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New Wilber interview on BATGAP

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New Wilber interview on BATGAP
Answer
5/2/18 1:02 PM
https://youtu.be/T1eOUIt4zUE

I'd be interested in hearing reactions. In particular, the "lines of development" model is relevant to the discussions here about saints/psychopaths, myths of enlightenment, psychological/emotional work, etc. 

RE: New Wilber interview on BATGAP
Answer
5/2/18 11:08 PM as a reply to Ward Law.
Oh snap - good eye!  I'm about to check this out.

RE: New Wilber interview on BATGAP
Answer
5/7/18 4:38 AM as a reply to Ward Law.
Really interesting!
Pitfalls like Wilber talks about I have encountered:
a) Having transcended my personality to a degree, but wondering why "my wisdom" is invisible to others. So I gained insight, which changed not much about my psychological self. And others in genereal couldn't care less about your grade of realization.
b) Encountering shadow aspects, but not working them out, only using them for insight practice. Much of it was not integrated and went wild.
c) Seeing shadow aspects as not important, because if there's no attachment, I won't suffer from it. Yeah sure we are just the viewers of reality, but who whants to see a shitty reality all the time?
d) Relying on "waking up" to do the work for "cleaning up" - which it mostly doesn't

Hindsight is easier than foresight I guess emoticon

RE: New Wilber interview on BATGAP
Answer
5/7/18 5:35 AM as a reply to streamsurfer.
streamsurfer:
Really interesting!
Pitfalls like Wilber talks about I have encountered:
a) Having transcended my personality to a degree, but wondering why "my wisdom" is invisible to others. So I gained insight, which changed not much about my psychological self. And others in genereal couldn't care less about your grade of realization.
b) Encountering shadow aspects, but not working them out, only using them for insight practice. Much of it was not integrated and went wild.
c) Seeing shadow aspects as not important, because if there's no attachment, I won't suffer from it. Yeah sure we are just the viewers of reality, but who whants to see a shitty reality all the time?
d) Relying on "waking up" to do the work for "cleaning up" - which it mostly doesn't

Hindsight is easier than foresight I guess emoticon
I listened to most of the podcast. I'm conflicted about Wilber these days. Something seems off, but I can't quite put my finger on it. I used to go to an Integral Meetup group. Seems like maybe some of the people there hadn't progressed enough in terms of waking up--they used to mock Theravada Buddhism specifically--but were obsessed with self-development in other areas in a way that was narcissistic, given the lack of progress on the waking up front. So many of the Integral people have also been suckered by the likes of Genpo Roshi and Andrew Cohen--gurus feeding them non-dual one-liners and taking their money. I dunno. But clearly there's value in the notion of the shadow and in the idea of cleaning up and growing up, but maybe keeping all of this in perspective is important?    

RE: New Wilber interview on BATGAP
Answer
5/7/18 6:35 AM as a reply to Tashi Tharpa.
I have to mention that I do not know Wilbers work in detail, besides that interview.
I agree with you, there's the inverse version of unbalanced development, too.
If you are at certain stage of awakening, you have the benefits, and nobody can take it from you, and you don't need to fake it.
Same with personal development. You may not even know you reached a specific psychological level of ego-development, but it will shape your life anyway.
But if one pretends to be at a certain stage of whatever axe of development, one lives in constant fear (if it is obvious to that person or not), that a person or circumstance will take it away and the true status quo will be revealed. And therefore anything not fitting in like it should be will be surpressed.
Problem is, if you are doing that, you don't know it. That's why I feel compassion for such a behaviour. On the other hand, your illusions need to be destroyed that one can be freed from his own prison..

An interesting excerpt from Phil Hine - Condensed Chaos:
(I hope that isn't a  copyright violation?)

The more value that we place on upholding a particular
emotional pattern, the more likely it is that all ambiguous
signals will be perceived as supporting it. Evidence which
counters it will most likely be overlooked or rationalised into
a more malleable form. Conflict arises when dissonance occurrs
between desires and existing mental constructs (have you ever
feared the strength of your own desires?). To cope with such
conflicts, a variety of Defence Mechanism can be adopted:

Aggression
A typical response to frustrated desire and loss of control; loss
of devouring dreams. We can direct it at the source of our
frustration, or direct it onto others.

Apathy

Loss of control - loss of face and self-worth. The machine
stops.

Regression
Adult, who me? A return to a child-like mien. Cry hard enough
and someone will come and comfort us. Perhaps we have learnt
that through tears, we can control others.

Sublimation
In other words, putting a brave face on it. Re-directing the
energy into a more acceptable form. But demons are cunning.
Kick them down the front stairs and they will come sneaking
round the back, waiting with spider calm until you leave the
door of your mind ajar.

Intellectualisation
Displacing feelings with words. A quick lie for the aesthetic
becomes a fast buck for the lay analyst. Such strategies are
normal; that is until they become obsessive: a locked-up loop
automatic as breathing. Out of control.

Fantasy
Fantasy is the cornerstone of obsession, where imagination is
trussed up like a battery-farmed chicken; catharsis eventually
becomes catastrophic. Walter Mitty lives in all of us, in
varyingly-sized corners. We use “starter” fantasies to weave
meaning into a new situation, “maintainer” fantasies to prop
up a boring task, and “stopper” fantasies to persuade ourselves
that it’s better not to ...


RE: New Wilber interview on BATGAP
Answer
5/7/18 8:53 AM as a reply to streamsurfer.
streamsurfer:


Sublimation
In other words, putting a brave face on it. Re-directing the
energy into a more acceptable form. But demons are cunning.
Kick them down the front stairs and they will come sneaking
round the back, waiting with spider calm until you leave the
door of your mind ajar.

Intellectualisation
Displacing feelings with words. A quick lie for the aesthetic
becomes a fast buck for the lay analyst. Such strategies are
normal; that is until they become obsessive: a locked-up loop
automatic as breathing. Out of control.

Fantasy
Fantasy is the cornerstone of obsession, where imagination is
trussed up like a battery-farmed chicken; catharsis eventually
becomes catastrophic. Walter Mitty lives in all of us, in
varyingly-sized corners. We use “starter” fantasies to weave
meaning into a new situation, “maintainer” fantasies to prop
up a boring task, and “stopper” fantasies to persuade ourselves
that it’s better not to ...

Yeah, for me--those last three! Gotta watch those. LOL! 

RE: New Wilber interview on BATGAP
Answer
5/7/18 10:20 AM as a reply to Ward Law.
I watched the whole thing at one go last evening. He repeats himself a lot, but in a way that’s good, because it drives the point home. Got some of his recent books on Kindle as well. 

I thoroughly appreciated what he has to say about the various axes of development—waking up, growing up, cleaning up, and even showing up. The interviewer, Rick Archer, has said many times in interviews with people that he thinks humans are on the cusp of something big, with a growing number of people awakening, and that it will change the course of history. He said so in this interview, but Wilber immediately countered that waking up alone won’t do it. It was a sound observation. 

One thing Wilber says that resonates for me is that people in the past did not have the conceptual tools we do now, e.g. insights from the field of psychology, so you’d have saints in the Christian Middle Ages who had had spectacular awakenings but who were entirely ethnocentric in their outlook. I taught the medieval period as a history professor, and was always dismayed to find people like St. Bernard of Clairvaux, a powerful mystic and lead preacher of the Second Crusade. The person who came closest to overcoming ethnocentric religion was St. Francis of Assisi, who even expressed kinship with animals. 

RE: New Wilber interview on BATGAP
Answer
5/7/18 11:32 AM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Laurel Carrington:
I watched the whole thing at one go last evening. He repeats himself a lot, but in a way that’s good, because it drives the point home. Got some of his recent books on Kindle as well. 

I thoroughly appreciated what he has to say about the various axes of development—waking up, growing up, cleaning up, and even showing up. The interviewer, Rick Archer, has said many times in interviews with people that he thinks humans are on the cusp of something big, with a growing number of people awakening, and that it will change the course of history. He said so in this interview, but Wilber immediately countered that waking up alone won’t do it. It was a sound observation. 

One thing Wilber says that resonates for me is that people in the past did not have the conceptual tools we do now, e.g. insights from the field of psychology, so you’d have saints in the Christian Middle Ages who had had spectacular awakenings but who were entirely ethnocentric in their outlook. I taught the medieval period as a history professor, and was always dismayed to find people like St. Bernard of Clairvaux, a powerful mystic and lead preacher of the Second Crusade. The person who came closest to overcoming ethnocentric religion was St. Francis of Assisi, who even expressed kinship with animals. 
Yeah, these are good points. Maybe I sometimes let some of the things I dislike about the Integral movement color my overall impression of the ideas. 

RE: New Wilber interview on BATGAP
Answer
5/7/18 10:21 PM as a reply to Ward Law.
The overall thesis sounded plausible to me, but I had some lingering doubts... It seemed a bit over-generalized, claiming none of the ancient traditions could incorporate Growing Up or Cleaning Up, because the ideas were only developed a couple hundred years ago.

I don't know a lot about ancient Buddhist or Hindu culture. To me, compassion for all sentient beings means All, regardless of race, religion or gender. Did it mean something different to the Buddha? And certainly the New Testament has Jesus preaching about compassion and tolerance as well. Just because many followers of the great teacher didn't get the message doesn't mean the message wasn't there...

But moving on to Cleaning Up... He talks a lot about shadow sides, and unless I'm mistaken, the idea comes from Carl Jung. Jung, after deciding that Freud was a nut, started studying midaeval alchemical manuscripts. He realized that the imagery of the drawings was the symbolic language of the subconscious; alchemy very heavily influenced the development of his ideas. In other words, "cleaning up" wasn't a totally new idea in Europe.

I get the impression that some Buddhist systems also work with shadow sides, but again, I don't know enough to be sure...

RE: New Wilber interview on BATGAP
Answer
5/7/18 11:03 PM as a reply to Steven E Barnes.
I also noticed how adamant Wilber was being about all saints etc having been ethnocentric and no tradition whatsoever understanding adult development or the shadow. Of course, if we soften the statement, he's right. Also, the general point (which Shinzen also makes) that we should be innovating on traditions and not taking them as perfect seems correct to me.

But, for example, I don't personally believe that no tradition or subtradition or teacher throughout history understood that demons are a representation of the human shadow, etc. I'm fairly certain that, at least, Crowley understood that (before Jung published, I believe), and his teachers also.

Does Wilber look like an evil sorcerer to anyone else or is this a projection of my shadow

RE: New Wilber interview on BATGAP
Answer
5/8/18 3:17 AM as a reply to Dada Kind.
Dada Kind:


Does Wilber look like an evil sorcerer to anyone else or is this a projection of my shadow


Haha, same here emoticon I was a little scared when I first saw him.
Reminds me of Jordan Peterson saying, that the general facial expression of some of his clients change with progress of therapy, as they psychologically integrate dark shadow stuff. They loke more badass so to say.

What I found useful is, that Wilber says you have to own the shadow aspect as yours and then integrate it, not just only vipassanazing from a safe distance. Sounds right to me, if you own it, you can control it.
Besides, what you don't own, can hurt you. For example, if you meet a mostly malicious person, which attacks you with all the shadow aspects you don't want to see, you are powerless. That sounds extreme, but in my eyes that even starts in situations, where someone is trying to convince you to do something, and you aren't able to give a simple "no"...