they departed respectfully. Afterwards Ajahn Sinowin came creeping over. 'Did you get any tobacco?' he whispered. We had a smoke together. This is the nature of defilement and desire.


You missed the best part.




RE: Fire Kasina Kundalini
Answer
3/12/18 12:29 AM as a reply to Bigbird.
This is the nature of defilement and desire.

You missed the best part.

May I know what is the deep meaning you are implying? I said that clearly below?! I am watching the Hunter - what I call it. Investigating so that I can overcome that fetter. Avoiding it is not the key IME... I hope I am wrong, but it seems you are deeply bogged down by your prejudices that the truth is hard to see...
Times are different. Tobacco is everywhere and very easily available. What people thought of it has changed as well. I do not ask for tobacco but yet I am offered. Ajahn Chah was already enlightened - according to many, but I could be wrong about it being related to the core of craving/clinging - serious doubt though. You know what it is. It cannot cause a blockage to spiritual pursuits other than absolutely related to the cores of crave/cling, I think any other purification concept is bullshit. It is to the core of what is called Mind and beyond that perhaps - I do not know.