Forum: The Samatha Jhanas

Hi all,
Since my practice is a bit eventless at the moment, I can't think of any practice-oriented subjects for discussion. So here's a little bit of terminology to play with: the simple three-level model for samatha found in many Thai forest tradition dhamma talks and essays.

Kanika Samadhi - moment-to-moment concentration
Upacara Samadhi - access concentration
Apana Samadhi - one-pointedness, jhana

One description of upacara samadhi which I can relate to my practice is: "like being inside a glasshouse during a thunderstorm - you see the lightning flashes and hear the thunder and the rain drumming on the panes, but you don't get wet".

So, how about the other levels? Any useful details from personal experience?

And, the big question: how much concentration is necessary for insight practice? A common recommendation is "momentary concentration is necessary for vipassana practice". Daniel recommends access concentration as the minimum. Thoughts?

Cheers,
Florian

Hi Florian,
nice playground you have created here. I really liked the glasshouse-metaphore. I am joining your experience of this being quite accurate. For me it has the quality of being able to distinguish between sensations and the reactions to them. You really begin to underastand that suffering is not a thing itself but more like a bad habit.
The question on how much samadhi is necessary for vipassana is as interesting as it gets. Personally, concentration becomes more and more important in my vipassana practice because it can give you some really good "AHA"-moments that enable you to access new spheres of vibrations.
Best wishes,
Martin

PS.: I'm currently in Hong Kong and will soon go visit a temple where they have an actual fragment of Buddha's body, I think it's a tooth, WOAH!!

Hi Florian,

> So, how about the other levels? Any useful details from personal experience?
> And, the big question: how much concentration is necessary for insight practice?
> A common recommendation is "momentary concentration is necessary for vipassana practice".
> Daniel recommends access concentration as the minimum. Thoughts?

Some differences:
Kanika Samadhi has the same strength as Upacara Samadhi but the objects are different. Upacara Samadhi has a pa~n~natti (a concept) as object while Kanika Samadhi has paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities) as object. Apana Samadhi has either a concept or nibbana (nirvana) as object, which means either jhana or fruition.

Yes, you need Kanika Samadhi to understand and see the ultimate reality. Kanika Samadhi means that there is no time to build concepts. The awareness is moving from paramattha dhamma to paramattha dhamma. By this the normal seem to be firm and mind created reality, which hides The Three Characteristics, will be dissolved.


Upacara Samadhi:
Sometimes in my samatha mediation practice there is shift. All tiredness and slothfulness is vanished suddenly. It is like to go with the mind in a very big bright space. May be this is Upacara Samadhi. The bright Space seems to be the nimitta (sign), which is described as a accompaniment of Upacara Samadhi. But I am not sure.


Paticca

Hi Paticca,
If I understand you correctly, you assign momentary concentration to insight practice (investigating the three characteristics), and access concentration to tranquility practice (focussing on a concept)?

Cheers,
Florian

Hi Martin

Interesting - there seems to be quite a large "insight-component" in your description of the concentration state.

Sometimes my meditation seems to oscillate between samatha and vipassana, to the point of "blurring" of the two; at other times, I can clearly distinguish between the two. Has anybody else been experiencing this?

Cheers,
Florian

Hi Florian,

>If I understand you correctly, you assign momentary concentration to insight
> practice (investigating the three characteristics), and access concentration
>to tranquility practice (focussing on a concept)?

Yes, because momentary concentration changes the object and access concentration does not change the object. That is why the last (with one exception) has to be a concept. But the term access concentration is also used for the only stable object nirvana. According Theravada Abhidhamma fruition is a jhana state with nirvana as object.

>Sometimes my meditation seems to oscillate between samatha and vipassana,
>to the point of "blurring" of the two; at other times, I can clearly distinguish between the two.
>Has anybody else been experiencing this?

Yes, to me too. But if my concentration is on an concept it is still not immovable on the object. The mind is investigating (vicara, "sustained thought") the concept (this means the object don't change but the sight on the object). Best description of this is found in Visuddhi Magga and Atthasalini from Buddhagosa:

"Applied thought is like striking a bell, sustained thought like the ringing; applied thought is like a bee’s flying towards a flower, sustained thought like its buzzing around the flower; applied thought is like a compass pin that stays fixed to the centre of a circle, sustained thought like the pin that revolves around" (Vism. 142-43; PP. 148-49).


Paticca