Crossing without Mastering

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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 3/30/08 7:08 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/30/08 7:08 PM

Crossing without Mastering

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: woman_alone
Forum: The Arising and Passing Away

The description on the A&P page finally cued me in as to what happened a few months ago. I had been reading a new text and found myself brimming over with insight - a whole new perspective. After reading I felt compelled to take a nap (on a park bench) and woke up in a brand new state of awareness, watching thoughts, feelings, reactions happening in and around me in a removed (slightly baffled/humorous) way. It lasted hours, but wore off as I had to interact with people and work situations. After that I began seeking and found new resolve, etc. It had a fervent, manic quality, which I happily kept to myself. But it change the nature of my faith and practice, and landed me here.
What is interesting, is that in my daily practice there is no chance that I have mastered the fourth Nana or Second Jhana. My understanding, now (thanks to the description) is that I crossed but did not master this point.

How common is this? I think it was Vincent who said he crossed several times. Should I expect to go through it again and again until that state is mastered?

Also, shortly after that, I had several "wierd" revelations about my "self/psychology". Some of them quite shattering. Also to be expected?

Thanks, as always, for any thoughts you have to share, DO.
Nathan I S, modified 14 Years ago at 3/31/08 6:39 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/31/08 6:39 AM

RE: Crossing without Mastering

Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/26/09 Recent Posts
There is a brief thread related to this--as I don't have the ability to move the thread from it's current parent page (does a moderator?), here is the link:

http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/thread/1280025/%22Spontaneous%22+Arising+%26+Passing+Away

I found Vince's response particularly helpful. As he stated, you pretty much need to get stream-entry before the insights will be permanent, though the damage is instant and permanent.

I don't know how common the Deep Insight into the Arising and Passing Away is among the population at large, but it does seem to show up a lot and it does recur, and it happens across traditions, it happens to people outside traditions (e.g., kids, atheists), and it happens in radically different ways to the same person.

Dramatic A&P events, or events that are likely suspects, at least in my experience, do seem to recur, though I believe that the intensity of one's practice will have some bearing on this. I was practicing in another tradition without the benefit of a map and had this happen to me more than once--as I mentioned, i didn't know the maps and so it's hard to categorize--and after backing away from that, it hasn't happened since though I do get into late first/early second vipassana jhana territory in sitting practice. It's harder for me to speak to the psychological/ feeling-of-self effects that follow since I suspect this happened a long time ago.
Hokai Sobol, modified 14 Years ago at 3/31/08 8:34 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/31/08 8:34 AM

RE: Crossing without Mastering

Posts: 4 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Nathan, I just added a tag "A&P" to the thread you linked, and now these two threads appear as related content (see below).
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 4/1/08 8:42 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/1/08 8:42 PM

RE: Crossing without Mastering

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: woman_alone

Thanks to both of you. I re-read that page more carefully, and it answered several of my questions. Sounds like I crossed but didn't achieve first path. Sounds also like a retreat could be useful in progressing to first path. Thanks to you especially Nathan for your personal experiences with regards to my questions. Very helpful.
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 14 Years ago at 4/4/08 6:00 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/4/08 6:00 AM

RE: Crossing without Mastering

Posts: 3231 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
To woman_alone: retreats generally are key. Great plan. If and when you go on one, the most important thing is that you really practice as instructed for every second that you possibly can: that sort of momentum is extremely efficacious.

I recently posted an essay that details some of my own experiences with the A&P: http://www.interactivebuddha.com/theAandP.shtml

My more formal description of it may be found here in the later part of that section:
http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/F46A4E80-C4FF-43C3-B6FF-5708E9E4CA15.html

I hope that it is helpful and will allow people to recognize this event in their own practice, so that they will know what to do with it and help them be prepared for what happens next.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 4/5/08 10:07 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/5/08 10:07 PM

RE: Crossing without Mastering

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: woman_alone

Thanks Daniel, the narrative in your essay makes it easier to identify how this event can manifest in one's life. Having read your and thought about it myself, I now see this isn't the first time for me, though this last was perhaps more intense and life altering.

If my understanding is correct, then what I have to do now is master the second vipassana jhana in order to be able to cross the A&P in a permananent way? Is this the metaphore of putting your foot down through the stream to the bottom? And when that happens I no longer have to cross the A&P again and again? If that's the next step, then I see exactly why retreat is needed. Will daily sitting help in this also, or will it just push me over the A&P to fall back again?

Thanks for your thoughts,

T.

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