Message Boards Message Boards

Wetpaint Migration 4

anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?

Toggle
anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 8/28/08 12:43 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Florian 8/28/08 4:56 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 8/28/08 8:54 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Frater Geur 8/28/08 9:24 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Nicola Joanne Dunn 8/29/08 4:18 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 8/29/08 8:00 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Chris Marti 8/30/08 7:15 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Nathan I S 8/30/08 10:23 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Vincent Horn 8/30/08 2:06 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 8/31/08 12:18 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Vincent Horn 8/31/08 3:50 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Chris Marti 8/31/08 6:14 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Vincent Horn 8/31/08 7:24 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 8/31/08 7:28 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Chris Marti 8/31/08 9:22 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/1/08 3:09 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/1/08 3:10 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/1/08 6:49 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/1/08 7:05 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/1/08 7:22 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Chris Marti 9/1/08 7:52 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/1/08 8:03 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/1/08 8:15 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Mike L 9/1/08 1:43 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Chris Marti 9/1/08 1:47 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/1/08 8:17 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Daniel M. Ingram 9/1/08 8:36 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Daniel M. Ingram 9/1/08 8:52 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/1/08 10:01 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/1/08 10:31 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/1/08 10:33 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Nathan I S 9/2/08 4:06 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Florian 9/2/08 7:23 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Florian 9/2/08 7:28 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Daniel M. Ingram 9/2/08 7:49 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Daniel M. Ingram 9/2/08 8:18 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Frater Geur 9/2/08 8:40 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/2/08 11:40 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Daniel M. Ingram 9/2/08 11:43 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Chris Marti 9/2/08 11:49 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/2/08 11:09 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/3/08 5:42 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Florian 9/3/08 6:36 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Vincent Horn 9/3/08 7:20 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Hokai Sobol 9/3/08 7:38 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/3/08 1:11 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Vincent Horn 9/3/08 2:14 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/3/08 10:55 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/4/08 5:39 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 9/4/08 5:58 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? beta wave 9/5/08 12:42 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Hokai Sobol 9/5/08 3:42 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Chris Marti 9/5/08 9:54 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Wet Paint 11/13/08 12:31 PM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? beta wave 11/14/08 1:23 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Chris Marti 11/14/08 8:47 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Nathan I S 11/14/08 11:17 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? Chris Marti 11/15/08 2:08 AM
RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits? beta wave 11/15/08 5:19 AM
Author: MagicianOfChange
Forum: Practical Dharma

I have been doing a lot of body awareness meditation and I have found a reoccurring theme is various contact with what appear to be squid-like beings in the non-dualistic vision. Before I began meditating, in pitch darkness or with my eyes closed I use to see different colored patterns, and I had really bad sinus head aches.

Through meditation, I have learned to relax my sinus and jaw but now I find I have aches and pains in my body which move around. Frequently they tend to end up over my face and frontal cranial area. At which point I sometimes see what appear to be squid-like forms in the darkness at night overlayed on the colors and patterns that I saw before. Sometimes these things have quite a bit of detail, and remind me of various deep sea life forms, other times they seem more like energetic scum.

Generally, I try to extract them from my body through various methods although it seems when old ones are removed, new things come in to fill the space, throughout the day. I will feel the space in my sinus cavities fill up, and it feels like things are moving around in there. Sometimes their origin feels external, other times internal. Has anyone experienced anything similar to this? Does anyone know of any readings, schools or modalities that deal with this kind of thing? I've been looking into Shamanistic paths, but they are not easily assessable.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/28/08 4:56 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi MagicianOfChange,
I must admit that I am unfamiliar with the term "non-dualistic vision" - could you elaborate a bit?

Investigating pain (if not too overwhelming) and my reactions to it have been part of my insight practice for a while now. There's a thread http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/thread/1450785/Meditating+on+Dukkha with good advice in it.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/28/08 8:54 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

Oh sorry, well you know when you close your eyes in darkness, what do you see? I use to not pay much mind to the strange colors and patterns I see when I close my eyes. But that is more or less what I'm talking about. Also, I think you can find it if you defocus your eyes and look for stuff that looks like the heat radiating off roads. Its kind of a subtle shimmering around people, plants, and animals ( I think these are auras). I think its called non-dualistic because it is not dependent on the amount of light available. Or perhaps I made up the phrase. Sorry if I sound like a crack pot.

You know, more related to your topic, I find the feelings of "aversion" are not always correlated with pain. I find aversion more to emotional, neurotic issues rather then physical pain. I'm pretty comfortable feeling pain. I kind of revel in the indulgence of focusing my awareness on the pain, exploring all sides of the area that is painful, the back, the front, the sides. Its kind of aggressive, sharp. I attack the pain with my awareness. Eventually it seems to get annoyed and moves somewhere else. Then I follow it, and push it around till I can push it out of my body in one way or another. Thats when these ghost things start appearing. Its really quite strange.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/28/08 9:24 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi MagicianOfChange!

Good advice from monkeymind, as ever!

My thoughts: I'd approach the Shamanistic path with caution. This would probably tend to reify the visions as spirits. That can be helpful in the short term, but longer term (presumably) you're trying to grasp the fact that their true nature is essentially empty. (At least, that tends to be the aim of the people around here!) The way that all sensations are ultimately empty is what people commonly mean when they use the term 'non-dual'. If you're talking about seeing auras around living things, the more usual term is 'etheric'. Or if you're talking about visible colours and shapes that appear when you close your eyes, these might be 'hypnagogia' (a kind of mental imagery) or simply light shining through your eyelids and making patterns.

Another possibility, however, is 'synaethesia' - which is when certain types of sensations arise in the mind as imagery connected with a different sense. For example: if you're feeling pain, but experiencing the pain as visual imagery, then this is a form of synaesthesia where tactile sensations are finding expression in visual imagery. Personally, I get this too, and it can be confusing sometimes. Ultimately, however, the visual and tactile sensations are just sensations, and can be worked on in the usual way.

Your sea creatures reminded me very strongly of the 'sea snakes' in Coleridge's poem, 'The Ancient Mariner'. First, the mariner views the snakes/squids with disgust. Ultimately, however, they are the source of his liberation. You might like to read or re-read it, to see how the mariner dealt with them!

Duncan.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/29/08 4:18 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hmm... I get odd things in my eyes, if I close my eyes it's not solid colour, there's tons of things going on at once. Same if I open my eyes and concentrate.
They called it Myers-Irlen syndrome though...

If you're getting pains in your head and odd visual effects, you could be getting migraines. You don't even have to have pain to have migraines, I've had non-pain migraines and lost large parts of my vision as a result at times because of them. It might be worth getting it checked out medically, and then going back to seeing if it's something else after that.

Nicola

Djon Ma

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/29/08 8:00 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

Wow this is an amazing post. Thank you for the vocabulary suggestions. Some research would suggest this phenomenon to be etheric vision. There isn't really a correlation between pain and sight. And I've also seen these spirit things outside my body too, although the only way I can really tell is by rotating my head and seeing if the critter rotates as well. I looked in the hypnagogia and this appears to be related to a stage before sleep. This stuff happens at night pretty much any time I don't feel congested.

As far as the emptiness of spirits, they seem a lot easier to see as empty then another human or my own body. I see the awareness of absolute emptiness as just another state of awareness, spirits or no spirits. But I agree its easy to get all excited like the people you hear on late night talk radio, claiming to be experts on the paranormal, etc.

Regarding the Ancient Mariner, that is very interesting. I must read the poem in more depth. Love is never a bad move, but its hard to love things you don't understand. I've actually tried talking to them with my mind. I find thinking a question, and then sometimes a definitive answer pops in to my head, a thought that appears before the rational mind can formulate a hypothetical "answer." For example, "Who are you?" yields the answer, "We are you." Not very helpful, but I may explore more of this.

It seems to be no less helpful then talking to your self. Maybe I have multiple personality disorder. Maybe I'm beginning to understand those old people you see wondering around muttering to themselves. Or maybe this is the universe resolving the dualism of the self and other.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/30/08 7:15 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Maybe I'm misreading this topic, and I certainly don't mean to be a curmudgeon but I have to ask you guys -- why does this kind of thing matter? As far as I can tell, the mind will try to find meaning in everything and if no meaning is readily apparent it will quite readily make something up. I think getting interested, too interested, in objects you "see" during meditation is a good way to get sidetracked. What's more important to me, and you can take this with a grain of salt if you wish, is the actual process involved in experiencing - a sight, a sound, a mental image, a phantasm passing through our perception while on the cushion. The object is not the point. The process is. Objects come and go with great frequency. Our perceptive process (dependent origination, if you will) stays with us all the time.

Yes? No?

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/30/08 10:23 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Well, if you want to work with those squids, you have to pretend they're real. I tend to think that any spontenously appearing entity is just looking for a hand-out though.

Classic advice my teacher hands out all the time: "it's just an energy release."

Unless I am very sleepy but able to maintain some mindfulness, I rarely experience visions anymore, but I'll be the first to say that it takes a great deal of tranquility, concentration, and mindfulness to work with them. The last time I experienced anything worth mentioning in this vein, I found that sometimes I could examine what I was seeing in terms of the five aggregates, and also seeing the process of intention behind a vision, like what might happen with dream yoga, but more often it was necessary for me either to just return to the breath, to raise energy, to open the eyes.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/30/08 2:06 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi Cmarti,

I'm glad to hear you mention insight practice, and the difference between trying to figure out what some vision means and how, if one were so inclined, that this content could be related to in the context of insight practice. That being said, I think if the question is coming from the context of concentration and the powers, and one isn't really all that interested in dissecting it via insight, then it could be a relevant question.

Many people, it seems, have to make sense of their strange meditation experiences before they're able to penetrate them with insight, no matter what they are. Other people seem to be able to do that right from the get go, and still others don't really have that many weird experiences. And then, there are the folks that really aren't interested in insight, and who may spin endlessly in trying to figure out what a vision means, whether it's a being or not, etc. until they either get tired of it, find some satisfactory resolution and move on, or not.

Personally, I'm all for moving on and getting highly enlightened and then seeing how much this stuff really matters from that perspective. But then again, more and more, I'm seeing that as a stylistic preference, and not necessarily the best way to approach the vast territory of awakening.

Glad you brought this question up...

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/31/08 12:18 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Tracy.

Hey Vince, could you elaborate on that a bit?

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/31/08 3:50 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi Tracy,

Sure, I can give it a try. What I was trying to get at here, is that there seem to be at least two different approaches to awakening. One metaphor I like to describing these two different approaches goes something like this: One person (this would be more like me) is standing at the edge of a cliff looking down at the sea below. They jump off the cliff and go sailing toward the water. Let's call the water arhantship, though I suppose it could be a lesser degree of awakening as well such as stream-entry. Then after they get out of the water, they start climbing back up the cliff, slowly and deliberately exploring all the interesting territory of the cliff as they go back up. The cliff can be seen as all of the other dimensions of awakening, that perhaps aren't directly, though are certainly indirectly, related to the path. This could include concentration states (jhanas), the siddhis, subtle energies, lucid dreaming, other altered states of consciousness, disowned shadow material, even perhaps personal development technologies.

This person's approach was to go straight for awakening and then re-engage with the vast territory of the mind's potential after dissolving the center point (or at least having some fundamental understanding of emptiness). The next person who is standing on the side of the cliff, chooses instead to climb down the cliff, exploring all of the various facets of the cliff on the way down. They reach the bottom of cliff, and slide into the water. I need not go into all the specific here, but think of the Tibetan tradition as it's generally practiced, and you might get an idea of this person's path. The Rinzai Zen tradition is perhaps a good example of the opposite path, as it's fairly intense & fast (from what I hear) but then has a very systematic training for post-enlightenment.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/31/08 6:14 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi, Vince.

When I started my practice I was, like many very early practitiners, inordinately focused on having interesting experiences. If something like that happened during an hour of meditation then I though I'd had a good session. If not, then I thiought I'd almost wasted the hour. It took quite some time for me to realize that this is a wrong-headed approach. So I guess I approach practice with a distinct bias. This bias has been proven to be the best path for ME to take. I'm not so foolish as to believe it's the best practice for everyone. I suspect that "the" path is really an almost infinite number of different paths and that there is a path that is unique to every practice.

By the eway, I'm still an early practitioner.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/31/08 7:24 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi Cmarti,

Yes, I'm very much with you in this regard. When I started shifting away from having wonderful experiences, to seeing what is true of all experiences, my insight practice certainly began to take off. I suspect that is true for most people, and might even be indicative of a general developmental unfolding.

Then again it's hard not to ignore the stylistic approaches that I outlined above, and in doing so one begins to wonder what are the best ways to present the dharma to others. Are some people simply more prone to explore the territory, take their time, and gain a fuller understanding of the path as they go on, or are some simply more prone to go straight for it and then back-track later (or not)? And if so, how can we identify these tendencies and nurture them (both in ourselves and others)? These are all questions I find myself wresting with these days...

So, all in all, I wasn't trying to contradict your challenge (which I personally was thinking as well) but was rather trying to affirm it and try and place it within a larger context (a meta-context if you will) by which we can question the very assumptions we have when we give suggestions, present challenges, etc. w/r/t dharma. :-D

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/31/08 7:28 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

Interesting perspective Vjhorn. Coming from the Tibetan perspective I would hesitate to make a distinction between the cliff and the water below. To me it seems that the Tibetan path starts with the premise of the inseparability between nirvana and samsara, the cliff and the river. We weave that into our practice so deeply that eventually it becomes a type of blindness. Rather then settling for the river or the cliff we are forced to pass through this duality to complete awakening.

The interesting thing I have found while practicing this is that the completely awakened state is actually fully present at all moments. What people seem to forget is that part of the fully awakened state is the dualism of ignorance. We are always partially ignorant and partially aware of the transcendent state. As the state of fully awakenedness transcends all dualism, it must also be composed of the dualities. Thus being ignorant of the fully awakened state is actually part of the fully awakened state.

In addition, part of enlightenment is not being enlightened until the correct moment. The Tibetan tradition takes a vow to postpone enlightenment until all beings are enlightened. I think this is a little simplistic. What would be more appropriate is to vow to follow the Tao to become enlightened. When we learn to follow the Tao, or natural path to enlightenment, all beings will naturally become enlightened because everything is fundamentally connected.

In so much as we fail to follow the Tao, we will sow the seeds of Karma of the next existence. And in this way actually still follow the Tao. After all, if the entire universe spontaneously dematerialized into Buddha fields, things would be pretty dull. And so the universe flows into being, constantly changing, constantly becoming more subtly beautiful, more robust, like a 14 billion year old Pino Noir. Life is good. Drink it. Be happy.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
8/31/08 9:22 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Vince, I hear you and I agree.

Peace!

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 3:09 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: AlanChapman

Hello Magician of Change!

‘Coming from the Tibetan perspective I would hesitate to make a distinction between the cliff and the water below. To me it seems that the Tibetan path starts with the premise of the inseparability between nirvana and samsara, the cliff and the river. We weave that into our practice so deeply that eventually it becomes a type of blindness. Rather then settling for the river or the cliff we are forced to pass through this duality to complete awakening.’

Until you are enlightened, the distinction between nirvana and samsara is apparently self evident. This is, after all, the illusion or ignorance we are trying to overcome and the reason for these practices in the first place. What you are describing is the experience of enlightenment; but until you have that experience, this kind of thinking can be incredibly misleading.

‘The interesting thing I have found while practicing this is that the completely awakened state is actually fully present at all moments.’

Are you an arahat?

‘What people seem to forget is that part of the fully awakened state is the dualism of ignorance. We are always partially ignorant and partially aware of the transcendent state.’

I’m afraid I disagree. For the first 26 years of my life I never had any experience whatsoever of the ‘awakened state’. I had to bust my nuts with meditation and magick before I even got a sniff of it.

(cont.)

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 3:10 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: AlanChapman

‘As the state of fully awakenedness transcends all dualism, it must also be composed of the dualities. Thus being ignorant of the fully awakened state is actually part of the fully awakened state.’

Please – how is something beyond duality composed of duality? How is ignorance equated with being ‘awake’?

Are you speaking form experience here? Or have you been reading and thinking a lot? What practice do you maintain? What progress have you made?

‘In so much as we fail to follow the Tao, we will sow the seeds of Karma of the next existence. And in this way actually still follow the Tao.’

Again, are you speaking from experience? Or do you know a reliable witness for this kind of thing?

‘After all, if the entire universe spontaneously dematerialized into Buddha fields, things would be pretty dull. And so the universe flows into being, constantly changing, constantly becoming more subtly beautiful, more robust, like a 14 billion year old Pino Noir. Life is good. Drink it. Be happy.’

Bugger enlightenment then.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 6:49 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

We can only be experts at talking about ourselves. I'm not even good at that. I have no qualifications. My favorite past times are going parties, masturbating, drinking and doing drugs. In fact, don't believe anything say. I am a complete fraud.

But if something I said was insightful to you, if it rings true to you, great! Listen to yourself. Trust yourself. But if not, I am just another lunatic ranting in the street. The same goes for the Buddha, Karl Marx, Jimmie Hendrix and all the rest of humanity. We are all made of meat.

Now that we have that cleared up. The things I say come from all over the place. I didn't make anything up. When I write, I piece together everything I hear from people that I found was insightful. Personally, I believe that every religious doctrine, every path has truth to it. I try to see that truth. To do that I use some experience, some reason, some intuition, some speculation.

I think it was said by someone that enlightenment is recognizing that everyone you meet is enlightened. I don't dare claim to be that way, but I do a lousy job trying.

And yes, bugger enlightenment! There is no goal, only a path.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 7:05 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

O come now. Your telling me that in 26 years you never smiled just because you were alive? You never looked into the night sky and marveled at the vastness of all things? You never felt love from anyone including yourself? It sounds to me like you don't appreciate what you have.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 7:22 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

Look, have you ever sat down and made a shopping list, and then gone to the grocery store only to realize you left it at home. You can't remember any of the items on the list, but for some reason when you walk down the isle you pick them up anyway. Now tell me, were you ignorant or did you remember all of the items you had to buy? At any given moment you had no recall of anything yet somehow at the end of your trip, your cart had everything you needed in it. This is the nature of the duality of ignorance and non-ignorance. In the same way, the entire universe is our grocery store and each item is a star in the sky.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 7:52 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Once upon a time, I went to the grocery store with a grocery list I'd made up well ahead of time. I managed to buy all the itms that were on my list, and even a few extra things. Those extra things weren't on the list I made ahead of time, but they must have been on the list I didn't make ahead of time, so when I bought them I was experiencing the Nirvana of the Blessed Ignorance of those things I didn't know before but knew afterward. This state of bliss, this amazing experience of non-dual duality, is often called "hindsight" by those who have no idea what the true meaning of the Nirvana of the Blessed Ignorance is.

And they lived happily ever after!

The End.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 8:03 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

But you see this conversation illustrates my point. If my words were perfect you would be instantly enlightened. The conversation would be over. Because I fail perfection you ask me a question. To which I try to respond and the cycle continues. In each exchange we transfer information. We grow. We get better at listening, and better at speaking.

It is the same way with all things. This is Karma. Karma in totality is a bulletin board discussion the universe is having with itself. So yes this bulletin board conversation is my experience and I am witnessing it. This is my credential.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 8:15 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

Well I think there are a lot of people who don't appreciate profound wisdom in humble places. One of my favorite koans goes, "A monk asked the master, 'What is the Buddha?' The master responded, 'Two dry turds.'"

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 1:43 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
'nuff said

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 1:47 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Yes. Time to put him on "ignore."

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 8:17 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

Hey guys, the spiritual trollness was a joke. I realized I might have made some people upset, and set that as "spiritual troll" as an act of acknowledgment. I also am passing through some darkness in my life so the world troll is actually a bit more serious. Christ, look at my picture. It creeps me out.

I do actually take every word I say very seriously, even when it appears to be in jest or mockery. Spirituality and humor go hand in hand, but I do not compromise meaning for humor.

But it is very difficult to convey meaning when I can't watch people to see if they understand me. This is my first time wiking, so please withhold judgment. "Judge not lest you be judged."

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 8:36 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
I think that you are confusing slightly extraordinary occurrences and feelings with a more strict definition of enlightenment. While the group here might vary somewhat on what exactly that definition was, I suspect that the definition would involve something like seeing the true nature of phenomena in some way that cuts through dualistic and unitive viewpoints, cuts through the sense of their being a special center/controller/doer/perceiver/etc., involves Fruitions, seeing emptiness in realtime, or something in that general territory, and nothing particularly to do with shopping lists, enjoying life, or the like.

As to squids, eyelid colors, visions and the like, as many have mentioned very skillfully above, at some point one does have to take a stand as to how one wants to play it: the quest for meaning or the quest for fundamental insight into the universal characteristics of phenomena. Most visions arise in certain stages, such as around the A&P (described in posts elsewhere) and others, though plenty of people, through focus or natural talent, can see them at times or often, and then one can decide: do I want to try to figure out what they are in the conventional sense, what they mean, what their message is, what I can get from them, what flavor of ice cream they prefer, etc., or, on the other hand, do I want to just see them as more sensations, arising and vanishing, causal, not self, not other, just as more transient phenomena, just more flickering stuff, more opportunities to progress in basic wisdom into how things are and who I am.

I like a weird-ass vision as much as the next guy, but I am glad that followed in the path advocated by Vince Horn and others: got enlightened in the grand old technical sense early and they tried to sort the rest out from that vantageless vantage point, which is to say I have no more idea why sometimes weird things pop up than I did before, and c'est la vie.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 8:52 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Oh, yes, to MagicianOfChange: the whole thing about "words are imprecise" gets old quick. This place should be about specific practices, how to deal with things that come up, down to earth stuff about how to gain deep insight and meditative skills, how to apply specific concepts to practice, how to integrate these things into our lives, etc. so try to focus on that and less on the spiritual basket case thing. Keep it down to earth and simple, practical, applicable, straightforward and the like, please. The guardians of this place, which include me, have been criticized for being too lenient in the past, and we probably have, but my advice is: don't press your luck, clean it up, and listen when the group is advocating for you to do so. Judging is actually the job of the monitors, and while an imperfect process, it is important and necessary. Figuring out who is just some new blogger getting overly excited vs. who is someone we can help with their hard time vs. who is just a narcissistic whackjob polluting the space is not always clear, but be aware that we are constantly asking the question and respect that.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 10:01 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

I realize the wise thing might be to abandon them, but sometimes they call out to me for help, or try and share themselves. Seriously. From what little I've seen, it seems like a whole different plane of existence, with beings just as human and alive as those that walk this earth. I am reminded of stories of monks who ignored the crying, starving dog in the street to peruse their practice in the monistary. I'm a crappy buddhist I guess, but I am constantly drawn to people, plants, animals, sights, sounds, tastes, emotions. But I can't pick which is the best, so I cling to everything.

I think I might have experienced what you call enlightenment last winter anyway. It was pretty amazing, and most of these rants have been formulated from various transcendental states from that period. I'm not really sure if it was total nirvina. It didn't last. But it didn't need to. I have faith in it. As the space ended, I felt my awareness shrink back to its its old space and it was natural and normal. I don't know about you, but I can't live a day to day life, have a day job and be the entire empty universe in all times and places simultaneously. Its asking a lot and its not necessary. That is why ignorance is a helpful tool.

I realize enlightenment is more like what you say it is, but the way you describe it doesn't seem vary practical to me, so I try to make every day analogies. I have found analogies to common life experiences can give people a hook to work with. But people on this site seem to think they are annoying.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 10:31 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: AlanChapman

‘We can only be experts at talking about ourselves.’

Nonsense. If you go to university you can become a maths professor and become an expert in maths, regardless of what your favourite colour is or whether you enjoy masturbating (if you get a girlfriend/boyfriend you can replace that with sex – it’s much more fulfilling you know).

Why can’t you take up an actual practice – hint:: reading a lot is not a practice, neither is regurgitating someone else’s apparent ‘insights’ – gain some experience of enlightenment and become an expert in the field?

‘We are all made of meat.’

Did your complete awakening reveal this profound truth?

‘O come now. Your telling me that in 26 years you never smiled just because you were alive? You never looked into the night sky and marveled at the vastness of all things? You never felt love from anyone including yourself? It sounds to me like you don't appreciate what you have.’

Oh I did all that stuff and more besides. IT HAS NOTHING WAHTSOEVER TO DO WITH ENLIGHTENMENT. I know this because I have experienced all of those tings, and I have significant experience of the process of enlightenment too. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

‘I think it was said by someone that enlightenment is recognizing that everyone you meet is enlightened.’

They sound like a loser with absolutely no experience of enlightenment. Can you guess how you sound by repeating this crap?

(cont.)

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/1/08 10:33 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: AlanChapman

‘Look, have you ever sat down and made a shopping list…’

Yes, but I’ve also sat down everyday for years to practice vipassana, self enquiry and centred prayer. WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ENLIGHTENMENT. I know this because I have experienced making a shopping list and forgetting it, and I have significant experience of the process of enlightenment too. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

‘If my words were perfect you would be instantly enlightened.’

Well, MY words are perfect, and yet YOU remain unenlightened. What do you think this says about enlightenment? Do you think perhaps offering descriptions of enlightenment is not a PRACTICE that will lead to personal direct experience of awakening?

‘Hey guys, the spiritual trollness was a joke. I realized I might have made some people upset…’

Please don’t mistake my directness for anger or upset. Believe me, I know this is a joke.

‘But it is very difficult to convey meaning when I can't watch people to see if they understand me. This is my first time wiking, so please withhold judgment. "Judge not lest you be judged."’

We all have that same difficulty, and yet we all get along just fine. I think the problem is you don’t understand what this wiki is about. We are all here to judge - not each other, but our practice and its results.

So please:

What do you practice?

What results have you enjoyed? Where does this enlightenment you experienced fit within the Theravada model? Or any model? What if it wasn't enlightenment, but a very well known event within the process of enlightenment called the Arising & Passing event? Was it a formless realm and so nothing to do with the process at all?

Do you need any help with finding a useful practice that will lead you to personal, direct experience of enlightenment?

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/2/08 4:06 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Well, just speaking relatively, the thing about visions is, that when they resolve here on our "plane" it tends to be way more boring than the actual experience. Even those dramatic-seeming "psychological insights" that many seem to crave and that occur spontaneously as a result of concentration are way more quotiditan than they seem at the time, e.g., "i should really have a doctor look at that". I remember for a few mornings i would wake up, meditate, and go back to sleep before getting ready to go to work. I'd have visions of strange things picking through my trashcan for two or three days. I cleaned my room. The "visits" stopped.

More "absolutely", while I don't really like "the maps," I found that some familiarity with them can bring much clarity re: practice, as can having a teacher. I've found that knowing that practice brings about discrete, if idiosyncratic, results brings a certain perspective. Likewise, for me, having someone say "that's just an energy release" or "is that really serving you?" or "you need more concentration" every time someone, myself included, has some wild experience they want to share can be quite helpful in this regard

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/2/08 7:23 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi MagicianOfChange,

I've found that emoticons can help a lot (took me some time to figure this out - and I still don't really like using them). Many people have trouble with dry, deadpan humor in real life, and it's worse in electronic written communication.

On a completely different subject: you experience compassion towards those squid ghosts. So what are you going to do? One neat framework in Buddhism is the three divisions of the noble eightfold path: Morality, Concentration, Insight. Applying this framework to the question, you might actually try to "help" those guys (e.g. send them loving-kindness or some related practice), do the shamanic thing you mentioned (which I would place in the "concentration" division), or observe them as just another sensation or "energy release", not trying to solidify the experience, nor getting involved in its implications, but noticing the three characteristics wherever they show up. Each approach, or "training", has its merit, and all three should be practiced in a balanced way.

Hang around, and you'll soon learn how to pontificate like this in front of the newbies, too. ;)

Cheers,
Florian

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/2/08 7:28 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Oh, I forgot: I'm not advising to train *all three* disciplines with those ethereal cephalopods. Pick one (me, I'd go for either loving-kindness or insight).

Cheers,
Florian

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/2/08 7:49 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
More stuff,

MagicianOfChange seems to have the following:
1) A deep interest in the dharma
2) Moderate to strong synthetic abilities regarding teachings, however distorted and intellectual
3) Had a profound experience some time back that blew his mind and he things might have been enlightenment
4) Visions
5) Now admits he is having a hard time and is a bit of a handful

All this to me screams: A&P to Dark Night with little guidance about what that was and how to keep it in perspective, probably with somewhat more narcissistic stuff than is typical, moderate personality quirks, and a strong intellect, but I think that the often tense conversation that has resulted really has some good points to it, and it has been fun seeing the members of this place shine, which ironically they often do most when someone like this shows up.

Thus, the task here is to see if we can get MOC to ground it down, figure out what A&P and Dark Night mean and what comes next and how to get there, get a clear grasp of the 3 Trainings outlined above so skillfully, and all before he drives us nuts, assuming the lightbulb wants to change.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/2/08 8:18 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Typo: THINKS might have been enlightenment. Sorry about that.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/2/08 8:40 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Just to support MonkeyMind on this - and to underline how it really can help to deal with weird experiences - the last time I went on retreat, it turned out the bedroom I'd been given was haunted... No, really! Or so it seemed, anyway... On a number of occasions I was visited in the night by a ghost (a woman) that one night got into bed with me, and on a couple of occasions seemed to try to suffocate me... I took this to my teacher, who was by no means as skeptical as I expected him to be. He mentioned that the Buddha himself had given advice on such things; the Buddha recommended responding to disconcerting apparitions like this with compassion and loving-kindness... I won't labour the details, but it worked - very impressively... MagicianOfChange, if you're serious about dealing with the issues that currently confront you, I'd be surprised if there's not everything you need to know in the responses you've received on these pages!

Duncan.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/2/08 11:40 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

Thanks Florian. The encouragement is helpful. I was about ready to drop this whole site before you responded.

I think you are right about practicing the eight fold path in a balanced way. But I really need to refresh myself on Buddhist language to communicate with these people better. I studied it years ago, and set it down.

Regarding the spirits, at first I tried to just observe all this stuff. But sooner or later I felt like I was being eaten alive by a billion different energetic critters, and I felt compelled to act. And in retrospect I have a strange understanding of the story of Gulliver in Lilliput.

Initially I went through a sort of purging philosophy. I tried to project various energies, at them, mostly loving kindness, and suffering, in the hopes of getting them to leave. This was very helpful for some time.

Along the way I found that when I looked at people, plants and animals or just pictures of them, my head, if it was more or less empty, would start to fill up a bit. This happens unintentionally and in a more pronounced way when I did it intentionally. Sometimes I get headaches or uncomfortable pressure in my head too.

So the at some point the purging technique became a loosing battle. Now I'm trying to develop a more moral, compassionate path. I've been interested in permaculture lately. So I think what I am going to try and do is grow a spiritual fruit tree forest garden. I'm going to try to cultivate an ecosystem of plant and animal spirits that feed me in one way or another by selective concentration. Eventually they will live harmoniously and I will have to put very little effort into it.

Preliminary results are positive. I find after I hike in a lush forest, visions turn from squids, and scum, to natural critters: spiders, ferns, etc. I suspect the consequences of this path will be I will become some kind of shamanic healer.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/2/08 11:43 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Nicely put.

To MOC: It is true that those here tend to find bad models of enlightenment annoying, which, being relatively different from what you find most other places, could be a bit surprising, particularly considering the strength of the reactions. However, as the prevailing trend in the spiritual world is to use models and have expectations that are so bad, so random, out of touch, confused, mundane and woefully idealistic, and given that these cause so much misguided effort, failure, confusion, and complexity, and given that there is a pretty good crew here, a fair number of which actually are enlightened in the good old technical sense of the thing to various degrees and a number of which have strong insights and very solid technical and theoretical understandings of very good dharma, it is not surprising that they would, in the spirit of countering unhelpful dogmas and dreams with strong rhetorical force, take issue with the presentation of anything except a really clean, practical model of awakening. Sorry if that was a bit of a shock, but realize that is the great strength of this place, and, while potentially off-putting, is in fact quite rare and very valuable for those who can make use of that sort of fine company and honest feedback.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/2/08 11:49 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
"... the task here is to see if we can get MOC to ground it down..."

Sure.

Magicianof Change, I'm willingto cut you some slack *IF* you communicate respectfully with the rest of us. I haven't seen that yet, and as a former message board host I've seen more than a few Internet trolls who do exactly what you've been doing. Some call it mockery, others call it annoying, I call it poking at others with a sharp stick just to get a reaction. It wasn't worthwhile then and it isn't worthwhile now -- and virtually every one of those trolls told me what you have now said when confrionted with being banned from the boards: "I mean everything I say" or "I'm serious about this stuff" or "I was just kidding around!"" A few days later they would be back to the same annoying behavior. So I'll be giving you the benefit of the doubt until your silliness gets repeated. At that point I would argue that you just don't fit in here.

Peace.

And again, from my perspective, it's critical to distinguish between an object (whatever it is) and the process of perception and cognition that brings that object to consciousness. I believe that is the key to the city. Call me crazy but that's ben my experience. Weird raptures are temporary, impermanent objects like all the others we encounter. They can be markers on the map but they're not worth dwelling on.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/2/08 11:09 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: AlanChapman

'Thanks Florian. The encouragement is helpful. I was about ready to drop this whole site before you responded.'

Oh come now - no need to spit your dummy out. We're all adults here after all.

'I really need to refresh myself on Buddhist language to communicate with these people better.'

I'm not quite sure why you've not responded to any of my questions - they all seem quite reasonable to me - but I ask that you at least take one piece of advice on board if you are serious about this enlightenment lark. Read Daniel's Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha. It's free from his site, and it will give a good grounding in the basics of Buddhism, a heads up on the lingo floating around this site and the its contributors general attitude to enlightenment.

We're all really quite nice you know.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/3/08 5:42 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

Hi Allen,
Sorry I somehow missed this message. Thanks for pointing it out. I was raised christian, and practiced that till I was 18. Then I abandoned Christianity for the pursuit of physics. i denied the existence of all things not in the objective world. I studied physics for 8 years. For years of undergraduate and four years of graduate work.

At the end of the first 4 years of physics, I took a Buddhist philosophy class taught by a Tebitian practitioner. I became intersted and attended meditation practice off and on at Shambala centers.

During this time, I also studied zen koans off and on. My primary neurosis is that I think too much. So Koans redirect this energy towards contemplation. I also read several books by Tebetian people like Pema Chordron and Chögyam Trungpa. I never really took to Shamabla though.

Then I met Reggie Ray, and I was instantly drawn to him. He is a former Shambala teacher who left to start his own branch of Chögyam Trungpa's lineage. I went on a 1 month retreat last winter with him. He focuses on tantric body meditation techniques. This website is the first experience I've had with Theravada.

You see here is the fundamental schism between us: As part our path, we take a vow to never attain enlightenment until all beings in the universe have attained enlightenment. We vow to do this, not only our this lifetime but in every future lifetime, for all of eternity. We vow to be Bodhisattvas, gate keepers of enlightenment helping all other beings move forward while we stay behind. So do you understand why I chuckle slightly every time people talk about stages of enlightenment and how close they are, or when the already attained it? It is very difficult for me to talk about my spiritual practice as a series of results. But I'll give it a shot.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/3/08 6:36 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi MagicianOfChange,

Physics - me too, though I do IT for a living now.

Hey, if I can participate in woo-woo-sounding talk about "energies" (my spiritual vocabulary pet peeve #1) without freaking out, I think there is a good chance of you not losing it with our discussing attainments and goals here. ;)

Alan's reading recommendation is very good advice. Much of this thread will start making sense to you.

Regarding Theravada: actually, I think most people here are *not* orthodox Theravadins. But most are familiar with some Theravada jargon.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/3/08 7:20 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi MOC,

I don't there is a schism here at all. Rather, you are misunderstanding the bodhisattva vow and misunderstanding the fact that all spiritual teachers know how to assess people's practice and their progress. How else could teachers like Reggie decide to break with another lineage, to declare themselves as teachers, or to make assessments as to the progress of other people's practice. To think that he isn't, or doesn't, is to badly misunderstand him, and pretty much every other real teacher out there. Read some of Reggie's books and you will see them litered with various developmental models. The whole 3-yana system is a developmental model, as is the the bhumi system (which describes different levels of bodhisattvas), and the 5-path model is probably the best of them all at describing the process toward enlightenment.

In short, to suggest that people that take the Bodhisattva vow aren't getting enlightened is complete hogwash. There may in fact be a difference in how they approach the discussion of enlightenment, but that doesn't mean they aren't getting enlightened, in the same exact way that those who do choose to discuss it are. Everything else is baseless Buddhist dogma, will not support actually awakening, and is exactly what this community is here to counter-act. Take it or leave it, I think giving it a shot will probably help much less than it will hurt.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/3/08 7:38 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Bodhisattvas DO NOT vow to never attain awakening. Instead, they vow to awaken as soon as possible, in order to be able to help others. Unless you've done it yourself, how do you imagine helping others? What bodhisattvas DO give up is leaving samsara, i.e. entering nirvana. They make this vow BEFORE awakening, so that AFTER awakening they may realize the unity and identity of samsara and nirvana, so called co-emergence. So, basically, the reason for your chuckling is a misunderstanding, not your fault entirely, since you could have easily picked it up in some Western Buddhist circles.

The vow of bodhicitta, usual for Tibetan schools, consists of aspiration to develop wisdom and compassion, so that one may be of maximum assistance to everyone else. Here's a set of four and five vows, as practiced daily in Japanese schools, to the same effect:

Four great vows
Sentient beings without number we vow to awaken.
Vexations without number we vow to eradicate.
Limitless methods of Dharma we vow to master.
The supreme awakening we vow to achieve.

Five great vows
Living beings are innumerable, I vow to awaken them all.
Merit and knowledge are endless, I vow to accumulate them all.
Teachings of Dharma are endless, I vow to master them all.
Buddhas are innumerable, I vow to serve them all.
Awakening is unsurpassed, I vow to attain it.
(May and others in Dharmadhatu be equally benefited.)

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/3/08 1:11 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

Hum, perhaps your right. Having studied the wikipedia page on "bumis" I think I may have inadvertently stumbled into The Sixth Bhumi, the Manifest.

"All notions of "I" and "other" are transcended, along with conceptions of "existence" and "nonexistence." These sixth-level bodhisattvas abide in contemplation of suchness, with minds that are undisturbed by false ideas."

If you notice my profile in the superpower section, "Acknowledgment of the non-dual nature between yourself and others in everyday life can have surprising and unsuspecting consequences. Sometimes I find myself navigating a gateway between worlds, like a spiritual butler. Its kind of strange, fun, and scary. "

These levels of atainment come and go though. When other people see me as separate from them, their awareness or ignorance influence the space, making me feel separate from them. I guess thats pretty good. I should make myself a Bhumi medal or something. ;)

But seriously, to make any real judgment I would have to talk with someone else who knows more. I or anybody else can proclaim themselves to be Jesus Christ, or whoever. Someone more wise then me should probably make the call on these names. But thats good news, maybe I'll become a professional guru sooner then I thought. ;)

And monkeymind, I also found a physics phd "hard to cultivate" ;) I dropped out and got a masters. Now I do tela-comuting web development periodically.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/3/08 2:14 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi MOC,

Given that you aren't taking seriously the very real value that is offered in this community, where there are several people who in this very thread have pointed out where you probably are (and it ain't enlightenment pal) and resources to direct you in the right direction--so that you could in fact come to an abiding, and deep realization of the fundamental nature of things--I would suggest not participating in this community.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/3/08 10:55 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: AlanChapman

Hello Lee,

‘Having studied the wikipedia page on "bumis" I think I may have inadvertently stumbled into The Sixth Bhumi, the Manifest.’

These levels of atainment come and go though. When other people see me as separate from them, their awareness or ignorance influence the space, making me feel separate from them. I guess thats pretty good. I should make myself a Bhumi medal or something. ;)’

I think you’re making a step in the right direction, but I would go to a better source than Wikipedia for your models and their understanding.

Try Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram. It’s free from here:

www.interactivebuddha.com

For instance, you say your attainment comes and goes. This is not true for the Bhumis, but it is true of what the Theravada people call the Arising and Passing Event. Details of this can be found in Dan’s book.

‘But seriously, to make any real judgment I would have to talk with someone else who knows more.’

Read the book, understand the model (in my experience it’s a really good one) and I’m confident someone as intelligent as you will be able to judge where they are at.

Go on – you’ll love it!

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/4/08 5:39 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

Alen,
I picked up Core Teachings and I've started reading it. It is a good text. I think I understand the Arising and Passing Event. This is not quite the same. The experiences of transcendent non-duality occur more or less all the time. Sometimes this leads to sharp transcendence, which manifest as strange and mystical, but most of the time its just its in the periphery. However, I've noticed there are some exceptions. I haven't managed to fully trancenend duality/non-duality in lower shakara activities, most notably sex. Although I did just meet a lovely lady, and I've broken some barriers in that area, so I am a bit preoccupied.

I notice my space shift from infant, to child, to adult to crone sometimes. People notice it also. Other times my space becomes defuse, as if the world around this body and the people in it are a part of me. In more mystical moments, I can introduce various buddhas into public gatherings.

For example, I was at drum circle and I called Kurukulla and she manifested in my friends space while she was belly dancing. To which people called her a witch and men began to get aggressive. To counter this, I manifested Ritro Gumpo, who appeared as a swift penetrating breeze into the circle. People cried with delight.

But I do not fully manifest the animal within. I am also sometimes terrified of my non-existence. It keeps me up at night sometimes. So perhaps I have a ways to go in that area, but enlightenment is coming like a great transcendent wave. I am riding it like a surfer. I do not struggle and push anymore, the way opens naturally for me. Everyone feels it, not just me. They just don't see it for what it is. Now my attainment is tied to other peoples karma, so I roam around and do magic with them, I let go of my baggage and heal them at the same time. It is the life I've always wanted.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/4/08 5:58 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: MagicianOfChange

Vjhorn,
I'm sorry that my jest bothers you. But is important that I not take it seriously. I take my non-seriousness very seriously. Seriously. These titles, bhumis, attainments, all of this I find terrifyingly serious. If I take myself seriously things would not go well. In this case seriousness leads to ego. Seriousness is a dangerous path for me. I've went down it, and it almost killed me. No joke.

Namely I came to a state where I felt the entire world rested on my thoughts, and actions. I interpreted articles in the news as my doing. That my thoughts caused those events. I was overcome by paralyzing terror. I could not move, get out of bed, do anything for fear of causing a catastrophe. The thing is, I am still quite convinced that my karma was connected to these things, but enforcing causality of my action leading to theirs is as sane as thinking that they caused my action. Nevertheless, I am terrified of seriousness. It is potentially very harmful for me.

I do greatly appreciate everyone's comments, I have gained a much wider perspective then my narrow readings had me to believe. I also appreacate MokeyMind's prodding about planing an approach. It is has made me think about my practice in a different way.

I have much research to do before I can speak in an educated way, with these big words. I mean no disrespect, but I will stop posting hence forth. I am who I am. If I am not welcome, then I will go elsewhere.

Peace,
Lee

PS. I'm also more interested in getting layed right now then talking to you guys or reading some stupid books. Who knew sex could be so good? I am starting to feel and see the pleasure of my partner when I hold her as she rubs her clit! Sexual non-duality is by far the best aspect of whatever strangeness I've stumbled into. Soon I will be the ultimate lover! Fear my sex power!

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/5/08 12:42 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
MOC,

Please be careful. Although you are more enlightened now, there is still a long way to go. Don't trash your recent gains by over-extending that the knowledge and sensitivity you have gained.

If you look at your posts, you can see that you are defining yourself over and over again. "I am interested", "I have gained", "I am convinced", "I take seriouseness"... I know from personal experience that this happens as a counter point when facing the other truth we all have to deal with ("I am also sometimes terrified of my non-existence.")

It's classic Dark Night territory, and in worst case scenarios it's characterized by a manic enjoyment of life, followed by utter exhaustion and meaninglessness. There are lots of psychic intuitions and closeness, but yet there is a huge blindness to a lot of egotistical faults. The enjoyment of successes gets cranked up, but so do the consequences of mistakes and failings. Enjoy, experience, etc. is fine. Don't indulge.

The consequences of your actions during this part of your life and progress are absolutely real.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/5/08 3:42 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Sorry to disappoint anyone who had a good time with this thread, but the guy who called himself "MagicianOfChange" was banned after being warned to stop ridiculing others and using this website for unconcerned self-indulgence. Let's move on.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
9/5/08 9:54 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Thanks for letting us know, Hokai. It's clear that he was pretty much just mocking the rest of us from his more enlightened state of being ;-)

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
11/13/08 12:31 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: khemadipa

I don't have a specific opinion on whether MOC should have been kicked off. However, I know him personally - we sat a Dathun with Reggie Ray together and have been in contact since - and in his character defence I just want to say that he was not intentionally mocking anybody. He is a very good person, and his being challenged to not be so fascinated by his psychic/psychotic visions, experiences, and 'energies' put them into a more expedient perspective. He is a very intelligent, compassionate, softhearted individual who experiences highly unusual phenomena. Please do not take his apparent lack of focus and communicative precision as an expression of condescension or derision.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
11/14/08 1:23 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
I don't know either, but sometimes getting kicked off is a way of learning actions have consequences. It had to have been a hard call for the moderators to make. Thanks for the update, I was curious what had happened to MOC. Sounds like he's in good hands.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
11/14/08 8:47 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
I think it was very clear that while posting he was being disrespectful to folks on this board. Read his last post for some evidence. So I wonder -- why was his behavior here so different from the behavior you experienced face to face? (That's purely a rhetorical question. No answer necessary.)

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
11/14/08 11:17 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
We are communicating in plain text, which is low-context. And on the internet, which is alienating. And likewise, via slow back-and-forth paragraphs, which tend towards argumentation, rather than agreement or exploration. It's almost impossible to determine something like tone, especially if it's subtle. I often can't tell from things I have written the next day. Just something to keep in mind.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
11/15/08 2:08 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Certainly true. And then again sometimes even plain text is as clear as a bell.

RE: anyone else dealing with what appear to be squids, or spirits?
Answer
11/15/08 5:19 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Yeah.

Hard to know how to help a guy like that -- and I speak from past experience having been a guy like that! emoticon