Driven to practice - Discussion
Driven to practice
Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 8/19/08 5:39 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/19/08 5:39 AM
Driven to practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: josh0
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum
Hi, I'm new here. Name's Josh.
I'm half tempted to write a long introductory post, though that's not really my intent. The relevant information, at least, is that I'm currently in the process of building a dedicated practice after a number of false starts over the past few years.
Yesterday, I finished reading Part II of Daniel's book. I'll admit that in starting Part II I was of the opinion that I didn't really need to read it, that I already had the open mind necessary to take the hard-core, practical approach to the dharma. Fortunately, I read it anyway, and in doing so discovered that I had been falling prey to certain dogmas and that they had been obstructing, or at least impeding, real progress. I also found extremely useful the advice to set goals that include a present component rather than just a future goal. Upon finishing Part II I set down the book and set the goal for myself that I would diligently practice daily meditation with the goal of attaining access concentration (which I can't consistently achieve).
(Apparently I'm going to run into the character limit, so I'm splitting this into two posts.)
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum
Hi, I'm new here. Name's Josh.
I'm half tempted to write a long introductory post, though that's not really my intent. The relevant information, at least, is that I'm currently in the process of building a dedicated practice after a number of false starts over the past few years.
Yesterday, I finished reading Part II of Daniel's book. I'll admit that in starting Part II I was of the opinion that I didn't really need to read it, that I already had the open mind necessary to take the hard-core, practical approach to the dharma. Fortunately, I read it anyway, and in doing so discovered that I had been falling prey to certain dogmas and that they had been obstructing, or at least impeding, real progress. I also found extremely useful the advice to set goals that include a present component rather than just a future goal. Upon finishing Part II I set down the book and set the goal for myself that I would diligently practice daily meditation with the goal of attaining access concentration (which I can't consistently achieve).
(Apparently I'm going to run into the character limit, so I'm splitting this into two posts.)
Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 8/19/08 5:46 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/19/08 5:46 AM
RE: Driven to practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: josh0
With that goal in mind I decided that I should use all my down time for at least some level of practice and so, in bed last night, I tried to focus on my breath until I fell asleep. I spent the night in what I thought was restless sleep, and woke up convinced that I had overslept and that it could be no earlier than noon. I was quite surprised to discover that it was 8:30, my wife hadn't even had her coffee yet, and I felt like a million bucks. Hoping that my attempted meditation before sleep was the cause, I felt re-invigorated in my desire to pursue my goal and decided to continue using all available time to practice in whatever limited capacity I was able. This lead to what I can only describe, as ridiculous as it sounds, as a trancendent experience in the shower. In the process I felt as though I had overcome some of the obstacles that I had placed in my own way, and that I'm really on the right path now. Walking to work afterwards I felt a tremendous internal energy that continues even now as well as the intense desire to not work and instead dedicate my time to meditation (as a compromise I'm posting here, which is probably less productive than either work or meditation would be).
It's nice to think, though it seems a bit presumptuous, that this was some sort of A&P experience (which I just now realized that this means it should probably have been posted on the A&P page, sorry about that). Certainly some of the common characteristics seem to be present, especially the fact that it can look like a manic episode in some people which seems an adequate description of the way I currently feel. But I'm warry that this inclination could be nothing more than hubris, which I why I'm posting here. If anyone has any thoughts or advice that they could offer, I would very much appreciate it. My intention is to simply continue to dedicate as much time as possible to practice, meet my above-stated goal, and progress onto new goals.
With that goal in mind I decided that I should use all my down time for at least some level of practice and so, in bed last night, I tried to focus on my breath until I fell asleep. I spent the night in what I thought was restless sleep, and woke up convinced that I had overslept and that it could be no earlier than noon. I was quite surprised to discover that it was 8:30, my wife hadn't even had her coffee yet, and I felt like a million bucks. Hoping that my attempted meditation before sleep was the cause, I felt re-invigorated in my desire to pursue my goal and decided to continue using all available time to practice in whatever limited capacity I was able. This lead to what I can only describe, as ridiculous as it sounds, as a trancendent experience in the shower. In the process I felt as though I had overcome some of the obstacles that I had placed in my own way, and that I'm really on the right path now. Walking to work afterwards I felt a tremendous internal energy that continues even now as well as the intense desire to not work and instead dedicate my time to meditation (as a compromise I'm posting here, which is probably less productive than either work or meditation would be).
It's nice to think, though it seems a bit presumptuous, that this was some sort of A&P experience (which I just now realized that this means it should probably have been posted on the A&P page, sorry about that). Certainly some of the common characteristics seem to be present, especially the fact that it can look like a manic episode in some people which seems an adequate description of the way I currently feel. But I'm warry that this inclination could be nothing more than hubris, which I why I'm posting here. If anyone has any thoughts or advice that they could offer, I would very much appreciate it. My intention is to simply continue to dedicate as much time as possible to practice, meet my above-stated goal, and progress onto new goals.
Florian, modified 16 Years ago at 8/19/08 7:06 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/19/08 7:06 AM
RE: Driven to practice
Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Hi Josh,
Welcome, first of all. You might want to put something on your profile page, because this thread will get buried over time, but your profile is easy to find.
I've experienced a similar peak of enthusiasm a while back. My advice is to use the momentum to establish a regular meditation schedule, not to worry about things like hubris, but simply to notice it, and also not to worry about the subsequent decline in enthusiasm, but to keep practicing regardless, noticing any unpleasant or frustrating experience without getting caught up in memories or wishful thinking about better times.
I share your appreciation for the chapter on finding clear goals in Daniels book - I've re-read it several times.
Cheers,
Florian
Welcome, first of all. You might want to put something on your profile page, because this thread will get buried over time, but your profile is easy to find.
I've experienced a similar peak of enthusiasm a while back. My advice is to use the momentum to establish a regular meditation schedule, not to worry about things like hubris, but simply to notice it, and also not to worry about the subsequent decline in enthusiasm, but to keep practicing regardless, noticing any unpleasant or frustrating experience without getting caught up in memories or wishful thinking about better times.
I share your appreciation for the chapter on finding clear goals in Daniels book - I've re-read it several times.
Cheers,
Florian
Hokai Sobol, modified 16 Years ago at 8/19/08 8:08 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/19/08 8:08 AM
RE: Driven to practice
Posts: 4 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Hi, and welcome. Building a dedicated practice is a lifelong exercise, and starting again and again is in no way a symptom of failure. Experiences differ greatly, as you know, both with one individual and among different people, and sometimes to a confusing degree. While your recent experience may prompt you to more enthusiasm, it is beneficial to develop an understanding that does not rely too heavily on the specific quality of inner experience, or on any given technique you may be using as such, but instead is rooted in the non-relative position in relation to all experience. That said, it can prove useful to identify those experiences that mark significant transitions and adapt one's effort in maintaining your spiritual discipline. Good luck!
Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 8/19/08 8:29 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/19/08 8:29 AM
RE: Driven to practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: josh0
Thanks for the welcome and the advice. I've added a probably too long summary of my path so far to my profile. I definitley intend to try and make good use of the enthusiasm I've suddenly stumbled upon. Sadly, my local meditation center is closed this week, but all that means is that I'll have to practice at home.
I've been reading along with this community for a little while now, and am hopefull that just participating here wil be helpful to me. Other online Buddhist communities, I've found (often to the detriment of my ability to speak civily with some of the people there), have little to no interest in actually achieving anything through their 'practice' wanting simply to call themselves Buddhist and make sure that their mala has the right number of beads, their chants are in the right language, or their Buddha statue is properly positioned on their shrine. I'm very grateful that a community such as this exists.
Thanks for the welcome and the advice. I've added a probably too long summary of my path so far to my profile. I definitley intend to try and make good use of the enthusiasm I've suddenly stumbled upon. Sadly, my local meditation center is closed this week, but all that means is that I'll have to practice at home.
I've been reading along with this community for a little while now, and am hopefull that just participating here wil be helpful to me. Other online Buddhist communities, I've found (often to the detriment of my ability to speak civily with some of the people there), have little to no interest in actually achieving anything through their 'practice' wanting simply to call themselves Buddhist and make sure that their mala has the right number of beads, their chants are in the right language, or their Buddha statue is properly positioned on their shrine. I'm very grateful that a community such as this exists.
Jackson Wilshire, modified 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 7:53 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 7:53 AM
RE: Driven to practice
Posts: 443 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
Hi Josh,
I can't even begin to tell you how much this description of your experience resonates with one that I had recently. I won't go in to details, but I can say that when this happens to me I also feel as though I have overcome some obstacles, and that I feel an almost indescribable type of energy pulsing from within. I also find it difficult to work after such experiences (which is rather unfortunate, because the last one occurred while I was taking a walk on one my breaks).
Thank you for sharing your story. I look forward to hearing more from you in the forums.
I can't even begin to tell you how much this description of your experience resonates with one that I had recently. I won't go in to details, but I can say that when this happens to me I also feel as though I have overcome some obstacles, and that I feel an almost indescribable type of energy pulsing from within. I also find it difficult to work after such experiences (which is rather unfortunate, because the last one occurred while I was taking a walk on one my breaks).
Thank you for sharing your story. I look forward to hearing more from you in the forums.
Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 8:14 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 8:14 AM
RE: Driven to practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: josh0
It's good to hear I'm not the only one.
I'm curious if you've ever, in your similar experiences, gotten any concrete ideas about things you should/shouldn't do. I ask because at one point during my experience I suddenly had the insight (for lack of a better word) that I should completely abstain from all alcohol from now on. I know this issue in particular is somewhat controversial in some circles, and certainly it's a complex question personally. The absolute certainty that I felt about this is hard to shake, but at the same time I'm not entirely confident that there's any reason to trust such ideas as being valid rather than just some part of my brain regurgitating things I've heard in the past regardless of their veracity.
My general feeling on and approach to alcohol has been that, while it can certainly be harmful in excess, in moderation it's not an issue. I can certainly see that having alcohol (or other drugs) in your system might interfere with your ability to meditate and/or the quality of your meditation and as such any drinking at all would be an impediment to full-time mindfulness.
Is there any sort of consensus about this sort of thing amongst the hard-core community? Both on the validity of such 'revelations' (and I have little doubt that experiences like this are often misinterpreted as divine revelation), and the harmfulness of alcohol even in moderation.
It's good to hear I'm not the only one.
I'm curious if you've ever, in your similar experiences, gotten any concrete ideas about things you should/shouldn't do. I ask because at one point during my experience I suddenly had the insight (for lack of a better word) that I should completely abstain from all alcohol from now on. I know this issue in particular is somewhat controversial in some circles, and certainly it's a complex question personally. The absolute certainty that I felt about this is hard to shake, but at the same time I'm not entirely confident that there's any reason to trust such ideas as being valid rather than just some part of my brain regurgitating things I've heard in the past regardless of their veracity.
My general feeling on and approach to alcohol has been that, while it can certainly be harmful in excess, in moderation it's not an issue. I can certainly see that having alcohol (or other drugs) in your system might interfere with your ability to meditate and/or the quality of your meditation and as such any drinking at all would be an impediment to full-time mindfulness.
Is there any sort of consensus about this sort of thing amongst the hard-core community? Both on the validity of such 'revelations' (and I have little doubt that experiences like this are often misinterpreted as divine revelation), and the harmfulness of alcohol even in moderation.
Florian, modified 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 8:53 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 8:53 AM
RE: Driven to practice
Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Hi Josh,
My current approach to unusual experiences in meditation is to simply acknowledge them. I use noting, and note "talking" when sudden revelations hit me as fully-formed sentences. This is not to dismiss them, but to be true to the aim of my meditation: now is not the time to philosophize, but instead to pay attention to sensations as they arise and pass away.
When not meditating, a resolve such as abstaining from alcohol can be everything from a useful practice in mindfulness (watch what I'm drinking/eating) to a fully-fledged guilt-inducing neurotic juggernaut perpetuum mobile, which is not useful at all. Try it, but not blindly: pay attention to what happens.
When surfing the euphoria of accelerating meditation practice, my advice is to be wary of sudden lifestyle changes, be they changes in diet, friends, occupation, clothing...
That said, I don't drink much myself.
Cheers,
Florian
My current approach to unusual experiences in meditation is to simply acknowledge them. I use noting, and note "talking" when sudden revelations hit me as fully-formed sentences. This is not to dismiss them, but to be true to the aim of my meditation: now is not the time to philosophize, but instead to pay attention to sensations as they arise and pass away.
When not meditating, a resolve such as abstaining from alcohol can be everything from a useful practice in mindfulness (watch what I'm drinking/eating) to a fully-fledged guilt-inducing neurotic juggernaut perpetuum mobile, which is not useful at all. Try it, but not blindly: pay attention to what happens.
When surfing the euphoria of accelerating meditation practice, my advice is to be wary of sudden lifestyle changes, be they changes in diet, friends, occupation, clothing...
That said, I don't drink much myself.
Cheers,
Florian
Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 9:39 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 9:39 AM
RE: Driven to practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: josh0
Florian,
Thank you, that's very helpful. I'll continue doing what I've been doing and try to just be mindful of such things in the future rather than being caught up in them. I have been working towards varoius lifestyle changes anyway (reducing both my intake of alcohol and of meat, though with no specific plans to eliminate them completely) so it's probably reasonable to think this tendency I already had in my mind was just brought to the fore in the heat of the moment. This was the first time that I've experienced such a thing, at least intentionally, so I've been thrown a bit off balance by it. But I'm trying to move on and continue with my practice and progress.
Josh
Florian,
Thank you, that's very helpful. I'll continue doing what I've been doing and try to just be mindful of such things in the future rather than being caught up in them. I have been working towards varoius lifestyle changes anyway (reducing both my intake of alcohol and of meat, though with no specific plans to eliminate them completely) so it's probably reasonable to think this tendency I already had in my mind was just brought to the fore in the heat of the moment. This was the first time that I've experienced such a thing, at least intentionally, so I've been thrown a bit off balance by it. But I'm trying to move on and continue with my practice and progress.
Josh
beta wave, modified 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 9:56 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 9:56 AM
RE: Driven to practice
Posts: 5 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Josh, I would consider testing that insight out. Cut out alcohol and see what happens.
I'm finding as I'm getting older that I really can't drink after work and meditate clearly. It's either drink or meditate. However, sometimes I also make the decision not to meditate and enjoy drinking.
You really have to figure this out for yourself, but I would say, never look a gift horse in the mouth, in other words: when you are given an insight, you should really try it on for size. (Lot's of metaphores there, but hopefully you get my point!)
I'm finding as I'm getting older that I really can't drink after work and meditate clearly. It's either drink or meditate. However, sometimes I also make the decision not to meditate and enjoy drinking.
You really have to figure this out for yourself, but I would say, never look a gift horse in the mouth, in other words: when you are given an insight, you should really try it on for size. (Lot's of metaphores there, but hopefully you get my point!)
Hokai Sobol, modified 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 10:12 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 10:12 AM
RE: Driven to practice
Posts: 4 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
As to "revelations" re alcohol or anything else for that matter. In states of high awareness one can indeed have inputs of nearly absolute certainty pertaining to any action, or situation. It is dangerous to assume these inspirations are false or wrong. Of course, it's a complex issue, but assuming anything is quite tricky. For example, assuming such inputs of compelling clarity are not to be trusted or considered as significant, would mean one is doomed to live separate from all certainty about one's own actions and should forever rely on external reference for support. It would also presuppose a rather static model of life-conditions wherein decisions on how to live, once established by wise men of old, need not be re-evaluated in best conscience and responsibility by those who engage the path today in dramatically different, open-ended circumstances. Then again, assuming that reliability of any such intimation can be measured by the compelling force of an experience is also misleading. Whichever way, how we interpret our experiences is crucial. Experiences themselves have no meaning at all. In this case, just for the sake of experiment, see what happens if you don't take a drop of alcohol for three months. Hope this prompts something useful.:-)
Jackson Wilshire, modified 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 10:16 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/20/08 10:16 AM
RE: Driven to practice
Posts: 443 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
It's funny you should mention that… actually, yes. Though, I didn't really view it as a revelation, but the thoughts did arise only moments after the experience set in. Honestly, I think I just got excited about how clear my mind and wanted to make sure it could happen again more regularly. This, of course, is a kind of grasping. I'm not sure what to do about that yet. At the same time, I do believe that my newfound interest in abstaining from drinking alcohol could be a positive result of practicing the dharma. As Florian said, it's good to note these experiences and thoughts as they arise in order to see in to their true nature. I'm not good at this yet, but that's why we're all practicing, right? Like Florian, I have to remind myself that I don't need to give a dharma talk to myself during meditation. There's a place for philosophizing, but for me it's not on the cushion.
Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 8/21/08 11:45 PM
Created 16 Years ago at 8/21/08 11:45 PM
RE: Driven to practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: AlanChapman
Hello Josh,
The alcohol question is interesting, but I think it's important not to assign too much value on small personal changes. They can function as a distraction (i.e. I can't make progress until I stop drinking/eating meat/listening to rock music, and so on). For what it is worth, I get drunk and occassionaly take drugs (mainly entheogens/psychedelics) and although I read somewhere that Ken Wilber loses his 'one taste' whenever he drinks, it has never made any difference to my insight progress. And I have a damn good time too! Of course, a dirty hangover certainly hampers meditation practice, but I actually find it sometimes make some states more accessible (although I'd never get a hangover for this reason).
As for the insight, you'll soon find this will be supersceded by an insight of a completely different order with regular practice (the diffiuclt part is not investing the new insight with same feeling of finality - 'this is it!'). It's really handy to adopt a system for categorising your experiences - I can't tell you how many times I've had an experience I've considered really profound, only to regret making a fool of myself a few weeks later. As Florian says, don't worry about hubris; concentrate on correct practice and finding where you are at (if this was an A&P, you'll soon know because you should be able to identify the following Dark Night).
Have you considered getting a journal and recording your practice and its results? A page a day, miss it and it's left blank. A book such as this can be a wonderful spur...
What do you practice at the moment?
Hello Josh,
The alcohol question is interesting, but I think it's important not to assign too much value on small personal changes. They can function as a distraction (i.e. I can't make progress until I stop drinking/eating meat/listening to rock music, and so on). For what it is worth, I get drunk and occassionaly take drugs (mainly entheogens/psychedelics) and although I read somewhere that Ken Wilber loses his 'one taste' whenever he drinks, it has never made any difference to my insight progress. And I have a damn good time too! Of course, a dirty hangover certainly hampers meditation practice, but I actually find it sometimes make some states more accessible (although I'd never get a hangover for this reason).
As for the insight, you'll soon find this will be supersceded by an insight of a completely different order with regular practice (the diffiuclt part is not investing the new insight with same feeling of finality - 'this is it!'). It's really handy to adopt a system for categorising your experiences - I can't tell you how many times I've had an experience I've considered really profound, only to regret making a fool of myself a few weeks later. As Florian says, don't worry about hubris; concentrate on correct practice and finding where you are at (if this was an A&P, you'll soon know because you should be able to identify the following Dark Night).
Have you considered getting a journal and recording your practice and its results? A page a day, miss it and it's left blank. A book such as this can be a wonderful spur...
What do you practice at the moment?