hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/12/08 12:17 PM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/12/08 12:18 PM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/12/08 12:18 PM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/12/08 12:19 PM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/12/08 12:19 PM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/12/08 12:19 PM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/12/08 12:20 PM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Hokai Sobol 7/12/08 12:33 PM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/12/08 1:47 PM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Vincent Horn 7/13/08 8:22 AM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Vincent Horn 7/13/08 8:23 AM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Vincent Horn 7/13/08 8:23 AM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/14/08 4:27 AM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/14/08 4:27 AM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/14/08 4:28 AM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/14/08 4:28 AM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Mark L 7/14/08 4:29 AM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Hokai Sobol 7/14/08 6:27 AM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Hokai Sobol 7/14/08 6:28 AM
RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post) Hokai Sobol 7/14/08 6:29 AM
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:17 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:17 PM

hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

Posts: 90 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

Hi all, I figured I should actually introduce myself, and mention what I've been up to lately. I'm 27. I just started a PhD in a neuroscience-focused bioengineering program. I read MCTB sometime in the past, and it didn't resonate with me. But, a million things have happened since then, and I found myself wanting technical precision and to just go for it, so here I am. I've read carefully through MCTB again, and I intend to use it as a touchstone for my practice.
There's a character limit to posts, so the next few are multi-purposed rambling--basically it's a justification and summary of what I've been up to lately.

So, hello everyone!

-Mark
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:18 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:18 PM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

Posts: 90 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Above all, I think the most important thing to do is "just meditate," and to not let anything get in the way of that. Along similar lines, one of my favorite meditation teachers says, "A good meditation session is one that you did."

That being said, I'm exploring adding some additional structure to how I meditate across time. For example, a simple way to do this is to add a minute or two to your meditation session every day. So, on day one maybe you meditate for twenty minutes. Then, the next day you'd meditate for twenty-one minutes, and so on.

In, strength-training, there's something known as overtraining, where if you lift too much or too frequently, several things can happen: your progress plateaus, your progress decreases, or you get injured and have a mild, major, or permanent setback.

Now, brain is not muscle (and ligaments, bone, and tendons) so there will be different metrics and timelines, but the brain is a biological system, so it's likely certain principles will still hold. For example, when I strength-train to incrementally improve gait or posture, and then back off for several days, somewhere within days two through five, I'll notice the sought-after changes come online. Similarly, I've noticed that if I've been meditating regularly, it's often the day (or two) after I take a break and stop meditating that I have most clarity, composure, will and best attention-span. (Not that any of those things are necessarily the goal of meditation, but it does demonstrate that something is changing after meditation stops.)

Elite athletes use the concept of "periodization" which is varying the type and intensity of training in a structured way to meet short- and long-term goals and to maximize potential over an entire career.
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:18 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:18 PM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

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An elite lifter carefully schedules his or her training over months or even years to peak precisely on competition day. An experienced meditator might scale back the intensity of their meditation in the week or month before a retreat, meditating for a minimum baseline amount each day to "stay warmed up," and then tremendously ramp things up during the retreat, to really go for whatever realization he or she is aiming at.

Note that the beginner, intermediate, and advanced athlete/meditator will have very different needs. An elite long distance runner might average over one hundred miles per week, but a beginning runner who pushed through the pain and tried something similar would probably tear muscles, rip cartilage, develop stress fractures and permanently injure themselves. (Luckily, physical pain is self-limiting, and the beginning runner would probably stop or slow down long before permanent injury ensued.) A beginning runner might do pretty much the same thing week to week, an intermediate runner would plan distances and recovery over months, and an advanced runner would probably plan out an entire season with major competitions.
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:19 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:19 PM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

Posts: 90 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Maybe for a meditator all this is unnecessary, but I like to set myself up for success. In workout land, time and time again, I would follow various workout plans diligently over months, only to have imbalances and injuries creep up on me. Since I intend to achieve permanent, non-dual realization, I don't want to push too hard only to "injure" myself (however that might happen) and have major setbacks and delays. Injuries or setbacks might be emotional (too much stuff coming up to power through), physical (postural/structure problems), or just neglect of daily life and relationships coming back to bite me.

So far, my best meditation run was approximately 240 perfectly contiguous days for a solid hour each day. That was over three years ago, and I haven't pulled off anything like that since. My "technique," if you could call it that, was some sort of "just investigate" which generally ended up, despite my best efforts, with me spacing out for an hour while simultaneously desperately wishing for the timer to go off. (I didn't have any discernment yet as to what was reasonable instruction and what wasn't, so I made up my own technique which maybe wasn't all that effective. I did learn a lot about goal-setting, starting and maintaining habits. And I did end up with an iron will and an unshakeable, unqualifiable "something," so I don't regret the time spent, in any case.)
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:19 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:19 PM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

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I wasn't keep careful records at that point, but eventually I had to stop, mostly for emotional and life reasons. Over the past few years, I've gotten a handle on most of that, and I'm starting up again. My first goal is to be able to sustain robust, intense concentration for a solid hour, and to be able to sustain that day after day, forever, as if it were as effortless as breathing. Then I'll use that as a stable base for both insight and further concentration attainments. Frankly, I'm fed up with wasting time while sitting, and I want each minute to count.

I think I've found an interesting way to do that. I've introduced "micro-recoveries" into my meditation sessions. I have an interval timer that repeats two consecutive time intervals. At the moment, it counts down for one minute, then thirty seconds, and it repeats this twenty times. The one minute is for concentration practice, and the thirty seconds is for recovery. In total, that's twenty minutes of on-task practice, ten minutes of wandering disengagement, and thirty total minutes of sit time.
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:19 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:19 PM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

Posts: 90 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
As I was playing around with meditation time and recovery time, I wasn't sure what to start with. But, if you're really focused, one minute is a timeless eternity and thirty seconds of daydreaming passes in the blink of an eye. It seemed like a good place to start. Because one minute is so short, you have a much better chance of staying on task. Therefore, since I'm keeping records, I record the on-task time and leave out the recovery time, and that's a pretty good estimate of how long I was actually on task. Then, I'm able to keep track of how much time I've really put in over months and years.

Every day I've been simply adding a few more rounds of meditation plus recovery. When I hit a certain number, I'm going to dial down the total number of rounds and start meditating and incrementing by two minute intervals and so forth. So, a sample plan might look like this:

repeat x on/off
10 x 1:00/0:30 <--start with ten rounds
11 x 1:00/0:30
...
60 x 1:00/0:30 <--go to some upper limit of rounds (this comes out to an hour and a half in this example)
05 x 2:00/0:30 <--go back to ten rounds, but "game-on" time is longer
06 x 2:00/0:30
...
30 x 2:00/0:30 <-- upper time limit reached, now start using three-minute intervals
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:20 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:20 PM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

Posts: 90 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
I hope that makes sense. The goal is to build up to a full hour (and beyond) of rock-solid, unshakeable concentration to use as a base for insight and concentration attainments. With longer and longer meditation times, the micro-recoveries interrupt less and less and drop away. Varying these sorts of numbers in a structured way over time might lead to faster and more profound attainments in the long run. I'm still in the experimentation phase, but I'm trying to put something together that is interspersed with days off and will last an entire year. And at that point, I'm hoping to get really intense without fear of weird symptoms and setbacks.

Anyway, this is what I've been playing with. I haven't been doing it for very long. This might not be a good idea for any variety of reasons, and, if you try it, YMMV. When in doubt, sit down (or lie down, or stand, or walk), set a timer, and meditate.

---

http://gymboss.com
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Programming-Strength-Training-Rippetoe/dp/0976805413/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215898367&sr=8-1
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:33 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 12:33 PM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

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Hi Mark. This sounds great. There's actually an approach in several Tibetan lineages that really starts like this with a minute or two of effort, and then a short break, and then on again, gradually increasing the time as proficiency grows. What is the primary object or modality you use at this point?
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 1:47 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/12/08 1:47 PM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

Posts: 90 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
>> There's actually an approach in several Tibetan lineages

Excellent! I'm glad I'm not pulling this out of thin air.

I tend to stop breathing during intense concentration, so I've been using all physical sensations of breathing as my concentration object which keeps my breathing smooth. (When I eventually start going after altered states I'll probably move to an eyes-closed visualization, as per MCTB. For insight, I'm going to restrict noting to various senses (touch, sight, etc., to start with.).

Suggestions are always welcome.
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Vincent Horn, modified 15 Years ago at 7/13/08 8:22 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/13/08 8:22 AM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

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Hi Mark,

Thanks for your post. I found your approach very interesting, and appreciated the methodicalness and precision of your experimentation. Bravo on that. emoticon

Also, assuming that you are sharing this to get feedback from other practitioners who have also conducted the "experiment of meditation", so as to consider alternative perspectives and to perhaps fine-tune your own approach I offer the following for you consideration.

First, I think it's an interesting parallel that you draw between fitness training and meditation. There certainly do seem to be many parallels here, and having been an athelete and completed several intensive periods of training (I'm currently in the midst of a 14-week strength training program that is quite rigorous) I thought I might take your points and dissect them a little further. emoticon

The parallel you seem to be making between over-training the body, and over-training through formal meditation practice seems good-and-well on the surface, but I would question this metaphor as these are categorically different areas of the training. Training attention is very different from training the physical body, as it has very different characteristics and qualities. That being said, I do think we could keep the over-training distinction, but instead should frame it in this way: Instead of seeing training the mind in terms of meditating vs. not-meditating, where if you meditate too much you will over-train, I would frame it instead in terms of "right effort".

[continued in next post]
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Vincent Horn, modified 15 Years ago at 7/13/08 8:23 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/13/08 8:23 AM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

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Having sat for as little as 30 minutes a day, and as much as 12 hours a day for months on end, I've found that insight and concentration are developed most effectively not by trying to modulate between meditating and not meditating (as clearly on a retreat one is meditating the entire time, nearly non-stop), but rather by modulating one's amount of effort in practice. The over-training dichotomy then becomes laxity vs. over-efforting. For example, when I am on retreat--or sitting in practice--I have a clear intention to remain mindful throughout that period. I never try and cultivate non-mindfulness (though one can't be perfectly mindful, obviously), but instead try and notice when there is too much effort (in which case I relax) or when there is too little effort (in which case I wratchet up the interest and energy). I have over-efforted during practice before and it did lead to a kind of over-training where I felt completely zonked out, tight, and there didn't seem to be much value in that practice. Then when I quit practicing and released the effort a bit I did find that there seemed to be progress. But I wouldn't attribute that to meditating vs. not meditating but rather to not yet knowing how to modulate my effort through mindfulness.

You see, mindfulness--as is seen in the fantastic teachings on the seven factors of enlightenment--can never be over-developed as it is always working to balance out the other 6 factors (the 3 tranquilizing factors and the 3 energizing factors). The other 6 factors however can be over or under developed and so with those we must watch out how they are balanced. The great thing though is that mindfulness of whatever is occuring just naturally leads to the missing factor being strengthened. When our mind is dull and we're mindful of it, the mind is inclining towards clarity. When the mind is over-energized and we are aware of it, we are holding it all in a wider space and can thus relax.
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Vincent Horn, modified 15 Years ago at 7/13/08 8:23 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/13/08 8:23 AM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

Posts: 211 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
The danger of the approach that you mention, seems to me, to be that you could be intentionally cultivating non-mindfulness and undermining the powerful continuity of attention which brings about great depths of concentration and insight. Since you've read Daniel's book I assume you've seen what a huge emphasis he puts on continuity, and how strongly he correlates continuous, strong practice with the developments of insight that each of us (presumably) are here to develop. I've certainly found this to be the case, and have seen with pretty much every meditation practice I've undertaken (insight, concentration, metta, etc.) that continuity is always stressed and for good reason.

That being said, I am quite open to being proven wrong on this point or to at least re-evaluating the importance of continuinty of mindfulness in practice.

all the best,

-Vince H.
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 4:27 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 4:27 AM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

Posts: 90 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Vince,

What you're saying makes sense.

>> [...] but I would question this metaphor [...]

There is always a danger of comparing apples to oranges, in this case strength-training vs mind-training. I've noticed many places in Daniel's book where meditating for hours and days on end, if possible, is suggested to be a really, really good idea. That point was definitely not lost on me.

>> [...] modulating one's amount of effort in practice.
>> The over-training dichotomy then becomes laxity vs. over-efforting.

I would word it as "meditating skillfully," or having the right touch, not pushing too hard or too soft, "maintaining just the right amount of pressure," navigating the territory appropriately, responding skillfully and deftly to mental conditions that are in constant flux, etc. This is something that I need to learn more about and improve upon, and I'm sure some of it will come naturally too, with practice.
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 4:27 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 4:27 AM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

Posts: 90 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
When I wrote my OP, I had "practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect," running through my head. The strength training analogy would be, as soon as you can't lift the weight with perfect form, reduce the weight or stop. Otherwise, you're grooving sloppy, dangerous form into your nervous system. (On the meditation side, maybe that would be grooving unproductive mental habits into one's mind.)

Similarly, my motivation for practicing the way I am is to strongly condition myself, right from the beginning, "to meditate when I'm meditating," or "stay on protocol." In MCTB, Dan says, "It is important to know that really getting
into a sense of the breath as a continuous entity for 10 seconds will do
you more good than being generally with the breath on and off for an
hour" (139). That really, really hit home for me and was probably my main motivation for all of this: to really nail those 10 seconds (or one minute, or one hour) over and over again. When I think of those hours upon hours upon hours of "meditating" in lala land, well, let's just say that now I know better, and I'd prefer change my ways. emoticon
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 4:28 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 4:28 AM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

Posts: 90 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
>> but instead try and notice when there is too much effort
>> (in which case I relax)
>> or when there is too little effort
>> (in which case I wratchet up the interest and energy)

This in-the-trenches description of applied mindfulness is helpful. I do keep an eye on breathing, muscle tension, and quality of attention. I try to have a light, firm, perfectly continuous touch, just a little heavier than I think is necessary, so I don't drift off. Sometimes I push hard if I notice myself starting to flake out. This should probably go in another thread, but I make a distinction between
1) sensations experienced, the landscape,
2) the act of meditating--how I act and react to the landscape via noting, etc.,
3) monitoring the act of meditating (hopefully intuitive, non-verbal, and non-elaborative while on the cushion) how's it going, am I doing it right, ease up a bit, etc. I bet there's specialized vocabulary for all of these things.
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 4:28 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 4:28 AM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

Posts: 90 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
>>>>
The danger of the approach that you mention, seems to me, to be that you could be intentionally cultivating non-mindfulness and undermining the powerful continuity of attention which brings about great depths of concentration and insight.
>>>>

Ah, yes, this has definitely crossed my mind. To be as clear as possible, I am neither cultivating non-mindfulness nor not cultivating non-mindfulness. emoticon When the timer goes off, as opposed to consciously "doing nothing," (which I actually intend to experiment with as a meditation practice, later), or intentionally being non-mindful, I simply let my mind go along its habitual tracks and neither intend nor not-intend to keep track of where it goes. That generally results in getting lost in thought.

So, perhaps your warning still stands, and is well taken. I agree that there's a potential issue here where I'm conditioning myself to keep breaking out of whatever state I've cultivated. And, I do understand that perfectly unbroken contact with whatever you're attending to or working on is very, very important. One plus, at least, is that what I'm doing does seem to be creating a nice flexibility in that I'm starting to move in and out of my fledgling concentration state very fast and reliably.
Mark L, modified 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 4:29 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 4:29 AM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

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Thanks for your nuanced reply. It's great to be able to bounce some of this back and forth. I'm keeping notes on what I'm doing and how it seems to be affecting me, so I'll post an update within a few months. Also, it seems like I should, sooner rather than later, experiment with meditating for longer periods in addition to slowly working towards them, keeping an eye on not creating those bad habits I'm so worried about. In any case, the goal is to develop healthy, strong concentration as a foundation for other endeavors, so I'm more than willing to revise if I prove to be on the wrong track.

-Mark
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 6:27 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 6:27 AM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

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Great conversation! I'm strongly in agreement with the argument Vince has made on the importance of mindfulness as the one factor that one never has too much of. It's the meta-capacity in both seven factors and five faculties/powers. One could even go as far as seeing all other items as functions of mindfulness itself. For those not into qualia conducing to awakening, here's a link for a basic intro:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Factors_of_Enlightenment

Anyway, it seems crucial to have a useful understanding of mindfulness, because only such mindfulness, when applied consistently, will produce right effort. To be precise: (1) mindfulness always goes along with introspective clarity, so that sometimes they're listed as a composite term (smrtisamprajanya / satisampajanna), and basically it makes not much sense being mindful while confused about what's going on in your awareness in phenomenological terms, and (2) mindfulness equally embraces what is going on, what was going on, and what will be going on, since there's no way to make sense of your present-moment practice without reference points of past results and future aims, so it's not a flat present one's aware of. Meditation is, in large part, a process of learning from one's mistakes, and the continuity mentioned by Vince arises from a willingness to accept that. An ability to reconstruct the whole cushion time minute-per-minute (or even second-per-second) immediately after coming out of meditation can also be taken as a measure of mindfulness, and of the general quality of one's sessions. An ability to remember instructions you received and decisions you made in the past is also a measure of mindfulness etc. Remembering something at the time you need it is crucial for any endeavor.

(cont.)
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 6:28 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 6:28 AM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

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The question of maintaining effort arises as part of shamatha training, where - after conquering the more gross obstacles - one is required to learn the subtle balance of effort, i.e. applying when necessary, and not applying when the mind is balanced. What this results in goes beyond intentional effort to maintain mindfulness, otherwise the sheer intentionality would cumulatively intensify whatever gestalt was there to begin with, including the not so obvious imbalances in one's psyche. In other words, while risking to over-simplify, the sheer intentionality itself would become an obstruction to the expense of our mind's natural capacity of becoming and remaining aware and alert when obstacles to it are removed. So in this context training is a matter of restoring mind's innate capacities.

Now, a solution to this is definitely not to cultivate non-mindfulness. Non-mindfulness is always there anyway, in reference to everything outside the scope of mindfulness. To cultivate mindfulness (and introspective clarity) is to recognize such a quality as already existing and then learn to remove obstacles to its optimal functioning. It's not that we actually generate mindfulness out of nothing. Secondly, one ought to make space for a relaxed, natural flow of awareness in mid-sessions and after-sessions. According to my experience, in these periods, awareness is checked very gently, almost without deliberation. At more advanced stages, a deliberation is necessary only at a beginning of a certain formal period (including after-sessions), after which one is largely immersed in whatever one is doing without necessity for a self-conscious point of reference. But at a more basic level, people tend to slack or overdo, and the only way to learn this balance is by trying.

(cont.)
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 6:29 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 7/14/08 6:29 AM

RE: hello, introduction, periodization (long post)

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The levels of awkwardness and introspective incompetence we bring to the meditation cushion are fantastic. That is, the degree to which we can estrange ourselves from our own natural capacity to be simply alert and reflective of what is happening is amazing. It doesn't mean, however, that we should allow this prevailing state to define or seriously limit the way we envision the nature of this learning process or even the simple skill of being present. So from this vantage point, the weight lifting metaphor is definitely not so useful, though I still like the way it sounds.:-)

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