Am I on the map or off the map?

John White, modified 13 Years ago at 8/21/10 12:03 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/21/10 12:03 PM

Am I on the map or off the map?

Posts: 61 Join Date: 8/16/10 Recent Posts
Hello everyone here at DhO,

Finding this site, reading everyone's posts, has been fantastic. I have been in a long ass dark night well over a year now, though I didn’t even recognize this until a couple days ago. During the darkest parts my feeling was ‘Death, take me if you want, I’m ready…’ But now, reading all these lucid, honest post have been like beams of light that have broken up the darkness – and I am feeling almost as if reborn.

I apologize in advance for this preposterously long post, but I'm just so excited!. I just finished a 20 day Goenka course – it was both the best and the worst, the last one I ever want to do, and yet the beginning of what I really want to do. Though what that is, after getting so much new input from this site, particularly the AF, I’m not sure. And in this uncertainty, which is quite relaxed and spacious, what is glaringly obvious is the everpresent fairy tale quality of reality as mentioned in PCE’s and AF, and the wonderful invitation to simply dwell here, frolic here, in this eternal now. But could it be so easy as this?

Tarin had asked me what my goals are, when I asked his opinion in light of AF – are retreats still useful? Is mind concentration and jhanas still useful? (He said potentially yes.) My goals have never been an easy question for me, but now it seems more clear. Without a doubt I am most drawn to the practice of utter devotion of attentiveness to the present, utter surrender to existence as it is. Since my days at Osho’s ashram (‘93-95), immersed in tantra, dynamic meditation, and very honest relating, when extreme and prolonged states of ecstasy just took over, the practice of surrendering to existence has had the most gravity. Those times of course always led to ever deeper plunges into darkness, into my core stuff. I suppose this is what is called cycling?

I know this vague and rambling – I’m trying to get a sense of where I am, as the maps right now seem convoluted. Perhaps I’ve already attained first path? I do not know. I suppose knowing this could be helpful, or maybe not! Maybe not knowing is better, as I will be totally free to explore as I feel, not be bound by maps and models, free to ‘follow the openings’ as a Feldenkrais elder used to say. I did a 10 day Goenka course with this attitude a couple years ago. I found the scanning and sweeping to be far too laborious so I said screw it, at which point Osho’s words kicked in: ‘do absolutely nothing at all…’ This was beautiful! Just sitting there doing nothing, openings occurred naturally, penetrating insight, equanimity, an abundant dose of radiant bliss– was a fine retreat – which of course led to more dark night, this one explosive in nature.

The period that could possibly have been stream entry started during a different Goenka 10 day, in 2007. The anapana period was particularly strong, and during the 4th day when we are instructed to switch attention from the ‘touch of the breath’ on the upper lip area, to only the sensation of that area, this was a breakthrough. In the effort to distinguish the super subtle vibrations at this finger tip sized area, concentration sharpened so that what before were bodily sensations now I could see as parts of mind. As if looking at a drop of water under a high powered microscope, full of tiny life swimming around. Random and unconnected bits of memory, of past, of unconsciousness just swimming and swirling about. It was quite a wondrous opening, but the penetration of this sharpened mind got very intense, with incinerator like burning. After a particularly stark tea break, a December course, dark early, cold outside, a bleak squirt of lemon juice in hot water, the only relief was to just surrender, let go, and in this there was peace. I awoke about 2 am, meditated a bit, when my mind popped – like vapor condensing into dew, a sudden coalescense – yes a pop, and a bright and effortless, wonderful bliss and clarity. A lovely little satori, and as I lay down and fell asleep again, I was still very conscious, watching dreams form.

Maybe it was the next night that I had one of the strangest but coolest dreams – that my godchild’s daughter (biracial, she now reminds me of Stephany) was so tiny she could stand in the palm of my hand. She was on the ground, and the earth was melting into little rivulets of water, and she was in a state of utter, utter surrender, letting this melting earth pour all over her. She was all muddy and wet and I asked her ‘what will your parents think?’ But she was so surrendered that it mattered not one iota. The liberating feeling in this dream was beautiful. The next night I dreamed of a much bigger river, at the bottom of a large valley, in which a myriad of life forms swam in , including myself, as this was the genesis of all the life on this earth.

That winter I spent in a Bangkok apartment, meditating 6 hours a day or so, for several months. My pesky little habit of an occaisional beer or two dropped away without any effort or thought whatsoever. Much lessened desire for food, especially dinners, just more and more meditation. After a few weeks of samathas, then a period of deep and often painful burning sits, followed by ultra bliss the following mornings, I entered what I guess was first jhana, maybe second? I don’t know, at the time I hadn’t even heard of a jhana, but its quality was extremely lucid.

Goenka’s words were my guide: piercing and penetrating, observing subtler and subtler vibrations. This lead to what felt like a current that flowed through my core. The best way I can describe it is like brilliant liquid light pulsing through me, which seemed to have subtle waves moving through it, reaching peaks of almost unbearable bliss, though bliss doesn’t really capture it. Nor ecstasy. I don’t know – but the state was utterly absorbing and sublime, lasting for as long as I could sit there, and was repeatable during the following month or so. There were several very brief moments in there that startled me, almost scared me, when awareness would start to coalesce, and I sensed that something could really, really open – but I didn’t go for it. Such a wuss. Anyway that time in Bangkok led unexpectedly to a wonderful trip to India with my Thai friend, to the mountain ashram of an 'enlightened' (another topic) Indian guy I had spent lots of time with back in '95. So there was a reprieve, didn't get body slammed right away by another dark night. Apparently it was saving its strength for this past year, which nearly finished me off. Which is why I am so thankful for this excellent creation of DhO...as I now seem to have emerged, smack in the middle of some wide and wondrous path.

If anyone was willing to wade through all that, any thoughts? Possible stream entry?
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 13 Years ago at 8/21/10 11:22 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/21/10 11:22 PM

RE: Am I on the map or off the map?

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Dear John,

Glad you have found this place and are liking it.

Here are my thoughts as I read your post, which was good and not too long as these sorts of things go:

1) It is hard to make a perfect guess about things like which was stream entry, which was the A&P, which was jhana, etc without a lot of contact with someone or really unusually compelling descriptions.

2) The thing where you talk about awareness coalescing and the feeling of something big going to happen: that really makes me think the period of Equanimity just before stream entry.

3) There are all sorts of useful criteria for stream entry as well as information about the maps in MCTB, see the wiki, down near the bottom, go to Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, and then read basically the first few chapters in Part III or just skip to Was that Emptiness? which is the chapter where I give the standard Stream Entry criteria. You will notice they have many aspects: the setup, the event itself (Fruition, through one of the Three Doors), the afterglow, and then the understandings and capabilities, as well as what happens next. All of these should be in place. Further, you should be able to test yourself: read the Progress of Insight chapter, and see if you can sit on a cushion, drop into the A&P, out into Dissolution, through the Dark Night, get to Equanimity, incline to a Fruition, and see if you can get one, then do it again. Not everyone can do this after stream entry with the same degree of ability, but if you have the practice it sounds like you do then it shouldn't be that hard if you resolve and try and pay attention. Anyway, read those chapters, and see what resonates. Not everyone will experience everything in the Progress of Insight chapter, but it should give you a sense of what may have been what.

4) Vivid dreams after openings and fast vibrations in one place make me think A&P territory.

5) It sounds like you have all sorts of horsepower and ability: try inclining it to some specific tasks and attainments and see what you can do, such as insight stages, jhanas, etc. as this will help you understand your capabilities better and help you get on the same terminological page as many here, which can help communication, and, if you have the capability to access these things, why not?

6) I hope that a critical mass of Goenka practitioners who are finding the open spirit here and meditation technology and terminology will take this stuff back to Goenka's tradition so that it has all that Goenka offers and all this place offers and will be the more profound and empowered and clear for it.

I suspect others will chime in with their thoughts and questions also. Let us know how your experiments go.

Helpful?

Daniel
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Daniel Johnson, modified 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 9:18 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 9:18 PM

RE: Am I on the map or off the map?

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
Hey there,

I didn't have much of a comment, but I read the title of your post and I got real amusement out of "off the map." I like this phrase.... like: "Yo, Dude! That was like totally Off Da' Map! Yo!"

So John, you're off da' map in my book, brotha.

Anyway, sorry for the stupid joke. Welcome to the forum.

- Daniel J.
John White, modified 13 Years ago at 8/23/10 11:42 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/23/10 11:19 AM

RE: Am I on the map or off the map?

Posts: 61 Join Date: 8/16/10 Recent Posts
Thank you both Daniels, for your responses, and Daniel J. for your welcome. Off da map - that's funny! Didn't think of it that way. Actually I was referring to Ken Kesey's on the bus or off the bus, but I like your take much better. "How was your retreat? Off da map!"

Daniel I., your advice sounds excellent, I am massively appreciative, and two weeks ago there would have been no question, no hesitation, I would have lunged in, and I still may - but now I'm really wondering how to proceed, and this is because of AF. I came across the AF site a couple years ago, was intrigued but not drawn in. Now I feel very drawn in, and this is because of the reports by those of you who have traveled much further along the insight path than I have.

So at the moment I am very interested in experimenting, in finding a way to both develop insight and cultivate PCE's. I want to keep at least one foot on the insight path for now - and if I sense that the direct route to AF is doable for me, it could mean I'll be venturing off da map, will see. I do have questions regarding this, which I'll ask in one of the AF threads.

Daniel I, regarding stream entry, after reading 'Was that Emptiness' it's clear, there's been no dipping here. I don't recall entering the gap you describe at any time. I think I would have remembered this. But because of this amazing site, and guidance, I now feel its totally possible, and most likely earlier than I would have ever imagined, should I proceed on this path.

Also, regarding this site, the taboo dissolution, the honesty and open mindedness, the willingness to take on any and every subject has been so, so refreshing, liberating, inspiring, encouraging, sane. I was particularly blown away by Daniel I's honesty, open mind, and sense of adventure in the Hurricane Ranch AF talks. Wow. Has the feeling of potential paradigm shift to me.

And Daniel I, regarding your comment on Goenka centers - "I hope that a critical mass of Goenka practitioners who are finding the open spirit here and meditation technology and terminology will take this stuff back to Goenka's tradition so that it has all that Goenka offers and all this place offers and will be the more profound and empowered and clear for it." - for sure, that would be fantastic, and who knows, it could happen. After the 20 day I just finished, I sensed some cracks in the rigid order. Two old timer AT's (assistant teachers) took the course, and I was happy to find they were really nice, enthusiastic, glowing guys, who hung out with Goenka back in the 80's, and told some stories that greatly increased my respect for him. Unfortunately at the time I hadn't found this site, so I didn't grill them about maps and attainments, but I think they would have been open to such questions.

After the course about 15 of us went to a lake, swam, hung out on the shore and basked in the glorious afterglow. It was a really wonderful sangha experience, and being away from the center much more relaxed and open. One of the AT's, stepping out of the lake, sensing my attraction to a very beautiful and lovely student, faked an elbow check to my face, which caused quite a reaction, mostly surprise and hilarity that an AT would actually show emotion, especially one that could be perceived as aggression. One guy joked "I'm curious, where did you learn that technique? Is that what you do to disobedient students during interviews?" "Just joking!" he emphatically said - was very enjoyable to tease him.

ps - what would also be awesome, besides a revolution at Goenka centers: a DhO retreat center