"Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness"

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Florian, modified 15 Years ago at 8/6/08 8:27 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/6/08 8:27 AM

"Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness"

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Forum: Practical Dharma

There's a lot of concern among hard-core insight practitioners about "getting stuck in Samatha Jhana", and I can certainly understand the reasoning, and know some of the horror stories of people mistaking the formless realms for enlightenment.

On the other hand, there is a fair share of "Kundalini Sickness" stories out there about people overdoing the insight practice (or something related) at the expense of, variously, their health, sanity, etc. Even Nathan here at DhO has darkly hinted at personal experiences with some of the more unpleasant effects of the lower vipassana Jhanas.

Not being advanced enough in my practice to have personally encountered either extreme, I'm very curious about your opinions or experiences on how (if at all) more samatha practice might attenuate some of the kundalini-like effects of vipassana.

Cheers,
Florian
Nathan I S, modified 15 Years ago at 8/6/08 9:43 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/6/08 9:43 AM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

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I didn't mean to come off as "dark," just frustrated. But then again I read stories over at Kundalini Survival and Support and feel like I'm getting off easy. I did agitate an old back injury, and it wasn't one of those "healing crisis"/"energy release" things, it was that my back twisted too much while I was sitting and shaking and then my facet-joints in my spine got mad, consigning me to a chair with a back for the next four days.

From advice I've received, concentration actually intensifies kriya and kundalini effects, and lop-sided concentration--e.g., lots of one-pointedness and inadequate tranquility--can also intensify things. But that said, I sometimes suspect that those are independent of an insight stage, and are grosser or subtler manifestations of old stuff, karma, coming up, because I can just sit with the intention to "just let things happen" and even with that fairly dull concentration, and such gentle mindfulness that it feels too soft to really count as meditating, all the kriya crap comes up.

On the "stuck in shamatha" side, i've run into deep states--without particularly seeking them, e.g., doing dry insight with noting or bare attention--that have overwhelmed my mindfulness, but these are fairly short-lived; they're like bubbles or waves.
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Florian, modified 15 Years ago at 8/6/08 5:58 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/6/08 5:58 PM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

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Thanks, Nathan, "lop-sided concentration" - that's an angle I never considered.

I've run into what felt like short concentration "bubbles" (wonderful description) in my insight practice as well - they are actually quite interesting to disassemble with noting.

What I meant by "stuck in samatha" was the stories of people cultivating and solidifying samatha states over years and years (quite an achievement, I think), mistaking them for insight.

Cheers,
Florian
Frater Geur, modified 15 Years ago at 8/6/08 8:59 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/6/08 8:59 PM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

Posts: 24 Join Date: 9/9/09 Recent Posts
I'm puzzled. (I generally am.) How do you distinguish these kinds of unsettling experiences from general Dark Night stuff? If they occurred during Equanimity surely they wouldn't be so conspicuous, which leads me to wonder if maybe they are part of the Dark Night phase of the cycle, otherwise they wouldn't solidify as 'crap' or 'stuff' in the way that they do.

I've practiced kundalini yoga for a few years, alongside vipassana / samatha, and I like the way it gives me insight into the more 'etheric', 'psychic' aspects of experience. Some of the results have indeed been unsettling, but I've never felt they were messing up the usual progress of the stages of insight... It all gets resolved in the end... Interesting... If these types of experiences can be said to 'mess you up' in some way, how is it that they can have this effect and override the insight cycle?

Duncan.
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Vincent Horn, modified 15 Years ago at 8/7/08 1:29 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/7/08 1:29 AM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

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Hi Duncan,

To try and answer your question, most Kundalini stuff (esp. the kind of things that are being described above) tend to manifest more during the 3 characteristics phase of the cycle (and to some degree in the A&P), not so much the Dark Night. Though the two (3 characteristics and Dark Night) look quite similar the three characteristics tends to be marked by physical discomfort and kundalini phenomena, whereas there is rarely any kundalini associated with the dark night (though there are plenty of raptures).

Best,

-Vince
Frater Geur, modified 15 Years ago at 8/7/08 2:12 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/7/08 2:12 AM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

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Thanks, Vince! (I need to develop a more granular awareness of the vipassana stages. I'd often noticed a 'mini Dark Night' before the Dark Night proper kicked in - now I know where to look...) It still seems to me, however, that the insight cycle cleans up all the crap as it spins on its course. On the basis of my own experience, I can't buy this idea that 'too much samatha' or 'too much vipassana' can screw you up. Unless you give up meditating and the cycle grinds down to a snail's pace. Are the horror stories coming from people who have stopped practising?
Nathan I S, modified 15 Years ago at 8/7/08 3:19 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/7/08 3:19 AM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

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Vince, over at this page: http://www.vipassanadhura.com/sixteen.htm

they describe plenty of energy releases that seem to be kundalini-like occurring at later stages, including postural movements, e.g., at the 10th nana, "The body may become stiff... There may be a feeling of heat" (it also mentions that the corruptions of insight can include diarrhea ); that said, it's not clear from that map whether they mean just sensations, or actual physical phenomena, like the skin getting hot.

that, and from what I can gather other traditions make a study of the kundalini apart from a progressive path of insight--e.g., inner fire, chi kung.

Save to say that I think this may be a multi-faceted phenomenon, I'm not sure what I'm getting at though, as I'm more than willing to admit that I am just reviewing the same low-level crap over and over.
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Vincent Horn, modified 15 Years ago at 8/7/08 8:13 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/7/08 8:13 AM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

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Hi Nathan,

Yeah, again these two phases are very similar and I'm not saying that there are strange physical discomforts that happen during the dark night, but that kundalini-related stuff in particular does tend to be more predominate during the three characteristics and A&P. That is one of the main ways that they are distinguished. So again, I'm not saying that there isn't some physical manifestations in the dark night that are similar to the three characteristics and it's useful to tease these apart as best as possible so that one doesn't fool oneself into thinking they are in the dark night when they aren't or to know that they are in the dark night. Of course, it takes many times through these cycles to tease them apart well, and that will still be limited to your own experience of the cycles, as each person tends to go through these things slightly differently. So I guess in the end the practice really reveals all...
Nathan I S, modified 15 Years ago at 8/7/08 11:41 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/7/08 11:41 AM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

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i don't necessarily think i have enough experience to comment on the effects of each stage--i'm not sure there is necessarily much practical outcome to it, it is just something i am curious about. E.g., why do some vipassana effects persist and other do not? aren't certain concentration side-effects very much like vipassana side-effects? it simply feels to me like there is "something" behind this that might have a practical impact (e.g., energetic yoga?) but I just don't know.
Nathan I S, modified 15 Years ago at 8/14/08 5:23 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/14/08 5:23 AM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

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After a little futher thought, and being more mindful of this process while sitting, i've got a little more to add. Generally, i'm not doing noting. I am using anapanasati. I haven't looked into energetic yoga as I gave blood a few days ago and don't really want to tool with my blood pressure for another week or two.

First, to some extent "kundalini"-like energy (not the factor of faculty of awakening) exists independently of the insight cycle, much like your organs do. The liver doesn't stop functioning during the dukka nanas unless you hang yourself in the shower. Now, it's very clear that the knowledge of the 3 chracteristics and A&P can intensify this energy and drive it on its own, and sometimes, "kundalini" will kick in on its own though this is for me very rare. At the same time, however, at least in my case i can tune into this energy and raise it in a general way and will get some of those effects--the automatic movements or kriya relate closely and seem to follow or precede it, but rarely outside the context of insight or concentration. I have a lot of aversion to raising energy in the willed matter because it feels potentially dangerous healthwise.

That said, I find that tuning into the background and attempting to investigate that or the observer, or just broadening the attention, will usually prevent this from happening and bring up mind-states more than gross physcial stuff like kriya, but subtle physical stuff might still persist--if I make that an object, however, it tends to feed back into the physical stuff, and likewise, if I allow tranquility to slacken, my ability to investigate mind-states like sadness etc. is reduced, and this seems to result in the physical stuff returning.
Martin Mai, modified 15 Years ago at 8/17/08 10:14 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/17/08 10:14 AM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

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Hi everybody,
for me the kundalini-phenomena arise exclusively during vipassana, not samatha. I found that they usually show up when shifts in the perception of vibration take place. Especially shifts from only percieving objects to percieving interferences between several objects and the background are prone to be accompanied by kundalini stuff. So personally I only encounter these during the actual shifts and not during more stable vibrational phases.
This reminds me of Daniel´s description of entering jhanas which, according to him, can be accompanied by the eyes flickering.
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Florian, modified 15 Years ago at 8/17/08 6:09 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/17/08 6:09 PM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Hi Martin,
Interesting observation. Do you simply note the effects? I imagine they are heavy attention-seekers.

Cheers,
Florian
Martin Mai, modified 15 Years ago at 8/17/08 8:51 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 8/17/08 8:51 PM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

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Hi Florian,
they are indeed. Another aspect of this is that the shifts become more obvious. Of course I try to note them but at this point noting is usually too slow. I figured that maybe it´s the concentration being too week so I switched to anapanasati just yesterday which is what I alway do when noting is too slow or concentration too weak.
Back to the kundalini stuff: Usually I can feel them building up before they are released. This is like when I really speed up the noting it feels like bodily pressure that increases until I get used to the speed. This happens in just an instant, accompanied by the physical relief from the pressure and trembling.
Maybe this isn´t even kundalini-phenomena so please correct me if you can.
Best wishes,
Martin
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 12/2/08 12:39 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 12/2/08 12:39 PM

RE: "Getting stuck in Samatha Jhana" vs "Kundalini Sickness&

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Ant_808

Hi Martin,
I have had pretty much the same kind of thing happening to me whenever i practised Vipassna. A build up of energy followed by shaking and an upward movement of energy from the lower part of the abdomin or spine. Like you it would always happen during a shift in perception.. e.g. starting to investigate nama rupa after looking at rising falling. This was occuring around 2-3 months ago since then i have just been practising annapanna sati.

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