Author: AlanChapman
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

I recently came across an article by Stanislav Grof over on Daniel ‘Stop the Burning Man - the end is here!’ Pinchbeck's Reality Sandwich website. Here's the link:

http://www.realitysandwich.com/spiritual_emergencies

In the article Grof presents an event he calls the ‘spiritual emergency’, where an individual undergoes a difficult stage in a process of personal transformation and ‘spiritual opening’. He goes on to say that this event ‘can be found in the life stories of shamans, founders of the great religions of the world, famous spiritual teachers, mystics, and saints’. Is Grof describing the Dukkha nanas or the Dark Night here?

Rather interestingly, Grof cites ‘various shamanic methods, Eastern meditative practices, use of psychedelic substances, effective experiential psychotherapies, and laboratory methods developed by experimental psychiatry’ as possible catalysts for the event.

Is it really possible that the consumption of entheogens can lead to or function as the Arising & Passing Event?

(cont.)

Author: AlanChapman

Remarkably, Grof goes even further:

‘In many instances, it is possible to identify the situation that precipitated the psychospiritual crisis. It can be a primarily physical factor, such as a disease, accident, or operation. At other times, extreme physical exertion or prolonged lack of sleep may appear to be the most immediate trigger. In women, it can be childbirth, miscarriage, or abortion. We have also seen situations where the onset of the process coincided with an exceptionally powerful sexual experience. In other cases, the psychospiritual crisis begins shortly after a traumatic emotional experience…Similarly, a series of failures or loss of a job or property can immediately precede the onset of spiritual emergency. In predisposed individuals, the "last straw" can be an experience with psychedelic substances or a session of experiential psychotherapy.’

Grof does concede however that:

‘One of the most important catalysts of psychospiritual crisis seems to be deep involvement in various forms of meditation and spiritual practice.’

Do you think perhaps Grof is misidentifying certain unpleasant experiences as the Dark Night? Or is he not talking about the Dark Night at all?

Could he be right – can losing a job really inaugurate the insight process?

I think it should be fairly obvious that drugs can catalyze the A&P. Which is cause enough to stay away from them, at least prior to some wisdom. Some psychdelic substances are little more than a short cut to the psychic powers--i.e., high energy, strong concentration states--so I don't think this would be surprising. I have little doubt that many, many individuals are in the Dark Night and don't know on account of drug use. Do you know anyone who took a lot of psychdelics and now spends a lot of time with prescription sedatives or psychiatric meds?

On the other hand, I don't know one instance of anyone who's made use of drugs to complete an insight cycle.

On the other hand, I think something like losing a job may cause some crisis of identity, but it seems to me unlikely that it will cause a fundamental crisis. At the same time, some people have certain proclivities that lead to this type of thing. There are people who get A&P events just because their kamma lines into place while they're stepping off a bus, e.g., so I think this could be harder to judge.

Author: AlanChapman

Nathan: 'Do you know anyone who took a lot of psychdelics and now spends a lot of time with prescription sedatives or psychiatric meds?'

I do, but I would hesitate to say they are in a Dark Night. Psychedelic experience can bring up lots of shadow stuff unrelated to the insight cycle, and there's the bigger issue of the lasting effects of Set and Setting when taking a drug. Habitual use of a drug and the entertainment of negative self image when in such a highly suggestible state can lead to a whole life time of pain and medication.

Nathan: 'There are people who get A&P events just because their kamma lines into place while they're stepping off a bus, e.g., so I think this could be harder to judge.'

I'm completely down with this, and so I see no reason why a psychedelic event can't take the place of 'stepping off a bus'. So I guess a more important question then is: can the use of psychedlics as a habitual and dedicated practice engage with the insight cycle? Or are psychedelics simply one amongst many 'intense' experiences that might occur as an A&P?

To be even more clear, can we really say that an intense experience (such as childbirth or trauma) can actually *trigger* an A&P or Dark Night? Or are these experiences always simply subjective and relative shallow surface expressions of a deep, spiritual process that is already underway?

I think it's both. That is, there are advantages to both perspectives. The usefulness is determined by the level of one's discernment, and also by whether the perspective makes sense with the model-reality one is engaged in.

Author: buffduff

Spiritual Emergencies are absolutely real and common. I guided someone very close to me through one this year, and it was frightening for me, but ultimately transformative for her. Hers was kicked off by an overly intense 3 day "personal transformation" seminar, and included intensely vivid visions, speaking in tongues, shaking, and other wacky stuff. Unfortunately at one point we had to visit the ER due to the emergence turning into emergency. We are lucky to live in Boulder--most of the psychiatrists and psychotherapists here are familiar with Spiritual Emergency. Anywhere else, she would have been locked up in a padded cell.

I don't think Spiritual Emergency can be reduced to the dark night. I think it's more accurate to say that it is a very intense experience of spiritual awakening that can traverse several stages (and perhaps any stage) of the insight cycles. The person I helped through her experience had several fruitions within her several day journey.

Jack Kornfield has an entire chapter on similar kinds of things on the spiritual path in A Path With Heart entitled "The Spiritual Roller Coaster: Kundalini and Other Side Effects."

Hi Duff,

Glad you decided to contribute to the thread. I agree that spiritual emergencies can't be reduced to the dark night. It's also true that spiritual emergencies don't always have to do with progress on the insight front. It's tricky to say that the intense experience you're describing was in fact related to the insight cycles or that fruitions were involved. Just because there is a lot of intensity to an experience doesn't mean that fruition was involved. There are tons of other experiences that can make one think they've experienced fruition (the A&P being chief amongst them), especially when far-out experiences are involved. This is where it's very helpful to have teachers involved who can sort these things out, otherwise there's a very real danger of confusing experiences.

I think your "trigger" question is about causality. I suspect that any of the events you mention are not going to result is a strict discrete effect. It's too case by case to serve as a basis for any general rule. That's my guess.

But that said, I'm very interested in what degree Spiritual Emergencies really are or are not related to A&P and dark night. I suspect that they are more are than commonly recognized. So many of my friends that are kind of fucked up also have had momentary experiences where they knew they were something beyond themselves, knew that they were fundementally immortal, knew that they were relating to the world using ESP/psychic powers... I'll bet that they all had some elements of A&P but completely interpreted it from a very ego-centric view point and so lost the essence of the event. So much of spiritual emergency and dark night seem to come from an ego faced with losing it's power/control, yet holding on anyways -- and so becoming more and more distant from what is actually occuring for them. (Lots of drama.)

Can anybody think of a method that would allow an answer to be developed scientifically? It's difficult because so much depends on interpretation... and frankly I'm too close to the dark night to really have any perspective.

Author: AlanChapman

For me this brings up the question surrounding how much value is placed on dedicated practice that results in insight. If we were to talk about vipassana instead of entheogenic consumption, is there really any value in saying that vipassana is incidental, or just a surface feature of a process that is going on any way? I certainly suspect that every experience is just a surface feature of something that is much deeper and happening regardless, but as this must include the epxerience of dedicated practice too, it makes this viewpoint practically redundant.

So it only seems to make sense to me to take the pragmatic angle: do work and results occur. Some people don't need to do work, and the same results occur, so it doesn't matter to these people anyway.

Of course, we're all familiar with the alternative: adopt the 'it all happens cosmically/naturally/anyway' , which is fine for the people who get the results without practice, but leaves those who need practice as part of that 'natural' process right up shit creek.

I think the problem here, is that this is probably a stage-specific question. I sometimes wonder this as well, and I'm pretty sure this is a 3rd path inquiry, as at this point the process literally seems to be doing itself. On top of that it's difficult to remember when it wasn't like this, as it becomes so normal. That being said, It's clear to me that there was a time when a shit-load of specific effort was needed to cross the A&P and to attain fruition. It definitely wasn't happening by itself, but rather took a concerted effort. I would argue also, that it takes a very concerted effort for a vast majority of people. There may be a couple of rare people for whom it's quick and takes relatively little effort (one can think of an Eckhart Tolle or Ramana Maharshi here) but the problem is, even for them there was a massive turning point, an experience that catalyzed the process (it didn't simply happen by itself).

They still had to do some work, and still needed a push. Also, look at the effectiveness of some of the folks who woke up without little effort (or woke up not understanding the process of awakening). They so often suck at guiding others in the process, because they may not get that it takes most others a significant more time and effort then it did themselves.

It seems to me the process that is happening beneath the surface has more to do with the compulsion to wake up, not the actual awakening process itself (that is until after stream-entry). The compulsion needs to be married to a good technique for investigating reality, the proper amount of effort, and good guidance and maps. When all those things come together, then the process really begins to gain momentum.

Author: buffduff

I agree that it can be helpful to have teachers who can sort these things out, although since teachers are hard to access in an ongoing way nowadays, most of us are stuck figuring it out alone and/or with sangha.

From hearing the precise descriptions of her experience, it does seem that fruitions were involved in this case--at least as how is described by Daniel Ingram in his book.

It can be difficult to access teachers, but not really all that difficult if it's a priority. If someone thinks they are in the dark night, thinks they are enlightened, or has had a spiritual emergency where spiritual practice involved, my personal feeling is that it should be a high priority. The danger in not doing so is that, if you're friend is not enlightened (and perhaps even if they are), they could potentially be confusing psychic experiences, mind-blowing A&P events, formless realms, or any other number of experiences that are common on the spiritual path, with fruition. The problem then can be in cultivating those experiences again and again and thinking they are enlightenment experiences, when potentially they aren't. And even if they are a teacher can help us figure out what was what, what to cultivate and what to avoid.

The reason I mention this isn't to say your friend didn't have an authentic enlightenment experience just that it's way more common for someone to think they're enlightened when they're not than it is for someone to make correct assessments of their practice. Correct assessments are difficult enough w/o a teacher, let alone when they're being made based on the descriptions from Daniel's book (though that's a good place to start). So, really, I'm trying to say that it's best not to make claims (especially for others) when it's unclear as to what has actually transpired. The spiritual territory is vast and deep and contains many, many experiences that can fool one into thinking they're enlightened. They could well be, but I think it's best that we do our due diligence w/r/t these claims and err on the side of skeptical doubt, as the alternative can lead to many problems.

This question is an interesting example how the language of Science can suck the spirit and soul out of a phenomenon, leaving only dead, lifeless manner. In a tribal culture, assuming they formulated the Arising and Passing Event in approximately the same way, the question wouldn't even have been conceived of - the consumption of an entheogen would have been considered an encounter with a powerful plant spirit. Here language forces us to consider a powerful subjective experience initiated by biologically assimilating/consuming a plant derived material (potentially linking us with the entire biosphere) as "really just" consumption of a particular molecule that interacts with 5HT2 receptors in the brain initiating a cascade of neurophysiological events we experience as "trippy." (Incidentally it was recently discovered that psychedelic substances have specificity for certain orbito-frontal signaling pathways that SSRIs do not have affinity for - this explains why the latter do not have psychedelic properties).

My basic position on entheogens is that they trigger already existent neurophysiological mechanisms in the brain that most likely are the same one's involved in spiritual experiences that do not involve explicit entheogen use. It is well known that endogenous DMT is produced by a pathway for transmethylation apart from the usual SAM route, and this found favor for a while as an explanation for schizophrenia. It's unclear what the etiology of spiritual experiences are, whether you ascribe to the maps or not, but one likely explanation from this point of view is that they are epiphenomenon of plasticity or brain remodeling and bear some similarities to the processes of dream states that involve neural network pruning and psuedo-rehearsal. They may be REM breakthrough states rather like those induced by some compounds (and this is also somewhat my hypothesis regarding the psychedelic experience). D

(That should have read "dead lifeless matter" in the first sentence). Psychedelic compounds are known to create a hyperplastic state in the brain, and it is likely that spiritual experiences do as well. This is consistent with the idea that they might create persistent changes in cognition (e.g. Bodhi). Regardless of the specifics of the neurophysiological component, this does not invalidate them metaphysically or experientially - I can change your brain's chemistry by giving you bad news, and the studies show many of the same changes in brain metabolism when one undergoes therapy or takes antidepressant drugs - and then we have the 50% placebo response in children to psychopharmacological intervention - so there really is no separating it. Potentially they can be a powerful tool, but could probably also cause harmful setbacks if used improperly.

Having said all that - they are the least addictive and neurotoxic psychoactive agents available (with the exeception of MDMA which has properties of an amphetamine) - if you give a chimpanzee an entheogen, they will not take them (unless they have been exposed to many other psychoactive compounds) - but if you give the same chimp an unlimited supply of cocaine it will kill itself inside two weeks. I've seen only two patients in my career who had a permanent psychotic condition that seemed to have been triggered by these compounds, and they probably had a genetic vulnerability that might have manifested anyway. Incidentally, my wife (a psychiatrist) recently examined a student that consumed a heroic amount of marijuana and seemed to have what looks very much to me like the "Arising and Passing Event" complete with increased insight and life changes (changed from Republican to Democrat) - as Daniel astutely points out in his book, this is quite difficult to differentiate from a manic episode, and I'm having her read the book.

Finally, I had extensive experience with these in my youth, and probably did complete an insight cycle with their help (though I've just recently figured this out retrospectively, with some difficulty), and without the use of maps or teachers. I'm probably a special case though because I did work my ass off, and did many, many hours of Zazen meditation with nothing on board (3-5 hours a day for several years). I did phenomenological reductions, as described in another thread. The way I did the psychedelics was to take them by myself, be very observant, and when over carefully document every state. I'd then spend the next weeks or months training myself to return to the states I described. Then I'd do it again and use those states as jumping off points for the next experience and repeat the cycle. I'm the kind of person who would take large doses to more closely examine the unpleasant sensations of the Dark Night and confront them, without knowing that it was "Dark Night" or have any idea that I would pass through it eventually. My motivation was to deeply understand the nature of Reality without any preconceptions of what that meant - Bodhi was not in mind as an end result - it might have been in the back of my mind as a possible side effect.

Since my early 20s though, psychedelics have not been very helpful as my consciousness is so fluid that they just don't add that much, and I have better control without them (with the exception of smoked DMT and quantities of psilocybe cubensis in excess of 10 dried grams which are quite interesting and temporarily yield states not normally accessible for me - but haven't done these in years). In short, they are potentially quite useful, but clearly dangerous, and I wouldn't necessarily recommend doing it the way I did, because I would without hesitation say that it's not any easier, and might be harder in many respects. David

Just a few things:

1) I know of two people at least who crossed the A&P the first time using drugs: one on 4 hits of LSD, one on mescaline. It is actually pretty common. I know of no one who managed to finish an insight cycle through the use of drugs.

2) The A&P leads to the Dark Night, in one form or another, like lightening leads to thunder.

3) Getting back to BuffDuff, it is very hard to sort out A&P events, unknowing events, formless realms, dissolution, and other experiences from Fruitions without lots of repetition and good guidance. I am guessing that of the very many emails I get where people describe some mind-blowing experience that changed their life and they are pretty sure was either stream entry or arahatship, 99.999% are the A&P on closer inspection. Thus, even with my book, people screw this up all the time, so read carefully the chapter called "Was that Emptiness", and read carefully the many places where I mention that the A&P and many other events can fool people into thinking they were Fruitions. Read all the criteria, as there are many, and some of the most important have to do with natural cycling, the sequence of these events, what comes next, whether or not these are reproducible and become more and more common, rather than fading to some distant transformative process like the A&P does. I don't know the person in question, but I know that blowing this and misinterpreting experiences as being more than they are is way, way, way more common that getting it right, and I know this not only from the hundreds of people I have had the honor of helping through this territory, but also from screwing up in my own interpretations of my own experiences hundreds of times if not more. Thus, be warned: play it cautiously, go for reproducibility, look at the bigger patterns, find friends who know this stuff cold, and keep practicing well. I'd be happy to help.

Author: AlanChapman

I completely agree, and that's very much my point: it's all too easy for many people to ascribe to a viewpoint peculiar to a stage in the process that they are most certainly not at yet (such as the 'you cannot become what you already are' stuff).

I think this problem is compounded by the point you make about fast developers who then go on to teach the above viewpoint without realising it is unhelpful to someone who hasn't landed 1st Path yet. A stonking example is Andrew Cohen. No doubt enlightened, but an absolutely useless guide, teacher and facilitator of the process (I mean, shaving your head and standing in a lake? Not a clue!)

Author: AlanChapman

‘Dan: 1) I know of two people at least who crossed the A&P the first time using drugs: one on 4 hits of LSD, one on mescaline. It is actually pretty common. I know of no one who managed to finish an insight cycle through the use of drugs.’

Why do we think that is? Might it be something to do with the fact the A&P can result from certain intense experiences, whereas the Dark Night can only be navigated through persistent investigation, hence repeat drug experiences lead nowhere?

This might also explain Grof’s conviction that child birth or emotional trauma can lead to a spiritual crisis (the A&P followed by the Dark Night). It’s interesting that he posits guidance and help is required to get through the crisis, but do we think this might be a simple case of ‘safely’ sliding back down the stages (or perhaps becoming stalled in one of the stages of the Dark Night), as opposed to preceding to equanimity and fruition?

It certainly seems to explain a lot that the A&P and the Dark Night both require very different approaches, hence the large number of Dark Night Yogis but the relatively small number of fruition monkeys.

Ah, I didn't entirely realize that you were trying to make the same point.

And wow, I didn't know Cohen had people shave their heads and stand in a lake in the name of insight! I know he was a student of Christopher Titmuss for some time, had a falling out with him, and then had some sort of awakening experience with Papaji. Given the good stuff I've heard about Titmuss, through Daniel and others, it would make sense that perhaps he doesn't know what he's talking about.

s it possible that this notion might represent a Western bias? What about the use of Soma in the ancient world? Should we entirely discount all shamanic traditions, and all shamans throughout history as not being enlightened?

I'm not sure if I'm the "person in question" Daniel mentions, but hopefully he feels comfortable addressing me directly. It's entirely appropriate to express skepticism, and one should take this attitude with their own experiences. I've mused that aside from reasons of motivation and the injunction that "things can sometimes get rough emotionally, and they will eventually pass, so don't mess your life up over it" there might be no reason to fool with maps or assessing your own stage of development, given that the prescription for what you do at any point in the game, including Buddhahood, is pretty much cultivate the three trainings and keep meditating. My first reaction was therefore to shrug and say - "yep, probably the A&P" as it doesn't seem to matter too much anyway. In thinking about it I realized that that was counter to my purpose in participating on the discussion board, as I am at least curious, and want to know how much remains to be done in order to triage my time and effort. I can say without a doubt that I have fair mastery of concentration states, approach this subject matter extremely rigorously, have had literally thousands of experiences that would meet criteria for the A&P (though not this many for the "Event") and can seemingly produce those experiences at will. I've read those recommended sections several times now, and the particular experiences I'm interested have upon reflection, met all the relevant criteria I've seen mentioned (though I could well be wrong). So I'm at the point where I need help with that to make further determinations. Incidentally the vast majority my work did not involve entheogens.

Dear Haquan,

I was actually very specifically mentioning the female BuffDuff was discussing in his post, hence my addressing that section to him. Sorry if you somehow read it as a critique of your experiences.

As to your notion that the maps are not that important or that one should perhaps not address one's stage of development, I disagree wholeheartedly, as I have expressed in many places here and elsewhere. So many people make so many errors of so many kinds when not using good criteria that I am astounded that people would want to stumble and crash around without them, as even with them there is much stumbling and crashing around, but at least it is much more likely to lead to the good stuff and less likely to cause wanton confusion and disfunction. I know well that the criteria work when properly applied, you really can sort out most of what was what, and that people tend to do much better when they have a heads up to the territory, what to look for, what to avoid, how to compensate for the frequently difficult or confusing aspects of the path, etc.

As to shamans: I simply don't know enough personally to talk from experience, as I personally know none who are enlightened. I was a sound man and roadie for rock bands for 6 years, so I do know a whole lot of people who have done a whole lot of psychedelic drugs, a good number who have done them hundreds to literally thousands of times, and often in high doses, and none got enlightened that way, though plenty had tastes of interesting, if relative, territory, for better or for worse. I have read a moderate amount of shamanic stuff, and it all seems to be about content, sometimes about very insightful content, but content nonetheless. My own experiences tell me that those things do not lead to the level of pristine, balanced, all-encompassing clarity that cuts through the core of the thing, though they definitely can cause A&P events.

i'm someone who crossed the a&p several times on entheogens during my formative years; whether or not the first of those instances was my first time across is an unanswered question, with evidence to support answering either way. a lot was changing at the time and i don't know how much of it was due to movement in an insight cycle, and how much to psychological development. the two overlapped heavily and thinking it through further doesn't seem fruitful, especially since i can't clearly recall most of it. that's not because i don't recall what happened by the way. it's more like i don't remember what it was like to be in those shoes then.. the past kind of fades.

i agree with nathan that use of these things can lead to a kind of stasis. i wasn't then nor am i now on any sedatives or prescriptive meds (though toward the end of the period i was tripping out, sedatives did seem appealing).. but i can relate to why someone might be on them. i felt like i didn't know how to cope with such an arbitrary life i didn't much enjoy, and knowing about all these things that seem real, possible, and potential, yet somehow out of reach.. and not knowing how to go about getting to them.. and a weariness about being on the road toward them at all.

Author: Dan_K

I will volunteer that my spiritual journey was kickstarted by a large dose of psilocybin mushrooms. I spent the peak lying on the floor of a pitch black room, and had a death experience. Watching myself fade away was wrenching, and for a ‘second’ I was dead. When I emerged there was no ‘Dan’ and I was ecstatic, aware that my mind was gone, and in contact with something that I understood to be the zenith of creativity, the aspiration of every artist, the answer to every problem. I remember mentally referring to my figure as “the body” rather than me, which seemed completely natural, as I was clearly not that body. I had profound emotional release, feelings of unity, etc. Of course, “I” returned, regrettably. No other entheogenic experience has ever come near this, for me. I have had spontaneous movements, subtle energy/kundalini experiences, archetypes of the unconscious, raptures, etc. on other occasions with and without entheogens.

While a lot of the experience was content based, somehow I managed to lose my sense of self temporarily. Previous to that, I had never heard that such a thing was possible. I looked up ‘ego death’ on the net when I came down and processed the experience, and the rest is history.

Maybe this counts as a particularly insane A+P, but I really don’t know.

Author: AlanChapman

I've had such intense and diverse experiences with entheogens that I find it remarkable that anyone could be certain they have had an A&P as a result. If anything, I would say I've mostly exprienced formless realms and the lower jhanas - states as opposed to stages, which includes the A&P. I guess a Dark Night popping up just after the event might be an indicator, but how do we distinguish between the emotional and physical comedown of an intense mind blowing experience and the dukkha nanas? Or the psychological dependence that can arise from habitual psychedelic use, which can include fear, anxiety, depression, etc when not off your face?

The fact that I'm still not all that skilful when it comes to mapping my progress makes me hesitant to even try and work out where I might have been over a decade ago when I was enjoying all manner of strong psychedelics (my memory of that time can be a little hazy).

I recently experiemented with 5-MEO-DMT and Ketamine, and although I had experiences that might sound like the A&P (my soul left my body, my ego disappeared, I experienced unity, euphoria, etc), I'm pretty sure they had nothing to do with the stages of insight. I wrote up my experiences here:

http://www.thebaptistshead.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=346&Itemid=40

Dear Daniel,
That's more than ok - my experiences need to be critiqued, I just wasn't sure who you were referring to. So even underestimating one's development is a poor strategy? Well, I suppose there could be no harm in it providing the maps are not arbitrary. I'm about 80% sold on the idea of maps, and it might be a fun and instructive debate at some point. It may be that similar to what Winston Churchill said of Democracy, "it's the worst strategy possible except for everything else."

That's actually a fair criticism of the shamanic tradition, and one I concur with.

Back to the main point: by searching Soma and Buddhism I was able to find one article so far (I'm doing this all by iPhone) in the Journal of Ethnobotany suggesting that certain Buddhist adepts between the 2nd and 9th century used Soma (thought by most scholars to be made with the amanita muscarina mushroom) to obtain enlightenment. I can't speak for the quality of the article yet.

Author: buffduff

I should add that I don't have 100% certainty by any means that my friend had a fruition. I also don't particularly care, given that she is still practicing, still studying (including reading Daniel's book The Core Teachings of the Buddha), and still seeking a teacher. It seems to me that it was a fruition, but I could be wrong.

If she was claiming enlightenment, proselytizing to others, in an obvious Dark Night, or not seeking guidance and clarification from those who have gone down the path before, I might be worried.

That said, I wonder if this is why practitioners don't normally discuss attainments. I don't think a fruition is that big a deal, and getting it wrong I consider a minor mistake that will be corrected with additional practice. But I could be wrong about that too!

The practice is the same no matter where you are on the path, so it seems--keep practicing with precision, noticing sensations without attachment.

I have both spiritual LSD experiences and A&P phase experience through standard insight practices. My LSD experiences were 12-15 years ago. My traditional meditation experiences are over the last 18 months.

The first of time I took LSD my experience had similarities to strong A&P phase states. Time was slowed, sensory experience can take on both particle and wave characteristics and mindfulness was higher. The world took on a magical/mystical quality similar to being on retreat. However there are also many other distortions that do not correspond to intense meditative experience and there is much less control over what happens.

My second trip was a bad one and it seemed more like the Dark Night. Subsequent LSD trips were less memorable and I never ramped up the dosage.

Overall there is far less lucidity and control in the drug experiences.

Another interesting drug/meditation correlation in my experience is Ecstasy (about 13 years ago) and Knowledge of Equanimity. The drug induced state has a lot in common with states that arise in this phase. Though as with LSD and has been echoed elsewhere I know of no one who has experienced fruition or stream entry based on drug use.

The one value I attribute to having used these drugs in the past is I have developed a facility with managing some very interesting and out of control experiences so that when they came up in retreat, I didn't freak out.

In fact I would say the 3 most helpful experiences I've prepping me for intensive retreat practice are my drug experiences, boot camp and reading Daniel's book.

Now that I'm online with the laptop again, momentarily (I'm on vacation) it's easier to post references. The article I'm referring to is entitled "Soma siddhas and alchemical enlightenment: psychedelic mushrooms in Buddhist tradition" and can be purchased here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T8D-3YVD0GD-B&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c566865e0d9a18895f8507cd231d7c70
(students may be able to get it for free)

The abstract reads "In the legendary biographies of some Buddhist adepts from the 2nd- and 9th-centuries there are some clues which can be interpreted to reveal that the adepts were consuming psychedelic Amanita muscaria, ‘fly agaric’, mushrooms to achieve enlightenment. This secret ingredient in the alchemical elixir they used to attain ‘realization’ was, of course, unnamed, in keeping with their vows to maintain the secrecy of their practices. Its identity was concealed behind a set of symbols, some of which appeared in the Soma symbol system of the Rg Veda, some other symbols possibly passed down from a time of earlier shamanic use of the mushroom in the forests of Northern Eurasia, and some symbols that may be unique to these Buddhist legends. The congruity of these sets of symbols from Northern and Southern Asian traditions will be shown to be reflected in the Germanic tradition in some characteristics of the Oldest God, Odin."

In addition there are books such as "Zig Zag Zen" which implicates the use of entheogens at the very roots of Buddhism and helping to form it's basis. Finally, in the book "Entheogens and the Future of Religion" Jack Kornfield gives an inteview in which he takes a "I'm not going to say 'no,' but if you do, be moderate." position towards entheogens. We have to take all this seriously.

Haquan, I wouldn't take the references you give seriously, because of their extremely tenuous interpretation of symbolic descriptions, that interpretation being supported by nothing from the Buddhist esoteric tradition itself. Furthermore, the meaning of awakening (bodhi) and especially realization (siddhi) is often vague and sliding in esoteric texts on purpose. In short, there isn't a single lineage of transmission in Tibetan and Japanese Vajrayana that would accept such an interpretation. This doesn't mean that certain Indian tantric adepts haven't consumed "illicit" substances, but to interpret those substances as generative of awakening or realization is something else altogether.

As to Zig Zag Zen and Jack Kornfield's generous license, it's better not to retro-fit those perspectives on the tradition itself. If someone wants to teach or practice psychoactive substances in dharma, there's no need to force the tradition in order to appear more orthodox.

Again, I refuse to take such attempts at re-interpretation seriously.

I'll take your word for that for now, as I haven't read the article yet and won't probably have time until next week. Certainly such assertions have to be considered critically, but I don't think that they necessarily deserve to be discounted out of hand simply because the point of view is not supported by orthodox Buddhism. Zig Zag Zen makes the case that entheogens were present at the inception of Buddhism and it's unclear at this point whether how strong the evidence is, and how much of it may be retrofitting. It does seem significant that an entire Veda (the Rg Veda) is dedicated to the use of a psychedelic substance (Soma).

To Alan, I maintain the point of view that entheogens shouldn't privileged any more or less than any other physiological means of enhancing meditative practices, such as fasting (utilized by the Buddha) or sleep deprivation (utilized by Taoist monks) - the experiences should be judged on their own basis and merit without reference to such physiological considerations. The asana itself could be considered a mild form of sensory deprivation, pranayama has direct effects on blood pH and has direct effects on consciousness. The same criterion should be used in separating insight stage cycles from psychiatric disorders in considering whether the experiences are "authentic."

All that being said, practically speaking, my own opinion is that used judiciously, particular substances can be helpful. One should approach them rather like a bodybuilder approaches a steroid program - learn as much as one can, and take them in a very controlled moderate manner at stages in which one is stuck on a plateau. Taking them to "party" is not helpful. One should be mindful of both set and setting and attemp to use them in a "sacred" context. The other thing is that a criterion for authenticity should be reproducibility when not chemically enhanced. D

hi alan,

speaking personally, just being sensitive enough to how things are has *almost always* led to the world temporarily turning into sensate experiences coming and going in a way that includes, in them, the sense of observing (or its absence).. and it was this way before i had any inkling what insight practice was, or that it was something to learn. most of the times i remember this happening were right before falling asleep, or while i was on psychedelics. i know there's stuff in buddhist theory about people's minds being inclined in different ways, and i can understand that there may be some degree of temperamental or perspectival difference to account for. but at the same time i think there could also be something universal about it. i think crossing the a&p is just something that's waiting to happen.. it doesn't take much to trigger it. my guess is it could show up in some kind of intense samadhi as well.

i think a good way to recognise the dukkha nanas, short of being acquainted time and again with the physical frequencies that pervade them (and having the sensitivity to perceive those frequencies), is by the persistence and recurrence of their symptoms, particularly in the face of pleasant everyday circumstances.

on another note, i read about your experiences with 5-meo-dmt and ketamine with interest and want to thank you for sharing those. i generally agree with your assessment of how sudden self-loss can be more challenging to those who have not undergone identity shifts. then again, someone i knew, as an anagami, said he had one of the worst experiences of his life when he drank ayahuasca.