MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

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Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 3/26/08 6:01 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/26/08 6:01 AM

MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Yverc
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

Most religious buddhists and people involved in spirituality within the context of organised religion seems to be against using drugs in combination with meditation or using it as a spiritual tool.

I read a very interesting article about monks using MDMA and describing how it effected their practise: http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v06n1/06133spi.html

Using drugs as a part of a spiritual path is a taboo in most religions, including buddhism. My guess is that most meditation teachers advice against using empathy enhancing drugs such as MDMA in order to get accepted by mainstream society and practioners.

Personally i have only used it once in my life. My empathy/compassion skyrocketed and afterwards i was permantly more open as a person. It was a deeply spiritual and healing experience.

Those people interviewed in the article seems to consider MDMA something of a wonder drug when it comes to using it as a mediation aid or to use it at raves.

A zen monk and abbot of a monastery describes the following (from the article): 'His first reaction, after the MDMA began to take effect, was sadness in his position as part of the establishment of a restrictive religion, and a realisation that the Zen training was not suitable for Westerners in its present form. Later, he got into the dancing. As his face changed from severe to happy he exclaimed: "This is meditation - to be truly in the moment and not in your head." The next day, he said that he felt the experience had made an impression on his life, and he was not sure where it would take him. It had emphasised what he already knew: that his students were too contracted, and that the expansive experience of the rave was what they needed, and it was a pity that he could not advocate it in his position.'

Do you agree with the article that is very unfortunate that MDMA use is such a taboo within organised religion?
Nathan I S, modified 16 Years ago at 3/26/08 6:17 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/26/08 6:17 AM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

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I have a friend who tells me the reason to avoid drugs and meditation, or at least to avoid psychedelics, is because it is very much like jumping out of a helicopter into the ocean. How deep is it? Are there sharks? Is there an undercurrent? Are you strong enough to swim? My friend tells me the answer to these questions is that you just don't know. It's very very easy to hurt yourself and not even know you've done so.

Worse, using the drugs to catalyze insight is one of the dumbest things imaginable. Drugs, technically speaking, enhance concentration and energy to a fantastic level. But it is always short-term. God help you if you cross into the dukka nanas with the help of drugs, because you probably won't ever realize as much, nor know how to deal with it.

Now, I understand that MDMA has some potent psychiatric possibilities and it's unfortunate that at least here in the States we have practically been wasting so much tax money and human potential with imprisonment to institute a new Inquisition.

This is a case where you want to take the stairs, not the rocket ship. Because it might explode on you.
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Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 3/26/08 11:49 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/26/08 11:49 AM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

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Author: sonamdolma

I'd like to add a comment but it makes me paranoid that you - Yverc - haven't given us any information about yourself. Ann
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Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 3/26/08 7:23 PM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/26/08 7:23 PM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Yverc

sonamdolma: Actually this entire forum is overground, so any answer you give can be read by anyone in the world with an internet connection. Only write stuff you feel comfortable with being public on the internet. It is from what i can see, impossible to delete or edit posts, so anything you write will stay here forever.

nathan28: MDMA is not a psychedelic (even if there could be some mild visual distortions). It is more about enhancing your empathy levels. Your brain gets flooded by serotonin which greatly reduce fear, anixiety etc etc which dramatically increase compassion, empathy, trust, positivity , openess. It is possible to get bad trips on MDMA though if you are not ready for the openness it causes.

I noticed it also it increase chi flow A LOT. When you are happy your chi flow increase. On MDMA you get too happy which drains your energy as it flows too fast. The possibilities for a bad trip and that it is not very healthy are the only downsides i can think of.
Hokai Sobol, modified 16 Years ago at 3/27/08 3:17 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/27/08 3:17 AM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

Posts: 4 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Yverc: "It is from what i can see, impossible to delete or edit posts, so anything you write will stay here forever."

Actually, it's enough to contact any moderator, and ask them to delete anything of your own writing you wish deleted.
Nathan I S, modified 16 Years ago at 3/27/08 4:08 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/27/08 4:08 AM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

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I shot from the hip on this one and just read the article. I am not impressed with the practitioners surveyed for that piece, who seem to have a fascination with content. Save for Brother Steindl-Rast, who, while having made use of and while recognizing the utility of MDMA for, e.g., the terminally ill and under a medical relationship, doesn't believe the substance valuable enough even to use as a supplement or adjunct to his practice.

The question would be, if MDMA can bring rise to such empathy, why not do so on our own power, via something like Tonglen or Metta or even old-fashioned ethics? As many have pointed out, just staring at the wall can give rise to all sorts of things, be they extreme physical sensations, dark feelings, sheer hatred, unconstrained lust or mind-blowing visions, that are at the far limit of our ability to handle. Oftentimes drug advocates simply seem to lack a basic awareness of the practical techniques and potent effects of spiritual practice.

The only argument--and this is the only one--I can see in favor of drug use for spiritual purposes (if you are after "an eighteen-hour holiday", or like Francis Crick are using low-doses of LSD to help stay awake and problem-solve to discover DNA, that's different) is that, as some who have used them have claimed, it can open up our minds to the possibilities available to us all the time, and thereby bring about the factor of faith. Even then, it can go horribly wrong and for many reasons--just spend some time on some "New Edge" internet sites for ample examples.

Anyway, it's a big universe and I could be wrong. Maybe there are people who get stream-entry on ecstasy. But like I said, I'll take the stairs, thank you very much.
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 16 Years ago at 3/28/08 8:12 PM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/28/08 8:12 PM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
I think that this is an important debate.

I agree with Nathan28: it is possible to get into territory with various substances that one then doesn't have the build in ability to handle well. They can also bypass some of the natural protective circuitry of the mind and cause people to commit acts that later they might regret. Some can have more permanent consequences. As a good friend with a ton of experience with drugs once said, "It is like trying to fix a Swiss watch with a sledge hammer."

I personally know many people who have had both good and bad experiences with substances, so it is not a straightforward issue. I know one guy who was high on LSD, walked in on his tripping girlfriend and his best friend having sex, killed his best friend, and spent 20 years in jail. I know another person who dropped 4 hits of LSD, asked to see God, and crossed the Arising and Passing Away for the first time. I know someone who, on having done their first hit of LSD, became psychotic for 3 months: clearly not a common reaction, but possible. I know someone who crossed the Arising and Passing Away on their first time doing mescaline. I have taken care of people in their 20's and 30's in the ED who have had myocardial infarctions (heart attacks, for those of you non-medical types) on speed and also on cocaine, and MDMA (ecstasy) is a methamphetamine (speed) derivative with many speed-like properties. While many people can get a taste of something beyond their ordinary experience on various substances, few who continue going back to them for wisdom get it except when catastrophe strikes, such as ending up in jail or addicted or beaten up or worse and acquiring the wisdom to try something else.

Thus, I would advise great caution and restraint on the substance front for a whole host of pragmatic reasons, as mentioned above. I agree that there is nothing like getting into territory on one's own power and ability, as then it is yours.
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Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 3/28/08 11:22 PM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/28/08 11:22 PM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Yverc

I think the debate becomes too broad if we expand it to include all substances. MDMA and LSD have very different effects. MDMA dramatically increase love/empathy/compassion which among many things leads to neurotically based fear dissolution. We also need to remember that a large number of people get into meditation because of substance induced experiences.

The risk of death on Ecstasy is very low as described in the documentary "Ecstasy Rising":
'James Gill, a forensic scientist from New York City who had looked at coroner's office data for New York. Gill describes a period during which there were 19,000 deaths where only 22 of the deceased were found to have ecstasy in their system and only "two of those died from ecstasy and ecstasy only". Jennings reiterates the point: "Two deaths, during a period according to the DEA, that New Yorkers used about 110 million doses of ecstasy." '
The documentary can be seen at: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1564288654365150131&q=ecstasy+rising&total=44&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
So the death risk when taking MDMA is about 1 in 55 million.

I do not see how fear dissolution, openess, increased ability forgive and to integrate previous traumatic life experiences, can be seen as "like trying to fix a Swiss watch with a sledge hammer". There are of course some risks when taking it. All the potential negative effects listed on Erowid.
Nathan I S, modified 16 Years ago at 3/29/08 9:55 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/29/08 9:55 AM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

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"I do not see how fear dissolution, openess, increased ability forgive and to integrate previous traumatic life experiences, can be seen as 'like trying to fix a Swiss watch with a sledge hammer'."

I do not disagree--as I mentioned, I believe that, regardless of the recreational question, psychotropic substances can have legitimate uses. MDMA seems to have promise in the treatment of PTSD; LSD was seen as a panacea (and who knows, it may be one) for nearly 20 years; even something as plebian as dexedrine is heavy used by students as "smart drugs". I don't necessarily believe it that necessary to draw a distinction between ecstacy and acid, as the two both manipulate tryptamine levels, but I will acknowledge that danger does lie in overgeneralization.

Generally, MDMA in and of itself appears to be not all that damaging if used with due caution. Of course, I have known people who have not exercised caution, as besides the fascination with glowsticks and electronic music, they also became classic emotional burnouts. I have to wonder whether one acquiantance of mine wasn't self-medicating when she should have been seeing a psychiatrist for some pretty heavy stuff.
Nathan I S, modified 16 Years ago at 3/29/08 10:03 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/29/08 10:03 AM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

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Continuing, I also have no doubt that drug use leads people to formal meditative practice. I would offer, however, that oftentimes it is "spontaneous" insight during childhood that does the same. I can recall numerous experiences of jhana and the psychic powers that took place when I was far too young to know anything about at the time. The danger with drug use is similar in that regard--you may chance into insight territory without realizing it, and not have access to the knowledge or structures you would need to support yourself. In other words, Welcome to Club Permanent Dark Night.

None the less, profound "empathy/love/compassion" and "neurotically based fear dissolution" remain forms of content. If an individual, assuming full responsibility, legal and otherwise, for herself, wants to take up MDMA or other drugs intentionally to tackle that content, that is her prerogative, and far be it from my place to say otherwise. But she must realize that she may be chancing into insight. And she must realize that profound experiences, and emotional stability gained via drugs or whatever, have very little to do with prajna. Confusing those two, emotional/ethical stability and wisdom, does tremendous disservice to people seeking practical ways to navigate through--or even so much as explain the practice of--wisdom.
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Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 3/29/08 12:18 PM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/29/08 12:18 PM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

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Author: Yverc

I am not sure i understand what you mean by "content" and why it is a bad thing. The only thing i can do is to compare the state of a complete dissolution of all neurotically based fears and enlightenment. At enlightenment you are completely unselfcentered/unselfish. You accept yourself, the universe and every momemt exactly as it is. You simply do not fear your own no-fear. The no-fear/non-duality we all have inside of us is the root of our subconsciousness. Most people are not very aware of this quality and mostly experience the surface of their consciousness with it's fears etc etc.

What happens when fear dissolve at personality level is that we see the fear with no-fear and that it has no roots in our subconsciousness (as the root of our subconsciousness is no-fear/non-duality). This means that it is this that happens when we take MDMA. We get get closer to enlightenment. When we permantely no longer fear our no fear, then ALL neurotically based fears in our personality dissolve.

Enlightenment/wisdom and emotional stability becomes one.
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 16 Years ago at 3/30/08 9:02 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/30/08 9:02 AM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
I disagree strongly with your models of enlightenment. They are idealistic and do not stand reality testing. Fear and neurosis are par for the course due to being mammals and are as empty as anything else. Thus, the notion that taking a drug that temporarily eliminates fear makes one closer to enlightenment is simply wrong. Fear arises from its own biology and causes, and the notion that simply seeing the true nature of phenomena will eliminate it is the confused dream of a spiritual kindergardener.

Nathan28's critique revolving around "content" is an important point: most spirituality is obsessed with the particulars of what happens, which clear are important, except when training to see all things as they are and their True Nature (as possibly expressed by such concepts as The Three Characteristics, emptiness, no-self, true self, shunyata, luminosity, etc.). The endless obsession with models of reality that presuppose it to be certain ways, of enlightenment to have specific emotional or psychological characteristics, for people to behave in particular, essentially arbitrary ways, are all ideals that can prevent people from gaining real, fundamental insights that are beyond these naive and religious notions, not that there isn't something to be said for the beauty of many of those ideals from a relative point of view.

Thus, you are attempting to rationalize drug taking in the most lofty of spiritual terms, terms that are currently beyond your depth. Stick to what you know for certain, as your speculation at the highest levels falls widely off the mark. Consider checking out Jack Kornfield's book After the Ecstasy, The Laundry, which, while having a title that just happens to fit with this debate, is relevant and sane reading, as well as possibly reading my book: http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/18C2EF5A-FE35-4754-B42F-B9156CCD7068.html
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Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 3/31/08 9:47 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/31/08 9:47 AM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Yverc

It permanently eliminates much fear, which is why it is valueable in my opinion. I have done reality testing on this model of enligtenment. What i have done is to experiece no-fear/trust/completeness (a state that nothing can be taken away from or added to) and fear at the same time.

From this i've had two different results:
1) Seing the fear as distrust in the no-fear which dissolve it.
2) The fear still being there but percieved in a different light. I've then experienced that is allowed to be there. The "completeness/no-fear" has no desire to get rid of it but accepts it totally as it is. One can say that it totally let it be. Then i've felt the fear to be beautiful/holy/sacred. An experiece difficult to describe!

I think that in the first example the fear had played out its function for me spiritually growing. In the second example i think it had not played out its function which what i felt. Even felt a deep intuition about the fear being something "good" for me, because i evolve from it. This an experience from heart chakra. Impossible to understand/relate to unless you've experienced the same. Sometimes when i've experieced bliss states i've even from heart chakra wanted the bliss to end because i feel strongly that i evolve through experiencing "negative" emotions. A kind of non-duality between my neurotic baseline consciousness and my true self. The bliss was there for me to experience from empathy that endless bliss is not what i want from comapassion/empahy.
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Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 3/31/08 9:49 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/31/08 9:49 AM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Yverc

My deep intution is that my fears/neurosis will be there as long they've got a function. After that they will dissolve and only the no-fear will be left. I also felt that this a fully automatic process and i am not in control of it. Me doing meditation and my personality acting out itself happens at a surface level of consciousness. It is the depth beneath it that i've only seen a glimpse of that is totally in control. I would not say that i am on a kindergarden level. Embryo level would be more accurate!

I do not however belive that i at enlightenment will go around and "percieve" the true self/no-fear all the time. If i have perfect trust/no-fear then it doesn't need to "reassure" me that it is there by having me percieve constantly percieve it.

You are entirely correct that all of this is currently beyond my depth. Right now i sit here and have worries and fears about a bunch of things: the future, myself, resistance towards my current life experiences. Recently i even get easily annoyed by small things. So who i am to sit here and talk about enlightenment? Well, i do not talk from my own depth (that is very shallow). I talk from the depth that is totally beyond me who now and then let me glimpse part of it and makes me more and more aware of itself.

For me it seems logic that you at enlightement have no fear at personality level. As fear at personality level would mean that you distrust/fear that there is nothing to fear. To just see fear as empty and still having it there does not mean you are enlightened (because then it still has a function). You are enlightened when it permanently dissolves when seen from emptiness. This is my view.
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Wet Paint, modified 16 Years ago at 3/31/08 9:57 AM
Created 16 Years ago at 3/31/08 9:57 AM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Yverc

I know your view is different. I've read that chapter (and many other chapters) in your book and like it. However i disagree with your view of enlightenment. If you want convince me that i am wrong you need to show me that my logic here is flawed. It is all direct experiences that i describe through language.

When you take Ecstasy you artifically create a strong trust/no-fear that does not come from yourself. This is somewhat similiar (but still very different) from having God experiences. An incredible, overwhelming experience of love that you experience as "outside" of yourself in some sense. You can on Ecstasy/MDMA become afraid of this love and get a bad trip! Your sense of security in yourself is then linked to your baseline consciousness with its fears and worries. I strongly belive that you from yourself need to recognise this no-fear. It cannot be artifically done (drugs such as MDMA can only help as a pointer along the way) but has to happen through life experiences. You need to experience it from your own wisdom. Here meditation can be of great value as a tool.
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tarin greco, modified 15 Years ago at 12/13/08 10:39 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 12/13/08 10:39 AM

RE: MDMA (ecstasy) and meditation

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
nathan,

without getting into yverc's arguments (i understand it, agree with some, disagree with some, and see why there's gaps of communication - he's talking about something different from but related to non-dualistic enlightenment and which would obviously from that perspective be considered content), i want to reply on your statements, quoted above.

while emotional stability may have very little to do with prajna (insight) itself i think it's got very much to do with the ability to develop it, and whether someone will develop it or not. despite the protestations of those who take some of their own character traits operating in the background for granted, the ability to sit with things as they are for long enough to perceive them through and through probably rests quite a bit on a kind of stability of attention that is afforded by a sufficient lack of emotional disturbances, or, at least, the *emotional willingness* to suspend those disturbances for as long as is necessary. this is a kind of uncontrived acceptance, or naivete, and can be characterised as a form of emotional stability. i even have evidence to back this up: an extremely content-heavy person i know, who'd spent well over a decade doing emotional work, just got first path. and all she can still talk about is content. a tiny exception to the overarching rule? probably not as much as we'd like to think, having found comfort in a black-and-white distinction between wisdom and content.

since the post was about mdma, i'll add something: i've experienced that naivete a lot on mdma and it's probably made me more that way, overall, in the long run, and has probably helped with dark night stuff tremendously. my opinion: chronic dark night yogis should consider taking mdma (albeit with some understanding of the content/insight difference.. though that part might not able to be instilled.. but that's another topic completely).

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